The Flesh Golem
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Online Gamer
SO I have been looking around at MM builds but every time some says flesh golem in it a bunch of people say no get rid of it and get something usefull
WHY DOES EVERY ONE HATE FLESH GOLEM IT IS ONE OF THE STRONGER CREATURES IN THE GAME!!!! Well, you know how it is with kids. Whatever they like or think is "kewl" is the best thing - anything that they don't like is "junk". The truth of the matter is that there are pros & cons to using Flesh Golem - many of which have been mentioned here - and in the long run the differences are minor.
But you see, dissing Flesh Golem is one of those "leet" things that players spout off. It has more to do with being "kewl" or "leet" than the relative merits of it.
More meaningless myths:
Sundering is useless.
Rangers don't do damage.
Assassins are fragile.
Melee fighters have to have IAS.
Etc., etc. - the list goes on. If you find someone giving you advice that spouts off any of these "rulz", find someone else with a more balanced opinion.
WHY DOES EVERY ONE HATE FLESH GOLEM IT IS ONE OF THE STRONGER CREATURES IN THE GAME!!!! Well, you know how it is with kids. Whatever they like or think is "kewl" is the best thing - anything that they don't like is "junk". The truth of the matter is that there are pros & cons to using Flesh Golem - many of which have been mentioned here - and in the long run the differences are minor.
But you see, dissing Flesh Golem is one of those "leet" things that players spout off. It has more to do with being "kewl" or "leet" than the relative merits of it.
More meaningless myths:
Sundering is useless.
Rangers don't do damage.
Assassins are fragile.
Melee fighters have to have IAS.
Etc., etc. - the list goes on. If you find someone giving you advice that spouts off any of these "rulz", find someone else with a more balanced opinion.
Xylia
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Originally Posted by Rexion
the three basic MM builds are:
minion spammers (have like 4 minion-typed skills, a heal area, heal minions, and rez)
minion bomber (has a flesh golem and a bunch of horrors, when they die they cause disease)
*NEWEST BUILD THAT I JUST FOUND* SS necro with a bunch of horrors/vampiric. that one is teh sexorz -- turns people back on after your caps lock.
I never use flesh golem on a bomber build...that makes little sense, since you can't blow it up.
I will use it on a true minion master build (what you're referring to as a 'minion spammer' above) because of the recyclable corpse and because it is significantly more durable than the other meatshields. I would not recommend it in Hard Mode, as it no longer has the level advantage against most monsters.
It really depends on what you want. If you want pure damage, I wouldn't bring flesh golem. If you are more interested in body blocking and distracting enemies, then flesh golem may be right for you. If you are in an area that has enough corpses to support an army, but not much more, it is useful to have the recyclable corpse from the flesh golem, although not bringing an MM or bringing a bomber with bone minions is often better in these situations.
Heroes use Flesh Golem very poorly - if you're not playing the MM yourself, I would recommend bringing some other elite (probably jagged bones)
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Originally Posted by N E D M
Dont rule out this : [skill]tainted flesh[/skill]
I use on MM occasionally - might work out better on a hero tho EDIT: That is one muscular skeleton in the skill icon, lol Heroes are excellent with tainted flesh if you give them the chance to cast it on everyone.
Online Gamer
I donty really under stand though about aura of lich... It cuts ur healt in half so when you have like 480 or whatever you go down to 240... but then it cuts all damage in half(which can be good) but when you spam Botm it will do same ratio of damage....
cgruber
Combine it with healing breeze or mending and you will have a tough little necro. Or protective spirit and a low health build if you want to try a pseudo 55 style build.
BladeDVD
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Originally Posted by Online Gamer
I donty really under stand though about aura of lich... It cuts ur healt in half so when you have like 480 or whatever you go down to 240... but then it cuts all damage in half(which can be good) but when you spam Botm it will do same ratio of damage....
First of all, the same ratio of damage ignores the fact that the actual sacrifice number is lower. BotM (with 10 minions up) would sacrifice 120pts at 480 health, vs. 60pts at 240 health, that's pretty helpful right there (similar to the way a 55 build works).
But Aura of the Lich halves damage from all sources including life sacrifice, so it, in effect, quarters the damage received from Blood of the Master, and continuing my example above, would result in a 30pt hit at 240 health. I believe the only thing not affected by AotL is degen. Great skill, especially if you are running with multiple MMs. I personally prefer Order of Undeath, but need to try that Jagged Bones build for the MM hero. Flesh Golem is not bad so much as there are better elites to take than it.
