Can Rits replace MMs?
silversix
N/D nough said........
GaladrielMoloch
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
No, not really. necro MM bomber does not heal and cleanse conditions from your frontline, nor does he have double bomb (on creation, on death) ... etc. 4 more dm is meaningless when you bomb overall more.
o.O that really is retarded when you look at it, both builds only have a few skills dealing directly with the minions for damage, i.e.
Necro: JB/BotM/animate minions/death nova
Rit: animate minions/BotM/explosive growth/death nova etc.
so I fail to see how a necro MM as a bomber cannot bring untility. I mean just look at Sab's MM, Aegis/Prot Spirit/Extinguish etc depending on area you are going into. An older bomber I ran Dwayna's Summoning for a laugh in NM PvE.
Following that logic, Rits need an energy management skill as well which drops down their utility whilst Necros don't since it is inbuilt into their primary.
Looking at the DPS that a Rit will do over a Necro, explosive growth hits for what 55 damage? so if they are in range of animation they get hit for 55x2, and frontline critters will generally get hit for the 55 on death and because of the increased health of the minions this is largely spaced out damage (which also helps with e-management, less healing, re-casting etc.) so can be considered negligible. I'd much rather as a bomber to pump out more minions, and cast death nova on them multiple times. Also as someone else said, Hero's do such a good job with a JB bomber build ^^.
And to answer the OP's question, Necros > Rits as MMs. Soul Reaping & higher level minions > more health.
Necro: JB/BotM/animate minions/death nova
Rit: animate minions/BotM/explosive growth/death nova etc.
so I fail to see how a necro MM as a bomber cannot bring untility. I mean just look at Sab's MM, Aegis/Prot Spirit/Extinguish etc depending on area you are going into. An older bomber I ran Dwayna's Summoning for a laugh in NM PvE.
Following that logic, Rits need an energy management skill as well which drops down their utility whilst Necros don't since it is inbuilt into their primary.
Looking at the DPS that a Rit will do over a Necro, explosive growth hits for what 55 damage? so if they are in range of animation they get hit for 55x2, and frontline critters will generally get hit for the 55 on death and because of the increased health of the minions this is largely spaced out damage (which also helps with e-management, less healing, re-casting etc.) so can be considered negligible. I'd much rather as a bomber to pump out more minions, and cast death nova on them multiple times. Also as someone else said, Hero's do such a good job with a JB bomber build ^^.
And to answer the OP's question, Necros > Rits as MMs. Soul Reaping & higher level minions > more health.
You can't see me
Soul Reaping > Ritualist Skills.
Kthanxbaii.
Kthanxbaii.
Teh [prefession]-zorz
Ive tried using a Rit MM [i dont have any necro heros] and sadly it does not preform up to my pwnage standards :P
Whirlwind
Yep theres no question about it soul reaping > Rit. Why do you think people are whining about soul reaping being overpowered? Whether it actually is or not isn't even the point. It's the fact that its powerful enough for people to think it may be, and that pretty much seals the deal, why would you choose to not have it?
Moloch Vein
I have experience of both main strains. There is no question the necromancer minion bomber is superior in PvE if run correctly.
First of all, the damage done by Explosive Growth is not armor ignoring and is thus level dependant. Compare this to the stronger Death Nova delivered by a necromancer MB. A DM16 Death Nova does 20 more armor ignoring damage. That means it will actually do 105 damage to every monster in the game which is a huge plus. It also will come as a single packet which is again a plus against most common shielding spells used by monster monks.
Second, energy. While Boon of Creation looks pretty, the truth is that a Rt MB actually still runs Bone Minions at an energy deficiency, while the N MB gains energy from casting the spell over the long run. Add to this the passive benefits of every death in half radar range and you have a very uneven field indeed.
Third, maintainability. This seems a very common misconception, and now we have to discuss MMs here, because the maintainability of minions for a MB is a moot point. The army of a Rt minion master will not by any means be easier to maintain, in or out of combat. People note that Rt minions will have higher health due to Spawning Power. This is correct, the Rt minions will generally have about 35% more health. They will also have a lot weaker armor, so they'll take more damage. Combine this with the fact that Blood of the Master will heal for less at 12 Death Magic, and the self-healing options for the MM are limited since he is restricted to the N secondary. It's no contest.
