Where the hell is this Time> skill factor you all talk about?

Hear it everyday on guru, ah GW rewards time more than skill now blah.

1st of all, You do not need a title Ever to be able to beat the game.
If your saying what about 10k faction needed, that is not rewarding your time over skill, you can just Ab that if you want too and have some fun and if 10k Faction takes you a long time....Im gonna find someone to pray for you.

Title grind.
You do not need Lightbringer, you do not need Sunspear title (except for that 1 quest, which isn't a biggy...didnt they change that to Nightfall chars only?)

Ursan...lol you don't need ursan to beat the game.

Titles
Most Titles don't even do anything for petes sake your just whining because you can't get them quickly. GW is a game and to keep people interested it gives a form of grind to people who like that. No grinding title is a necessity to pass the game, you don't need to max a title to beat the game.

Grinding isn't going to even do much in PvP since OP pve skills do not exist to take power from that.

Most of you don't pug anyways so why do you care about if pugs won't take you?
Get a guild.

This omfg Grind titles ruin the game thing, nonsense. GW does not require you to grind to ever do well in the game, if you believe you cannot do well in the game thats because you do not have the skill to do so anyways so why do you want your imaginary skill>time when you don't have the skill anyways?

GW has Pve, look at any MMO there is a grind pretty much (very few cases...and they have gold grind =P)

You don't need Fow armor or Ancient armor (most of em are THE fugly) anyways.
You don't need 30k balthazar cap.
You don't need Glad's title (which BTW....you can get from skill)
You don't need Drunkard, Sweet tooth etc.

Because of Rainbow phoenix? Getting Masters on all missions, is something you would do if you liked pve anyways so thats 1 wtf,Getting Cartographer is just something you do, no real effect on the game, Survivor is for those who want a challenge (although you can get it cheaply if you wish....the Easy way)


is it because of favor? Notice how Favor is on almost all day (except late at night really) so once again....no big deal.

Because PVE skills/Ursan are strong? You don't need them to do well, you don't need them to do anything in the game, if you want to use these skills then play through the game.

Vanquisher exists as a way to get exp and money, and add role-play value. If you don't want to play pve anymore anyways Don't.

I must be missing something, so someone inform me wtf im missing/

My thoughts on titles:

I get the ones I like
I dont get the ones I dont
I play for fun
Im a scrub

Well Skill is greater than time if you just want to be a casual player but if you want to be one of those hardcore players sporting their little phoenix emotes you need way more time than skill trust me. To max out any title you need more time than skill. Sure titles are optional, but after you beat the game on 8different characters what good does beating the game again do you? I keep playing for PvP, titles, and to gather some great equipment. I actually like titles because they keep me busy.

To put it shortly: people are stupid.

People on this board type messages because they have nothing better to do on their spare time. If you fail a mission X you come here and and say that mission X is too difficult nerf pl0x. If someone turns down your offer for PUG, it's essay time about how PvE and PUGs are dead period. If you see more than two people mentioning something like Ursan Blessing on local chat (which you don't have), the immediate result is thread stating that Ursan Blessing kills the game nerf pl0x.

Who said you had to construct intelligent arguments here? Who said that you should give reasons for you opinions? Who said that you should put references to your threads when you're stating things like "majority of people have...", "PvP players think that..."? This isn't some kind of forum for educated people. Anything goes. I wouldn't know if half of the people used sarcasm on every post they make.

You are an exception with this post, Ensoriki. Let's see what kinds of answers we get.

Apparently the words "PvE skills" are not enough.

You don't even need a full skill bar to beat the game. What's your point?

Guild Wars is not an MMO.

That's not what's wrong with them. It's the fact that they become stronger the more you grind a title, hence promoting Time Spent > Skill.

Of course, quite a few have the problem of being ridiculously overpowered in themselves (eh hem UB, "SY!", "TNTF!")...

oh no here we go again skill>time spent but it should read time = skill.

The problem with all the pve skills and title effects is not that they're required to finish the storyline, but rather that they give players a direct competitive advantage over others. The level playing field was what made guildwars a great game and sadly now that is gone.

In an ideal world, superpowered skills and effects would not exist, but if anet is going to put them in to allow high end content to be made more of a cakewalk, then they need to make access to the effects just as accessible.

- "time > skill" is a mathematical inequation. We could say that 5 > 3 "Five is greater than 3", because 5 and 3 are both numbers and thus reside in same "domain". Time and skill have nothing to do with one another and you can't compare them like this.

PvE skills get better as you advance in their respective title tracks, but this is nowhere near complete explanation why you think spending "time" yields better rewards than using "skill" to get them.

