One thing that always confused me about the assassins combo chain was why was it that if a off-hand failed to follow a lead it automatically missed? Why is that? We've got highly trained killers here. Why is it that if they don't to things precisely in order that they automatically miss? I mean you kick someone in a streetfighter game is does so much damage, you follow that up with a punch it does even more, not automatically miss.
So why can't we change the assassin skills? I mean the skills should still hit, but perhaps they're just not as effective if they're not in a combo. What if, for example he change Twisting Fangs to look like this:
Twisting Fangs - Dual Attack 10E 15R
If this attack hits struck takes +10...18 damage. If this attack follows and off-hand attack that foe also suffers from Bleeding and Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.
More examples might be:
Wild Strike - Off-Hand Attack 5E 4R
If this attack hits and stance being used by target foe ends. This attack cannot be blocked. If this attack follows a lead attack it strikes for +10...30 damage.
I'm not saying that all assassin attacks need to be changed this way, but in a few cases it would be nice.
Something else I thought of was the painful nerf to Horns of the Ox, and I thought of a way in where it can still be nerfed to prevent the insta-death that it used to be used for, but also not make it completely useless damage wise. As it is now, if your target is next to someone it's just a very low damage dual attack.
Horns of the Ox - Dual Attack 5E 12R
Must follow a off-hand attack. If this attack hits target foe takes +1...9 damage. If struck foe is adjacent to any allies, the foe takes an additional +6...18 damage. If not that foe is knocked down.
This wasy if the foe is alone he's kd'ed and doesn't instantly die. If the target is next to an ally they don't get knocked down, but get a decent damage bonus instead. NB: I was trying to find a way to word it in where this doesn't need to follow an off-hand (as per the other examples I've stated), but it's just sounded too awkward.
Other random examples going through the list, Black Spider could be strikes for +5...17. If that target is hexed it's poisoned for 5...17 seconds. Same could be for Falling Spider, but with KD'ed foes. Lotus Strike could be energy gain only if following a lead, etc.
Breaking the Chain
ShadowbaneX
![[DE]](/static/static/../Img/avatar38220_14.gif){kind=avatar}
[DE]
Quote:
One thing that always confused me about the assassins combo chain was why was it that if a off-hand failed to follow a lead it automatically missed? Why is that? We've got highly trained killers here. Why is it that if they don't to things precisely in order that they automatically miss? I mean you kick someone in a streetfighter game is does so much damage, you follow that up with a punch it does even more, not automatically miss.
It's because balancing around lore hurts the game way more than it could ever help it.
Marverick
Then every single lead attack in the game would be worthless. GG
Biostem
I'm confused - the icon for the off hand attack and dual attack is shaded unless I've hit w/ the prerequisite attack first. How are you using an off hand or dual attack w/o meeting the requirement?
ensoriki
This idea is wrong in many ways.
The only true reasoning, is that it makes sense. Balance and sense are not the same. It makes sense that poor countries would send children to war, its not balanced however in the children's favor.
It does not matter if you do not get a special condition.
If you allow people to spam dual attacks, they will do so, without care for those bonus conditions.
I can go L-O-D and get some nice conditions that help me kill
or I can go D-D-D and just plain kill them.
This entire idea of breaking the Chain is a tired and old discussion.
Few people actually put an intelligent idea or twist on the subject.
You are not one of those few unfortunately.
And since your idea is that it makes sense.
Doing more damage to someone, because they are beside someone, does not make sense.
The only true reasoning, is that it makes sense. Balance and sense are not the same. It makes sense that poor countries would send children to war, its not balanced however in the children's favor.
It does not matter if you do not get a special condition.
If you allow people to spam dual attacks, they will do so, without care for those bonus conditions.
I can go L-O-D and get some nice conditions that help me kill
or I can go D-D-D and just plain kill them.
This entire idea of breaking the Chain is a tired and old discussion.
Few people actually put an intelligent idea or twist on the subject.
You are not one of those few unfortunately.
And since your idea is that it makes sense.
Doing more damage to someone, because they are beside someone, does not make sense.
Bobby2
Basically what we've been hearing from Moriz; using out-of-chain attacks for a secondary benefit.
ensoriki
Only thing is Assassins do not need that.