Fourth, utility. This is a pretty silly notion. A ritualist MB will have to pack Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth just to get anywhere near what necromancer MBs do naturally - inflict more damage (in this case through Death Nova) and regain energy. This leaves a six slot bar, and of course, a lock to the N secondary, plus a huge needed investment into Spawning Power - a line with a lot of useful skills, don't you think... Again, it's no contest.
Fifth, adaptability and vulnerabilities. A Rt MM or MB can be shut down almost completely through enchantment removal. Spirit's Gift, Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth all have 45 seconds recharge. While many MM builds rely on a lot of enchantments this is by no means the only option for a necromancer, and N is also capable of bringing swift, fast-recharging cover enchantments, not to mention even Dark Bond and Infuse Condition recharge faster than the skills noted above. a Rt MB must use at least two of these enchantments.
First of all, the damage done by Explosive Growth is not armor ignoring and is thus level dependant. Compare this to the stronger Death Nova delivered by a necromancer MB. A DM16 Death Nova does 20 more armor ignoring damage. That means it will actually do 105 damage to every monster in the game which is a huge plus. It also will come as a single packet which is again a plus against most common shielding spells used by monster monks.
Second, energy. While Boon of Creation looks pretty, the truth is that a Rt MB actually still runs Bone Minions at an energy deficiency, while the N MB gains energy from casting the spell over the long run. Add to this the passive benefits of every death in half radar range and you have a very uneven field indeed.
Third, maintainability. This seems a very common misconception, and now we have to discuss MMs here, because the maintainability of minions for a MB is a moot point. The army of a Rt minion master will not by any means be easier to maintain, in or out of combat. People note that Rt minions will have higher health due to Spawning Power. This is correct, the Rt minions will generally have about 35% more health. They will also have a lot weaker armor, so they'll take more damage. Combine this with the fact that Blood of the Master will heal for less at 12 Death Magic, and the self-healing options for the MM are limited since he is restricted to the N secondary. It's no contest.
Fourth, utility. This is a pretty silly notion. A ritualist MB will have to pack Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth just to get anywhere near what necromancer MBs do naturally - inflict more damage (in this case through Death Nova) and regain energy. This leaves a six slot bar, and of course, a lock to the N secondary, plus a huge needed investment into Spawning Power - a line with a lot of useful skills, don't you think... Again, it's no contest.
Fifth, adaptability and vulnerabilities. A Rt MM or MB can be shut down almost completely through enchantment removal. Spirit's Gift, Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth all have 45 seconds recharge. While many MM builds rely on a lot of enchantments this is by no means the only option for a necromancer, and N is also capable of bringing swift, fast-recharging cover enchantments, not to mention even Dark Bond and Infuse Condition recharge faster than the skills noted above. a Rt MB must use at least two of these enchantments.
Bargamer
Explosive Growth is wider and a single cheap spell, versus the frantic Death Nova spamming, which costs keep mounting up. Boon of Creation USED to run at an Energy surplus, but it was nerfed to be more balanced. We can regen both of the costs out of combat if we wanted to, or in combat while we wait for recharging skills. Essentially, we're casting Animates for a measly 3E, that we benefit from NOW, guaranteed. Add JB's 5E cost in, and it's 6E benefit, and that cost shrinks to 2E. If a Necro had an Animate that cost 2-3E and got him 2 useful minions and got him at least 1 other benefit, EVERY Necro would carry it. Rits get at least 6 other benefits from that Animate. It's no contest.
Unlike post-nerf SR, Spawning Power GETS every energy trigger it deserves. The fact is that the Necro's post-nerf SR never SEES all the energy it would be getting pre-nerf from deaths, and usually gets it when it doesn't need it. Spawning Power's skills actively returns energy as needed, as proven by Boon and Reclaim Essence, and passively with help from Jagged Bones and Shambling Horror.
Maintainability is a laughably flawed comparison to make here, because the means to the ends of the two builds are completely different. Why switch from the Necro MB to the Necro MM? That kind of invalidates the first two paragraphs of your post. But to answer: We don't give a darn if our minions die, because we get twice as many per corpse as most Necros, who don't bother with Bone Minions. Heck, we WANT them to die, using the minion cap exploit if we have to, and we can very quickly start our explosions from the very first Animate. Necro MMs typically have to wait until they have 2-3 minions to get the ball rolling, with too many false starts. Also, with max Spawning, we get +64% more health, not 35%, which most closely corresponds with 9 Spawning Power. What lvl 20 MB runs 9 Spawning?? That health gives us a buffer against minion degen in and out of combat, with Signet of Creation also in combat. Yes, it's closest comparison is Verata's Sacrifice, but SP is passive, while Verata's is active. As for self-heals, we have Boon's 50 health per minion, possibly Spirit's Gift, and since we are dipping into the Necro line, the only one we NEED is Taste of Death. To ask a Necro to take Taste of Death is ridiculous, he needs every one of the minions he can Animate, and is forever maintaining it afterwards. ToD is also a waste of a slot, in the Necro's opinion. The Rit pulls out ahead, with more benefits from both their professions. Furthermore, the Bone Minion's armor can't be any worse than the Bone Fiend's armor, and the Rit's Minion's health tips the comparison in the Rit's favor.