- PvE skills are skills which you can use only in PvE against AI opponent. They can't be used in PvP where PvE skill holder would have advantage over those who didn't have the skill. Thus your claim is false.

If I need an internet connection to play it, if there are people from around the world in the same game with me. If its massive
Im calling it a damn MMO
"Oh but instancing" >.> Go play Nostale...has instancing..still an MMO

In the time it takes to grind these max titles
Not only have you beaten the game, you have had time to get Protector on that campaign , if you did not master ANY mission the 1st time. If you had, then you have time to get HM protector on each mission.
And done an ass chunk of quests, possibly vanquished 1-6 areas
This is if your going against some kinda HardCore knows what hes doing does it in 5 hours farmer

A distinct advantage they give? Considering Most of those titles are something your supposed to get just playing the game.
"Ah I feel like questing, Take the bounty and then lets go kill X monster"
You take the bounties as you play, if you were not doing so...whos fault is that?

The Leveled playing field?
May I show you the assassin and mesmer? Not wanted by the few remaining Pugs that exist?
That disadvantage only comes if you do not have that campaign/expansion actually, which BTW? You also have a skill disadvantage if you dont have all campaigns regardless of PVE skills or not.

I honestly don't get why everyone gets so fired up over some extra titles that require some grind to max.
How does it give the high time investors an edge? you get more effective Pve ONLY skills, and seeing as how PvE dosen't involve players competing I don't see how any "advantage" or w/e can be considered, aren't we working together in PvE?

And as far as the whole skill thing goes, yes those who are newer to the game won't be as skilled, it's called a learning curve. The point is, we can all only get so good, so time put in grows our skill only to a cut off point.

Since when is PvE "competitive"?

"skill>time" is short hand for the byline of guildwars
They allow a player to kill faster AI and while suffering fewer losses than than their fellow players, hence they give a direct competitive advantage in PvE.

For as long as people have been interacting.

Wait.

Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO
Are you competing against in PvE?

The only time you will compete is for a team.
Which does not matter if your an Ele, Monk or Necro ANYWAYS

I'll give you a very real example. My partner and I currently have a entry in the monthly high scores for Glint's Challenge (or at least last time I checked). If this were a pre-pve skill game, I would have been able to be proud of the fact however the score means nothing because I have Deldrimore rank 10 and a 5 second "save yourselves" whereas the vast majority of the people I'm competing against don't.

Level playing fields are what make sport fun.

- There's nothing contradictory to current state of the game. Besides it's pretty obvious that this refers to PvP with the word "compete" in context where (all?) previous games of the genre have had PvP system where better geared characters have dominated others.

- Compared to players with equal skill, yes, but the argument here was that the time you've spend getting these skills will give you better result than someone who is skilled in the game is going to get.

- Problem is in the challenge mission which shouldn't allow PvE skills or titles to mess scores. ANET has made a mistake.

Oh right Challenge Missions!!!

You know whats crazy?
If your a PvE character, your going to get Sunspear,Lightbringer,Alliance,Norn and Vanguard anyhow.

Why?
Take bounties whenever you can, if your playing the game your going to get it maxed. Also I dunno why don't you suggest banning PvE skills from challenge missions.

I must be crazy, for thinking that taking 5 seconds to run to a shrine take the bounty and continue is so hard.

It's less the "rewards" and more the "success": It goes against the saying "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate" (Prophecies box) an d then to level up your Norn title track and go pwn face in DoA with UB and a Paragon with "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"

You're disconnected from the playerbase through outposts and instances, and given the fact of how few are playing right now (may even be less than 1m), that's a lot of seperation. To me, each outpost is just like a chatroom in Diablo except in 3D (but with more annoying people and scammers).

Sure you can still "whisper" to people, but you could also do that in Starcraft. There's a guild and alliance chat, but there was also Vent and TS.

Nonetheless, the best reason *not* to call it an MMO is because it has nothing that MMO players want besides swords, monsters and scantily clothed girls: No endgame, no high-level caps, no gear progression...List goes on.

Sure, you can call it an MMO if you'd like, but don't be bitter if someone calls it a terrible game because of that. Solid RPG, boring MMO.

I'd normally be with you, but UB is an exception to this: R5 Norn is as shit to get, and that's really all that you need to be effective with it. Level it up higher and it's more ridiculous.

It's not terribly hard, you know.

/rant thread ftl. Couldn't you find one of those threads on this very subject that are buried and rez the thing so it can be properly closed?

KANE

In order to be as successful as someone of equal skill with maxed titles, you would need to spend over a thousand hours grinding.