It wouldn't work well on assassins, at all.
Thus this breaking the chain nonsense is of no help to assassins, as breaking our chains does not help us, because every suggestion of breaking the chain includes having severely gimped damage (generally no damage)
Which would never work with 7-17 damage weapons.
It wouldn't work well on assassins, at all.
Thus this breaking the chain nonsense is of no help to assassins, as breaking our chains does not help us, because every suggestion of breaking the chain includes having severely gimped damage (generally no damage)
Which would never work with 7-17 damage weapons.
Lorde
I do agree the chain thing is annoying.. I guess thats why I loved asscasting. Being melee is hard enough without worrying about a broken chain.
My suggestion is to use a chain with low recharge time, or join the world of asscasters.
My suggestion is to use a chain with low recharge time, or join the world of asscasters.
Bobby2
Welcome to the world of Moebius Strike. Who needs natural recharge anyway
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorde
I do agree the chain thing is annoying.. I guess thats why I loved asscasting. Being melee is hard enough without worrying about a broken chain.
My suggestion is to use a chain with low recharge time, or join the world of asscasters. Wrong, you love Assacasting because its broken.
Deadly paradox got nerfed and you came "I need a replacement!!"
Assacasting pretty damn much follows a chain
Dancing Daggers,Entangling Asp,Signet of Toxic Shock
Might as well call em L-O-D >.>
My suggestion is to use a chain with low recharge time, or join the world of asscasters. Wrong, you love Assacasting because its broken.
Deadly paradox got nerfed and you came "I need a replacement!!"
Assacasting pretty damn much follows a chain
Dancing Daggers,Entangling Asp,Signet of Toxic Shock
Might as well call em L-O-D >.>
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Wrong, you love Assacasting because its broken.
Deadly paradox got nerfed and you came "I need a replacement!!"
Assacasting pretty damn much follows a chain
Dancing Daggers,Entangling Asp,Signet of Toxic Shock
Might as well call em L-O-D >.> LOD in the truest sense, and I've encountered it
Augury-DD-EA-SoTS as normal... but apparently he didn't run Paradox as he followed up with Vampiric Assault-Impale
Now was that funny or what!?
Deadly paradox got nerfed and you came "I need a replacement!!"
Assacasting pretty damn much follows a chain
Dancing Daggers,Entangling Asp,Signet of Toxic Shock
Might as well call em L-O-D >.> LOD in the truest sense, and I've encountered it
Augury-DD-EA-SoTS as normal... but apparently he didn't run Paradox as he followed up with Vampiric Assault-Impale
Now was that funny or what!?
RPGmaniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biostem
I'm confused - the icon for the off hand attack and dual attack is shaded unless I've hit w/ the prerequisite attack first. How are you using an off hand or dual attack w/o meeting the requirement?
Press the button. It'll still activate but it won't hit because you didn't land the prerequisite.
samcobra
The reason that assassin skills have requirements for combo is because the skills by themselves would be way too powerful. For example.... Wild Strike.. unblockable hit + end stance every 4 seconds? ROFL
Similarly, the conditional effects of the assassin are in place exactly so that they will be conditional but have high reward. The problem with the assassin is when the condition becomes too easy to meet, the reward gets diminished. For example, synergy between deadly arts hexes and attacks requiring a hex have been a major focus of balance changes. As such, I don't think this is the right way to approach it. I do, however, believe that the assassin should have several viable builds to be able to take out about 500 health from a 60AL target in a few seconds.
The issue with almost all good assassin bars is skillbar space. There just isn't enough. To create a condition where you can do that much damage reliably in a short time pretty much takes up 6-7 skills in almost any assassin bar. Also, a huge portion of spikability comes from application of deep wound. As such, the assassin has very limited means to apply deep wound.
Basically, what it comes down to is that something simple like Eviscerate/Exectutioners can almost accomplish the same level of damage as an assassin with 2 slots versus 5 or 6. Generally, the strong spike power of the assassin has been taken to be balanced by their general inability to extend deep into the enemy to pressure like a warrior can. To overcome this, the assassin was given great mobility of field.