Utility IS a silly notion. Rit MBs are hybrids, and proudly so. While you Necros MM/MBs are spamming Nova over and over, we've delegated that chore to our Necro Hero, who is better than 80% of the human players out there. Meanwhile, Necro-mains have to devote tons of points into both SR and Death Magic, while balancing out enough points to make their secondary worth it. Echo, Heal Area, Mystic Regen, etc. That's three attribute lines they have to juggle, to the Rit's two.
Ah, Enchantment removal. As with any balanced build, we have our weaknesses. In such cases, we might adapt freely with the area, and bring Reclaim Essence for E-management, and/or mini-spike-with-AOE-aftertaste with Putrid Bile+Necrosis, and our bar doesn't suffer all that much for the change. We might get clever and put on our own cover Enchantments, such as Spirit's Gift or Dwayna's Sorrow (from our Monk Hero,) or trick them into stripping them from our minions, who are in melee range and therefore, higher priority AI targets. However, none of these drawbacks are nearly as bad as the Necro's weaknesses, which is it's own fickle Primary (Boon is more stable), interrupts (except for our Enchants, the rest have low recharges), AOEs on your Fiends (HAHAHA, go ahead, kill our minions, see what they do to ya!), scarcity of corpses (Rits get twice as many), or constantly worry about saccing health (Rits GET health from minions, not the other way around).
With every new Campaign, the Necro gets smacked with another nerf, while the Rit/N sees nothing but more and more juicy choices. Again, the minion cap is an EXPLOIT, if making minions die is what you WANT them to do! The only benefit the Necro gets from a new minion versus an old minion is resetting the degen counter, which to me smells of plugging your finger in the dike wall. You'll always be fighting degen, and it lends the Necro a slightly frantic tempo. I strongly suspect the reason Necros are so obsessed with maintaining their percieved MM Championship is just a way to relieve some of those frantic feelings. Meanwhile, the Rit has nothing but stress-free answers. The Rit/N's tempo is slower, more steady, more sustainable, and ultimately, more fun.
I consider it a choice piece of poetic justice that SR no longer gets Energy from Spirits, while Rits can steal freely from the Necro's skills, and not get so much as an official warning. Necros can Resto-heal, vamp our spirit's Energy in PVP, and buddy up when they MM with us, but when we try to Minion Bomb, a forgotten concept among most Necro MMs, you get all up in arms and scream that you guys are just inherently better, and so we don't deserve to live.
The Necro MM's concept is as old as Core, and will never regain it's former glory, while the Rit's will continue to grow and evolve. Rit MBs have yet to be nerfed in any significant way, while Necro MMs gets beaten like the proverbial dead horse, which is what this thread has degenerated to.
In conclusion, repetitio ad nauseum... Get over it, okay? This is PVE. There's nothing preventing a player from making both a Necro and a Rit MM, character slots or Hero-wise, and finding out for themselves how they want to play. Or team up with me for a Vizunah Square run, and see who can MB the best.
Unlike post-nerf SR, Spawning Power GETS every energy trigger it deserves. The fact is that the Necro's post-nerf SR never SEES all the energy it would be getting pre-nerf from deaths, and usually gets it when it doesn't need it. Spawning Power's skills actively returns energy as needed, as proven by Boon and Reclaim Essence, and passively with help from Jagged Bones and Shambling Horror.