Pyro maniac
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Originally Posted by Giga Strike
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yes, september 29. 2005
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Aura of the Lich - Decreased Energy to 10; decreased casting time to 2 seconds; decreased recharge to 20; decreased duration to 15..45; removed “half healing” from description.
Coloneh
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Yarrr! I got tempbanned twice.
Once for utterly obvious sarcasm, I was even helping the guy! And the second time for again, sarcasm/trolling/pure irony but I don't quite remember what thread....oh yeah...it was a freekedoutfish's thread... "<something> isn't fun". My reply: Anal probing isn't fun either! they tell you why they ban you? lucky! ive been banned 4 or 5 times, they havent given me a reason yet.
HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by BladeDVD
First of all, the same ratio of damage ignores the fact that the actual sacrifice number is lower. BotM (with 10 minions up) would sacrifice 120pts at 480 health, vs. 60pts at 240 health, that's pretty helpful right there (similar to the way a 55 build works).
But Aura of the Lich halves damage from all sources including life sacrifice, so it, in effect, quarters the damage received from Blood of the Master, and continuing my example above, would result in a 30pt hit at 240 health. I believe the only thing not affected by AotL is degen. Great skill, especially if you are running with multiple MMs. I personally prefer Order of Undeath, but need to try that Jagged Bones build for the MM hero. Flesh Golem is not bad so much as there are better elites to take than it. Minor point. I'm pretty sure AotL doesn't halve life stealing attacks. arsie
AotL has the same pros and cons of 55ing right?
BigDave
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Originally Posted by arsie
Other than that AotL can make you very hard to kill indeed. Ever tried taking down a MM in AB who's running AotL, Dark Bond, Infuse Condition and Mystic Regen with direct damage? Let me tell you, if they have more than a couple of minions up you'll be there for a long time. And if they have a full army they can take the damage from 2 sins and an ele for a good length of time before going down. You'll have to kill every minion they have before the MM will go down, unless the damage you put down on them is truly colossal. One of the drawbacks that 55's have which an AotL build doesn't have is that you're not as vunerable to enchant stripping. If you do get stripped you'll still have a normal health range (like 450-500hp). If a 55 gets stripped/interupted they're screwed, lol. BladeDVD
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Minor point. I'm pretty sure AotL doesn't halve life stealing attacks.
Yes, you are correct. Life steal and degen are not affected by AotL. In my defense I did say "I believe."
BenjZee
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Originally Posted by Curse You
I prefer to Jagged Bones on my heroes, simply because I always notice how bad the heroes can be with Animate Flesh Golem. They don't wait for their existing Golem to die before re-using the skill and so waste the free corpse.
but then again the other flesh golem will leave a corpse. Meaning you could make the same amount of minions but with extra time and health on them
Rathcail
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Originally Posted by SmithyBen
but then again the other flesh golem will leave a corpse. Meaning you could make the same amount of minions but with extra time and health on them
If you animate a flesh golem when you already have one, the old golem dies off and leaves already exploited corpse.
That's why it's bad when the heroes won't wait for the first golem to die off before making a new one.
quickmonty
I do that myself sometimes as MM, if there are enough corpses to use. You get a nice fresh Fleshy with full health bar.
freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by Online Gamer
WHY DOES EVERY ONE HATE FLESH GOLEM IT IS ONE OF THE STRONGER CREATURES IN THE GAME!!!! I've actually seen the opposite. I run an MM build in AB called pvp death reaper and when ever I have flesh golem in my skill bar I get "nice you have flesh golem". But in all honesty, the only advantage to FG is its stronger then other minions and seems to do more damage and it leaves a corpse behind. When you weight that up compared to other skills you could use, its not that great, so it is a bit over rated. Any minion other then the bog standard ones are good for a fight. A mix of range attacking, vampiric and bleeding minions is always good (sorry dont know the exact names). I went onto pvxwiki and found a great MM build which uses alot of enchantments to protect against harm and it doesnt use flesh golem. Check out http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._to_the_Master It works pretty well aslong as you maintain enchantments.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
But in all honesty, the only advantage to FG is its stronger then other minions and seems to do more damage and it leaves a corpse behind.
That's actually a pretty good advantage, depending upon what you want an MM to do. When I'm running my H&H mini-b/p group, the minions mostly function as "blockers", so the longer they last, the better. Their damage output is of secondary importance, and Bone Fiends (ranged attack) and Bone Minions are not used.