I honestly think that fixing assassins would need to involve diminishing returns on combo skills for the amount of damage or other conditional elements already done to the foe. This may include time between attacks.... "does x amount of damage minus x* the amount of time since the previous dagger attack used." Again, balance for the assassin is complex and plays on many factors, so a general rethinking of how many skills work would have to be done.
Similarly, the conditional effects of the assassin are in place exactly so that they will be conditional but have high reward. The problem with the assassin is when the condition becomes too easy to meet, the reward gets diminished. For example, synergy between deadly arts hexes and attacks requiring a hex have been a major focus of balance changes. As such, I don't think this is the right way to approach it. I do, however, believe that the assassin should have several viable builds to be able to take out about 500 health from a 60AL target in a few seconds.
The issue with almost all good assassin bars is skillbar space. There just isn't enough. To create a condition where you can do that much damage reliably in a short time pretty much takes up 6-7 skills in almost any assassin bar. Also, a huge portion of spikability comes from application of deep wound. As such, the assassin has very limited means to apply deep wound.
Basically, what it comes down to is that something simple like Eviscerate/Exectutioners can almost accomplish the same level of damage as an assassin with 2 slots versus 5 or 6. Generally, the strong spike power of the assassin has been taken to be balanced by their general inability to extend deep into the enemy to pressure like a warrior can. To overcome this, the assassin was given great mobility of field.
I honestly think that fixing assassins would need to involve diminishing returns on combo skills for the amount of damage or other conditional elements already done to the foe. This may include time between attacks.... "does x amount of damage minus x* the amount of time since the previous dagger attack used." Again, balance for the assassin is complex and plays on many factors, so a general rethinking of how many skills work would have to be done.
ensoriki
Um no...wasn't funny.
Anyways Breaking the Chain is stupid it actually gives no real benefits.
No way in hell Im breaking my current chain, to get some crappy stuff
When it only takes me 2-4 seconds to go through the chain in the 1st place and get the actual full strength. of it.
What your asking does 1 of 2 things.
1) Be completely useless because it sucks ass, Not just any ass, Fat man Ass.
2) Be Imbalanced, not just any kind of imbalanced, Avatar of Grenth,Avatar of Melandru,SP sin fused together (and the avatar buffs STACK) Kinda imbalance okay >.>
Lets see
Quote:
Twisting Fangs - Dual Attack 10E 15RAnyways Breaking the Chain is stupid it actually gives no real benefits.
No way in hell Im breaking my current chain, to get some crappy stuff
When it only takes me 2-4 seconds to go through the chain in the 1st place and get the actual full strength. of it.
What your asking does 1 of 2 things.
1) Be completely useless because it sucks ass, Not just any ass, Fat man Ass.
2) Be Imbalanced, not just any kind of imbalanced, Avatar of Grenth,Avatar of Melandru,SP sin fused together (and the avatar buffs STACK) Kinda imbalance okay >.>
Lets see
Quote:
If this attack hits struck takes +10...18 damage. If this attack follows and off-hand attack that foe also suffers from Bleeding and Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.
Twisting Fangs ENTIRE POINT, is the Deep wound and bleeding, The + damage is just so that the skill does not become useless after one use. when will +36 damage at 10 energy and 15R, ever be used over +36 damage Deep wound,Bleeding at 10 energy an 15 recharge (EVEN if your just reapplying the conditions)
Quote:
No, ever single lead attack would be required to make the off-hand attacks (well most of them) useful to their full effect. Yes, you could just use the off-hands without the leads, but they'd be missing bonuses.|
Wild Strike - Off-Hand Attack 5E 4R If this attack hits and stance being used by target foe ends. This attack cannot be blocked. If this attack follows a lead attack it strikes for +10...30 damage. Once again, why the hell am I using this my weapons damage is 7-17 and Only does Great damage if it Dual strikes and criticals on both hits (dual strikes from Innate dagger ability) I rather just switch to a target and get actual damage, using this on a warrior is like Finding out you have 1 day to live, you ask yourself "Whats the point". Your horns nerf makes me cry too Why would I want that Buff implemented, When A horns revert would not only be better, but do the same only simplified and sexier. Conclusion:Each idea you put is entirely, not worth coding, the only thing of any interest was the Horns of the Ox Idea because it was a buff. If you want the chain to be broken, unless you get an incredibly amazing fantastic idea, take a week and think it through instead. You've also nerfed these skills damage thinking that your idea makes most of them imba. Actually you stripped the core use of TF, and then Reduced its damage on Top of that. Genius.