Maintainability is a laughably flawed comparison to make here, because the means to the ends of the two builds are completely different. Why switch from the Necro MB to the Necro MM? That kind of invalidates the first two paragraphs of your post. But to answer: We don't give a darn if our minions die, because we get twice as many per corpse as most Necros, who don't bother with Bone Minions. Heck, we WANT them to die, using the minion cap exploit if we have to, and we can very quickly start our explosions from the very first Animate. Necro MMs typically have to wait until they have 2-3 minions to get the ball rolling, with too many false starts. Also, with max Spawning, we get +64% more health, not 35%, which most closely corresponds with 9 Spawning Power. What lvl 20 MB runs 9 Spawning?? That health gives us a buffer against minion degen in and out of combat, with Signet of Creation also in combat. Yes, it's closest comparison is Verata's Sacrifice, but SP is passive, while Verata's is active. As for self-heals, we have Boon's 50 health per minion, possibly Spirit's Gift, and since we are dipping into the Necro line, the only one we NEED is Taste of Death. To ask a Necro to take Taste of Death is ridiculous, he needs every one of the minions he can Animate, and is forever maintaining it afterwards. ToD is also a waste of a slot, in the Necro's opinion. The Rit pulls out ahead, with more benefits from both their professions. Furthermore, the Bone Minion's armor can't be any worse than the Bone Fiend's armor, and the Rit's Minion's health tips the comparison in the Rit's favor.
Utility IS a silly notion. Rit MBs are hybrids, and proudly so. While you Necros MM/MBs are spamming Nova over and over, we've delegated that chore to our Necro Hero, who is better than 80% of the human players out there. Meanwhile, Necro-mains have to devote tons of points into both SR and Death Magic, while balancing out enough points to make their secondary worth it. Echo, Heal Area, Mystic Regen, etc. That's three attribute lines they have to juggle, to the Rit's two.
Ah, Enchantment removal. As with any balanced build, we have our weaknesses. In such cases, we might adapt freely with the area, and bring Reclaim Essence for E-management, and/or mini-spike-with-AOE-aftertaste with Putrid Bile+Necrosis, and our bar doesn't suffer all that much for the change. We might get clever and put on our own cover Enchantments, such as Spirit's Gift or Dwayna's Sorrow (from our Monk Hero,) or trick them into stripping them from our minions, who are in melee range and therefore, higher priority AI targets. However, none of these drawbacks are nearly as bad as the Necro's weaknesses, which is it's own fickle Primary (Boon is more stable), interrupts (except for our Enchants, the rest have low recharges), AOEs on your Fiends (HAHAHA, go ahead, kill our minions, see what they do to ya!), scarcity of corpses (Rits get twice as many), or constantly worry about saccing health (Rits GET health from minions, not the other way around).
With every new Campaign, the Necro gets smacked with another nerf, while the Rit/N sees nothing but more and more juicy choices. Again, the minion cap is an EXPLOIT, if making minions die is what you WANT them to do! The only benefit the Necro gets from a new minion versus an old minion is resetting the degen counter, which to me smells of plugging your finger in the dike wall. You'll always be fighting degen, and it lends the Necro a slightly frantic tempo. I strongly suspect the reason Necros are so obsessed with maintaining their percieved MM Championship is just a way to relieve some of those frantic feelings. Meanwhile, the Rit has nothing but stress-free answers. The Rit/N's tempo is slower, more steady, more sustainable, and ultimately, more fun.
I consider it a choice piece of poetic justice that SR no longer gets Energy from Spirits, while Rits can steal freely from the Necro's skills, and not get so much as an official warning. Necros can Resto-heal, vamp our spirit's Energy in PVP, and buddy up when they MM with us, but when we try to Minion Bomb, a forgotten concept among most Necro MMs, you get all up in arms and scream that you guys are just inherently better, and so we don't deserve to live.
The Necro MM's concept is as old as Core, and will never regain it's former glory, while the Rit's will continue to grow and evolve. Rit MBs have yet to be nerfed in any significant way, while Necro MMs gets beaten like the proverbial dead horse, which is what this thread has degenerated to.
In conclusion, repetitio ad nauseum... Get over it, okay? This is PVE. There's nothing preventing a player from making both a Necro and a Rit MM, character slots or Hero-wise, and finding out for themselves how they want to play. Or team up with me for a Vizunah Square run, and see who can MB the best.
Moloch Vein
Most of the stuff you wrote above was too convoluted to make any real sense.
Yes, Soul Reaping has been nerfed, but it is still way stronger than anything a Rt/N can bring, even by sacrificing his elite slot for it. Notice how you throw out sacrificing your elite slot (with Reclaim Essence) just to perform the function necromancers do naturally.
I'm not "up in arms", I'm actually discussing the issue, as you should understand if you wanted to show at least a modicum of respect for the one you're debating with.
Some other points:
* Ritualists do not get 4 bone minions from each casting. They only get the same as the old, boring necromancers do.