Not obvious at all, especially when the statement applied perfectly to a pre-grind title PvE game.

Thats exactly the point - A less skilled player can do better than more skilled player by virtue of grinding.

It won't though. My MoTN toon finished with 9 in deldrimore and 6-7 in the others. My other 9 toons finshed EoTN with only 3-4 in all titles. If you reached 10 by the time you finished storyline, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

I've been meaning to, but thats only the place where its most self-evident. Competition exists all over PvE in the secondary forms of interplayer communication and freemarket economies.

- Skilled player can get UB and high-level areas can be completed certainly with other builds too. But that's beside the point. Some people have superior vigor in PvE and others don't, some have money for skills and equipment and are willing to farm golds and greens for weapon swaps. It makes no sense why PvE characters should have invariably same power level, but it's fundamental difference to other RPGS with PvP that each player has same statistics if he chooses to have. Latter was the "skill>time" vision.

- That makes no sense.

- Except that there's nothing to compete in PvE.

- You haven't shown any evidence how less skilled player with PvE skills can complete something that skilled player with moderate level PvE skills (or no PvE skills at all) couldn't do.

Sunspear: Only as much as required on NF characters - 2500 points, or r7. Otherwise you'll get barely anything. r10 is 50k, or 20 times what you are forced to grind.

Lightbringer: r2-3 through the storyline, or about 1000 points. r8 is 50k.

Alliance: 10k of forced grind, good for 1/5th of the first tier. 1/5th means nothing without the other 4/5ths. r12 is 10 million.

Norn and Vanguard: At the most, r3 or r4 from playing normally, plus 20k towards a title of your choice. That's 36k compared to 160k for r10.

Aside from forced grind for Sunspear, you won't even come close to max through normal play, unless your definition of normal play is grinding through areas repeatedly.

Competition existed before PVE skills.

5 Searing Flames Eles 1 necro 2 monks > PvE

5 assassins 1 mesmer 2 rit healers = WTF are you doing...lol nubs
So lets switch 2 rit healers for monks = WTF are you doing lol nubs
lets change 5 sins to 5 searing Flames eles = Dump the mesmer get a MM
Mesmers going: Ass hole
Person who said dump the mesmer: Were trying to pass this mission/ace this challenge mission, if you wanted to play then get a Ele/necro/Monk or warrior.

Alliance faction

Donating 5k to your guild = to 10k Points to the tite

So its actually just donating about 100x 10,000 -1,000.000
1000x 10k = 10 mil but that 10k was actually 5k faction not 10k

So you actually need to do it 500 times. 500 donates? If you want to help your guild this will come naturally.

All the PvE titles suggest that you get them along the way, oh sure theres a disadvantage to someone who Just started the game, but why should someone who just started in istan from Cantha be as good as someone who beat the game?

hence End-game green's HM etc.

Perhaps SS/LB are a grind.

Doing 20 minute SS/LB grind's wont kill you

20 minutes is enough to keep it from driving you insane from boredom.

That's not competition, it's just dumbasses who don't know how to play a character or form a party.

KANE

and empty skill bar and 7 henchmen > PVE, thats not the competition. The sport is in determining if your group better than the one that kicked the mes

Donating does nothing to help the vast, vast majority of guilds. Let me tell you that my R7 Kurzick title came anything but naturally - It was a result of killing stonereap et al over 2000 times.

And why should someone and who has beaten the game (r3-5) not be as good as someone that has spent 30 hours bookfarming (r10)?

Okay, this was written a little confusingly. Are you saying it makes no sense for PvE characters to all be equal?

Player A has all elite skills unlocked with no PvE skills.
Player B has all elite skills unlocked and a high rank in each title track and all PvE skills.
Player B will be more successful in PvE than Player A.

Uuuuursaaaaan Bleeeeeeesiiiiiing.

Ursan Blessing is less problematic then the other skills.

Considering no mater what your class is you can use Ursan's blessing to good affect it tears down this Mesmer/sin/Paragon NO TY idea.