Lorde
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Wrong, you love Assacasting because its broken.
Deadly paradox got nerfed and you came "I need a replacement!!" Assacasting pretty damn much follows a chain Dancing Daggers,Entangling Asp,Signet of Toxic Shock Might as well call em L-O-D >.> After grieving the loss of my lovely Paradox, I decided to create some other casting builds using a Sin. I had more success then I expected... if you decide to use toxic shock or holy strike (for example) you have several ways to poison / knockdown your enemy, but if you want to go use Twisting Fangs (again, example) you NEED to go melee and start a chain. When you have a dagger-chain you end up having it as your only source of damage. If there is a half-dead monk near you, you NEED to reach him and start you L-O-D... many times just -reaching- him took too long and I a simple "guardian" or "frenzied defense" saved him. I -do- created a melee chain I got comfortable within (fox fangs - wild strike - death blossom) with some condition removal, blocking and regen but I fell like I am playing a warrior. Asscasting opened a new way to play Sins to me, a more efficient one, at least for me. I think Assassins chains are... "fine". But there are lots of way to counter melee in the game. raddaman
Why give up the ability to counter diversion easily simply because it makes sense?
Besides, there would be little benefit from not using it in order anyway, and if you give the strong effect, twisting's DW or wild's stance removal, there would be a little reason to use the attacks that precede it. If you give it a weak effect, then people would use it in order.
MercenaryK
Breaking the chain is gay. Because of the chain I can unleash so much damage it's not even funny, and there's other effects with the damage.
In the Warriors ....... useless? thread there was a discussion of warriors effectiveness in melee, and I think some aspects apply to other melee as well (dervish/assassin). Much more blind and blocking and anti-melee aspects have increased in size/amount used as GW progressed. It's no longer c+space bar. Assassins have methods of countering block/blind, enchantments, and stances. Stripping that Monk of Guardian or Frenzied Defense now changes their priorities to high self preservation rather than their team. ShadowbaneX
Sometimes I wonder about people that play assassins. They're truely so far into they're 1-2-3 button smashing to actually realise anything. Breaking the Chain is just the title, namely there to grab attention and give an idea what the post is about. It's beginning to become clear that perhaps it wasn't the best title, but it's too late to change that. Evidently a few people in here managed to get what I was talking about, but for the sake of clarity, I'll explain for thoroughly.
What I'm suggesting is that you can still use a chain to roughly the same effectiviness as it is now. However, with what I'm suggesting if one of your attacks gets interrupted, diverted or other wise stopped, you'll still be able to use your other attacks, although not to full effect. As for the other comments about Moebius Strike/low recharge skills, here's the bar I've been playing with for a long, long time. It's not the greatest, but it suffices for what I play, which is PvE [skill]Jagged Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Eye[/skill][skill]Critical Agility[/skill][skill]Sunspear Rebirth Signet[/skill] Attributes 12+1+1 Dagger, 12+1 Critical Strikes. NOTE: I don't want this to degenerate into how my build sucks, or that it's missing a shadow step or blossom orwhatever, it's just here as an example for my reasoning in my OP. Ok, so say I'm hitting a target, I start my chain, Jagged, Wild, when the oh-so-wonderful AI manages to Disrupting Shot my Wild Strike. What do I do now, just wait for 20 seconds spamming Jagged Strike, or go take a quick leak while auto-attacking? I mean with the loss of that one skill, I'm useless until I get it back. Samthing can apply with other assassin builds. They're very fragile to skills like diversion, ripost, etc. Take out on link in the chain and the assassin can pretty much to sfa until that kill is recharged. Yeah, sure caster sins can pull off some crap, but I'm just talking about dagger assassins. With my idea, even with my off-hand being interrupted, I can restart the chain, in the middle of it if necessary, and then by using moebius get it up to full effect. So I hit Jagged, Wild gets locked down for 20 seconds. I then go in and hit Horns, which while being used at minimal effect because it doesn't follow an off-hand attack, (pay attention here because this is the important part) I CAN STILL DO SOMETHING OTHER THEN AUTO ATTACKING! (!) After that, I can chain in Moebius, hit Fangs, Moebius again, Horns, etc. Yes, I fully realise that just being able to spam off the full ability of the assassins skills independant of their chains would be broken. However, I'm trying to give skills that would be fully useful when chained, but would allow the resumption of the chain if it's broken by something else. On other thing that occured to me is the idea of adding to the chain going down. For instance a lead attack that says: "If this attack is followed by an off-hand attack, it does" effect x or +damage y...z. Just adding to things a little. ShadowbaneX
NOTE: I know I'm double posting, but it's intentional. This post is assorted replies to people that have replied to me. It's long as this is the first time I've checked back to this thread since posting it. Feel free to skip it if you haven't replied. If you have replied and I didn't reply to your comments, my appologies as I feel that your comments are somewhat tangental and have nothing to do with the topic.