* Ritualist investment in Death Magic is the same as N, 12. Ritualist investment in Spawning Power needs to be higher than N investment in Soul Reaping.
* The idea that you can compare the inherent passive effect of the Soul Reaping attribute to an enchantment with a 45 seconds recharge is baffling.
* Jagged Bones costs the Ritualist 1-2e and gains the Necromancer around 6e.
* You are consistenly mixing up Ritualists with Minion Bombers and Necromancers with Minion Masters. Necromancers can be minion bombers.
* I addressed sustainability because it's a point that's been made in the thread, not because it was related to minion bomber, as you would have seen if you'd bothered reading the post thoroughly.
* If a Rt/N MB isn't "spamming Nova over and over", as you put it, he's not much of a minion bomber. However, he's still tied to his N secondary. a N MB can bring any sort of support/utility spells from the P, Mo, or whatever line, and function adequately with those. Cutting the reliance on maintaining an army makes build options for MBs much wider - however, those can't be realized fully by a Rt, since he is stuck at Rt/N.
Yes, Soul Reaping has been nerfed, but it is still way stronger than anything a Rt/N can bring, even by sacrificing his elite slot for it. Notice how you throw out sacrificing your elite slot (with Reclaim Essence) just to perform the function necromancers do naturally.
I'm not "up in arms", I'm actually discussing the issue, as you should understand if you wanted to show at least a modicum of respect for the one you're debating with.
Some other points:
* Ritualists do not get 4 bone minions from each casting. They only get the same as the old, boring necromancers do.
* Ritualist investment in Death Magic is the same as N, 12. Ritualist investment in Spawning Power needs to be higher than N investment in Soul Reaping.
* The idea that you can compare the inherent passive effect of the Soul Reaping attribute to an enchantment with a 45 seconds recharge is baffling.
* Jagged Bones costs the Ritualist 1-2e and gains the Necromancer around 6e.
* You are consistenly mixing up Ritualists with Minion Bombers and Necromancers with Minion Masters. Necromancers can be minion bombers.
* I addressed sustainability because it's a point that's been made in the thread, not because it was related to minion bomber, as you would have seen if you'd bothered reading the post thoroughly.
* If a Rt/N MB isn't "spamming Nova over and over", as you put it, he's not much of a minion bomber. However, he's still tied to his N secondary. a N MB can bring any sort of support/utility spells from the P, Mo, or whatever line, and function adequately with those. Cutting the reliance on maintaining an army makes build options for MBs much wider - however, those can't be realized fully by a Rt, since he is stuck at Rt/N.
frojack
^^
All this completely overshadowed by the fact that minions mostly suck to...
All this completely overshadowed by the fact that minions mostly suck to...
Moloch Vein
The viability of the basic strategy was not in discussion. Nevertheless you are wrong.
Splitisoda
I tried doing a Rit MM, and a Necro MM, and I did fairly better with Necro. My reasons for this are probably
A: As a Necro I had a tanking build really, and it put me in lowish health where i could regenerate it faster.
B: Everyone wants to kill the stinking rits...
I could probably do A too, but then if i am a rit i need to invest alot in spawning power so it will actually have a good effect when i summon a minion.
And yeah Olias is da owns
sticking jagged bones was the 2nd best thing ive ever done.
A: As a Necro I had a tanking build really, and it put me in lowish health where i could regenerate it faster.
B: Everyone wants to kill the stinking rits...
I could probably do A too, but then if i am a rit i need to invest alot in spawning power so it will actually have a good effect when i summon a minion.
And yeah Olias is da owns
sticking jagged bones was the 2nd best thing ive ever done.
Bargamer
Believe me, I read your post quite thoroughly, and I respect you as a fellow GW player, but obviously, posting at 3AM does nothing for me. Your post and points are good, but I refuted each of them in my monstery convoluted reply. Oh well.
Now that I am good and awake, my new reply is, "Pssh, whatever. I like playing a Rit/N Bomber. It's lots of fun. Give it a try if you want, it's only PVE."
Have a good day, sir.
Now that I am good and awake, my new reply is, "Pssh, whatever. I like playing a Rit/N Bomber. It's lots of fun. Give it a try if you want, it's only PVE."
Have a good day, sir.
Bobby2
I very much like the concept of minion bombing. That's why I'm gonna pair Xandra with Master of Whispers
I'm way too lazy myself!
I'm way too lazy myself!