The other skills promote it =P

just like every other of those title right? if u want to help out ur guildie in a elite area like DoA and go for crazy ursan style. it comes naturally that u grind ur norn. if u r a para and trying to raise TNTF, it also comes naturally that u grind ur SS rank. of course if u wanna go DoA with ur guildie, its also comes very naturally that u grind a bit of ur LB title. these are all very RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing NATURAL right? how the hell does 500 donate comes natural. for some people maybe it does, but for majority of people who don't have the time it is almost impossible to achieve. lets say a guy playes GW everyday. he spends 2 hours everyday on it. he chats and do those normal thing everyone else do. he donate twice everyday. it only going to take it 250 days to max his faction title. hey, its only 8 months. right?

please tell us the secret, how do u max ur ss/lb in 20 minutes? pretty sure u r talking about one trip of them.... u r right, 20 minutes is no big deal. but do it heaps of times of that 20 minutes, it isn't 20 minutes anymore.

and about that paragon no ty idea blah blah, did u read the paragon dirty thread? the paragon uses those 2 pve skill excessively and can make a party wide damage reduction to whatever 80% according to that guy's calculation. u simply can't achieve the same damage reduction with better skill.

You don't really need to max these titles to get use of the PVE skills though. Which I think was part of his point.

I don't have a real problem with any of them except the Faction based ones. Those piss me off to no end since I don't AB and I finished Factions on all 10 of my characters long before you were able to get bounties (which you have to PAY for to add insult to (imagined ) injury.

Bah.

---------------------

To OP: I think what people are referring to when they say that the PVE skills have changed the time vs. skill dynamic is in regards to the HM and elite areas of the game as it is not a great challenge to finish the regular parts of the game with just hero/hench and no PVE skills (aside from mission specific ones of course).

But for HM and Elite areas, some groups (no idea how many) insist on a high or maxed rank for the PVE skill that they feel is necessary to complete the area the way they want to do it. Given how powerful some of the skills are, that's a natural response, but it does mean that trying to join these kinds of groups for these areas offers better chances for those who have grinded a title vs. those who just play the game and know how to use the regular skills.

Since the people who do HM and elite areas tend to be the more hardcore players who probably have the time to max out these titles (though I realize that doesn't apply to all who want to spend time doing these areas), I'm not sure how much harm that does to the average player.

My position has been that while ANet has always said that skill would be more important than grind in order to play their game, I don't think they meant that all parts of the game would be accessible to all players. There will be barriers to entry to the higher end game content and this is simply one more.

Um. That actually is part of the problem. People aren't taking Mesmers, Assassin and Paragons because of their profession and skills, they're just taking them for UB.

if u have maximum rank in pve skills u r stronger than anyone with normal pvp skills or low ranks.
and its not skill dependent
so with gwen time>skill

remove pve skills or make them limited to gwen. they are beyond overpowered.....and make the hundreds of pvp balanced skills useles.

Since I don’t what to get involved in this flame war am going to go to the nearest Skill Trainer to buy Frigid Armor and reduce the damage done by all the Searing Flames you people are conjuring up.

See ya and don’t worry I’ll rez you if you kill each other.

/fail thats not how you do it
_____________

No they took away cards!!! Why god whY!?

The argument of "you don't have to use it" fails.
By this logic: a skill that kills any mob instantly - you don't have to use it, so it should remain in the game

Hehe, actaully I really liked Theo's post.
/me uses Arvatar of Melendru to avoid the flames.

This thread isn't about OVerPoweredness....ness-ness

Its about Skill>time / Time>Skill

Also Theo! This is how you do it
God Whos using [card]Conjure Flame[/card]. time to put on [card]Frigid Armor[/card] the [card]Ignorance[/card] is causing [card]Searing Flames[/card] I need a [card]Whirlwind[/card] to blow away this [card]Savannah Heat[/card] to reduce [card]fireball[/card] Damage.

He's talking about your point in that "things are optional." He meant that by your logic, some horribly overpowered skill wouldn't be a problem because it's optional.

He's saying that this stuff doesn't matter that it's optional, essentially.

Interesting point. One of the primary problems with the pve skills is that they are for the most part vastly more powerful than the normal ones. If they gave cosmetic enhancements rather than power enhancements it would remove all complaints from the skill>time crowd.

We have a winner!! Lately i'm seem many people on these boards complaining about GW then say they haven't played the game in months. How stupid is that? If you haven't played it in months then why the hell are you trolling a forum about it?

On topic, I work on titles that I feel are worth my time, I've maxed Sunspear, Lightbringer, Legendary Skill Hunter, Protector of each campain, & I'm working on Legendary Guardian, Legendary Vanquisher, Kurzick title, & the GWEN titles. After all they are keeping me busy until GW2 comes out.

Funny thing is, when I 1st took my monk to DoA she was R2 LB, just taking the blessing I hit R6 after I completed the whole Mallyx Quest once. Seems pretty natural to me.

I agree with the op titles are optional and people who think you need to max
them out to compete in pve are the ones that have no skill
Also who cares about time its a game I wasted thousands of hours on guild wars
and I loved every minute of it