Originally Posted by Marverick
Quote: |
Quote:
If you allow people to spam dual attacks, they will do so, without care for those bonus conditions.
I can go L-O-D and get some nice conditions that help me kill
or I can go D-D-D and just plain kill them.
This entire idea of breaking the Chain is a tired and old discussion.
Few people actually put an intelligent idea or twist on the subject.
You are not one of those few unfortunately.
And since your idea is that it makes sense.
Doing more damage to someone, because they are beside someone, does not make sense. You could just spam your duals, but with the dramatically reduced effect and damage then it would take much, much longer to actually kill the target. As for people going and doing stupid stuff, well, we still see mending/frenzy/heal sig whammos aggroing half the map...
As for the Horns alteration, let's look at it another way, you go and hit someone. If they're standing out alone by themselves you can send them to the ground. Now you run up and hit someone that's standing beside someone (wall, fence, 200+ pound guy wearing 100+ pounds of steel) might it not hurt just a little more being crushed up against that object? Granted, it's a game yeah, so instead of the 350+ pounds of flesh, muscle and steel, it might be some 90 pound asian monk instead, but then again, it's a game. That old saying "caught between a rock and a hard place" is sorta what I'm thinking here. The assassin is the hard place and the 'ally' is the rock. If you're caught between that you're crushed for extra damage. If that rock isn't there you're simply knocked to the ground. As it is I think Horns without the KD is subpar, and I wouldn't mind it seeing something of a buff to make it more useful when the target you're hitting is next to friendlies.
Quote: Originally Posted by Bobby2 Basically what we've been hearing from Moriz; using out-of-chain attacks for a secondary benefit. Other way around actually. Using in-chain attacks for full benefit, but actually being able to USE out-of-chain attacks to lesser benefit when part of the chain is disabled.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lorde My suggestion is to use a chain with low recharge time, or join the world of asscasters. Quote: Originally Posted by Bobby2 Welcome to the world of Moebius Strike. Who needs natural recharge anyway While you could not know it before as I didn't post the build I use, this is exactly what I do and I'm supporting this idea even with low recharge lead/off-hand skills and moebius.
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Originally Posted by samcobra
The reason that assassin skills have requirements for combo is because the skills by themselves would be way too powerful. For example.... Wild Strike.. unblockable hit + end stance every 4 seconds? ROFL Similarly, the conditional effects of the assassin are in place exactly so that they will be conditional but have high reward. The problem with the assassin is when the condition becomes too easy to meet, the reward gets diminished. Wild Strike is still unblockable and kills a stance every 4 seconds. The only difference is now is that I have to use Jagged first. When running up against a stance user, I sometimes hit just go hit another target, or if it's one I really want dead or there's no one left, I'll just sit there and spam Jagged until I do eventually hit and then I just go for Wild. Either way eventually that stance is coming down. With this method it just saves some aggrivation of waiting for pseudo-random numbers to decide that I've connected so I can get to Wild Strike. The bold part is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about still making it a long chain to get maximum effect, or shortening the chain, starting off in the middle somewhere to get reduced effect. I'm not saying that I'm only going to be running dual's and moebius, I'm still going to be keeping jagged and wild, it's just that should something happen to either of them, I think we should be able to do something other then pointless auto-attacking for -5. Quote:
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