Online Gamer
[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] guess it is okay, ill use it if i dont get factions
El toro loco
Flesh Golems hit hard but r very slow to attack it depends what your going for tho :P
Nodensis
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Originally Posted by Quaker
That's actually a pretty good advantage, depending upon what you want an MM to do. When I'm running my H&H mini-b/p group, the minions mostly function as "blockers", so the longer they last, the better. Their damage output is of secondary importance, and Bone Fiends (ranged attack) and Bone Minions are not used.
I think you hit the spot there, the difference is if you want them to be aggro-takers or damage-dealing.
Aggro takes: Flesh Golem and Bone Horror's Damage dealers: JB/minions/nova, OoU/vampirics... etc etc  My answer on original question: Flesh Golem isn't dead, but pro teams work on precision and MM are out-ranked these days (especially since last b/p nerf).
Online Gamer
Awww man I like being MM i am good at it aswell
Clarissa F
For elites, if you are talking about yourself, go [skill]aura of the lich[/skill] or [skill]order of undeath[/skill], as you can manage it well. Heroes are best with spammables, like [skill]jagged bones[/skill] or [skill]tainted flesh[/skill], as they'll hit those and [skill]death nova[/skill] all day.
Oh, and if there is more than one MM, don't give them [skill]blood of the master[/skill]. I've seen someone's Master of Whispers kill himself spamming that. Nice having 8 minions with Death Nova fighting you in Vizunah.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Nodensis
My answer on original question: Flesh Golem isn't dead, but pro teams work on precision and MM are out-ranked these days (especially since last b/p nerf).
It's unfortunate that so many posters (OP's) don't specify if they are talking PvE or PvP or both, because it usually makes a difference.
iridescentfyre
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Originally Posted by Quaker
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Would you seriously rather have one big minion that lasts longer, or an entire army that lasts long?
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Originally Posted by Quaker
It's unfortunate that so many posters (OP's) don't specify if they are talking PvE or PvP or both, because it usually makes a difference.
I think in a thread discussing MMs, one should not need to be reminded that we're talking about PvE.
Ashe.
I personally prefer the minion bomber build to any other.
Online Gamer
LOL IM DA ONLA WUN ANSARIN ma cwestshuns
Online Gamer
hehehe nvm mind and up there i said "LOL i am the only one answering my questions
Quaker
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Originally Posted by iridescentfyre
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I don't see why you think [wiki]Jagged Bones[/wiki] is so great. It only works on the "target" creature, which has to die to make it work. So, you have a weaker (than FG) minion that dies sooner, to make another weaker than FG minion. I admit I haven't actually used it, but I think that you may end up with just as good a meat shield either way. Especially when the MM is using Shambling Horrors anyway.
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I think in a thread discussing MMs, one should not need to be reminded that we're talking about PvE.
Actually, the OP was asking about Flesh Golem not MM's. We don't know whether he was talking about PvE or not, so there's no "reminding" going on.
Coloneh
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Originally Posted by Quaker
I don't see why you think [wiki]Jagged Bones[/wiki] is so great. It only works on the "target" creature, which has to die to make it work. So, you have a weaker (than FG) minion that dies sooner, to make another weaker than FG minion. I admit I haven't actually used it, but I think that you may end up with just as good a meat shield either way. Especially when the MM is using Shambling Horrors anyway.
And, you may be missing one important thing in my post - I'm not the MM in my mini-b/p group. I have enough micro-managing to do in the group already, without having to make sure the Hero MM is using JB correctly. And I really don't see where [wiki]Aura of the Lich[/wiki] would be of any help (to my Hero MM) 1. Jagged bonues can keep up 4 minions forever. try it. 2. heroes use JB better than you could ever hope to, they can put JB on a minion a second before it dies. 3. AotL is the only non-nightfall elite a MM should ever carry. If you cant get order of undeath or jagged bones then take AotL. the healing power is unmatched by any MM heal in the game and it reduces your sacrifice from BotM.
Carinae
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Originally Posted by Giga Strike
did aura of the lich used to cut healing in half?
No. The description used to say it did, but it didn't. They just altered the description to match the effect, rather than vice-versa.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
1. Jagged bonues can keep up 4 minions forever. try it.
2. heroes use JB better than you could ever hope to, they can put JB on a minion a second before it dies. 3. AotL is the only non-nightfall elite a MM should ever carry. If you cant get order of undeath or jagged bones then take AotL. the healing power is unmatched by any MM heal in the game and it reduces your sacrifice from BotM. Ok, so I'll give Jagged Bones a try with Livia and see how well she does. But I still don't like AotL - you take half damage, but you have only half the health, making degen (bleeding, poison, etc.) more of a problem
Pyro maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaker
Ok, so I'll give Jagged Bones a try with Livia and see how well she does.
But I still don't like AotL - you take half damage, but you have only half the health, making degen (bleeding, poison, etc.) more of a problem that's why regen is so nice on you. and taking half damage, but gaining full heal is also ftw .. main reason why AotL is so good, is because of the half sac. Normally 10% out of 600 hp would be 60 hp. with AotL you only have got 300 hp, 10% of it would be 30 hp. But since it halves saccing, you only lose 15 hp. That means you can use the skill (botm) 4 times, while have the same health loss as a single one without aotl ..
Online Gamer
Pyro thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense to me now=D
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Ok, so I'll give Jagged Bones a try with Livia and see how well she does.
But I still don't like AotL - you take half damage, but you have only half the health, making degen (bleeding, poison, etc.) more of a problem [skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] + [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] + [skill]Infuse Condition[/skill] + [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] Not only does BotM on 10 minions cost around 20 life, you'll consistently be taking 55ing levels of damage with insane regen and immunity to conditions. Not to mention that it also doesn't gimp your skill bar. Monks rarely need to focus on you since you regen nearly all damage done to you and healing your minions is easy.
System_Crush
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] + [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] + [skill]Infuse Condition[/skill] + [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]
Not only does BotM on 10 minions cost around 20 life, you'll consistently be taking 55ing levels of damage with insane regen and immunity to conditions. Not to mention that it also doesn't gimp your skill bar. Monks rarely need to focus on you since you regen nearly all damage done to you and healing your minions is easy. I used that for a while, its pretty good but if you like me use [skill=text]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill] with it, the 10 energy every 10 seconds for mythic regen can get hefty at times. And when not using fiends I like to take some kind of boost for my horrors, be that the bleeding form JB, [skill=text]Mark of Pain[/skill] or even [skill=text]Splinter Weapon[/skill] earth prayers doesn't have anything like that. I guess I should get my hands on [wiki]Great Dwarf Weapon[/wiki] and see what it does for minions, though the faster speed of fiends would still make it better on them...
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
Normally 10% out of 600 hp would be 60 hp. with AotL you only have got 300 hp, 10% of it would be 30 hp. But since it halves saccing, you only lose 15 hp.
That means you can use the skill (botm) 4 times, while have the same health loss as a single one without aotl .. I'm not sure where you're getting this 10% figure, but it's not the sac from BotM. BotM costs 5% of your health plus 2% for each minion healed - with 10 minions, that's 25%. With 300HP that would be 75HP, but with 1/2 sac it would be 37.5HP. (which is still 1/4 of the sac without AotL) But at any rate, I find that Livia doesn't use BotM all that much, she tends to make new minions instead. When she does use it (which is nearly always after the battle), she loses about 131HP (23% of 570) which is nearly negated by the 110HP she gets from Heal Area (with 8 in HP). In any case, with sufficient corpses, she is able to maintain 9 minions more or less constantly, whether she uses Flesh Golem or Jagged Bones and in spite of not using AotL. (she's using [wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki] atm, btw, but that's also in "testing phase" along with Jagged Bones.) She seems to survive a lot better with more health. Jagged Bones doesn't seem to be any better in the long run, then Flesh Golem.
Pyro maniac
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Originally Posted by Quaker
I'm not sure where you're getting this 10% figure, but it's not the sac from BotM. BotM costs 5% of your health plus 2% for each minion healed - with 10 minions, that's 25%. With 300HP that would be 75HP, but with 1/2 sac it would be 37.5HP. (which is still 1/4 of the sac without AotL)
But at any rate, I find that Livia doesn't use BotM all that much, she tends to make new minions instead. When she does use it (which is nearly always after the battle), she loses about 131HP (23% of 570) which is nearly negated by the 110HP she gets from Heal Area (with 8 in HP). In any case, with sufficient corpses, she is able to maintain 9 minions more or less constantly, whether she uses Flesh Golem or Jagged Bones and in spite of not using AotL. (she's using [wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki] atm, btw, but that's also in "testing phase" along with Jagged Bones.) She seems to survive a lot better with more health. Jagged Bones doesn't seem to be any better in the long run, then Flesh Golem. 10% was a sample sac, since I didn't want to bother with: "if you have 8 minions then it would be ..." Aura of the Lich is mainly for either own use (spamming AotL as it should) or dual MM on heroes. As Dual MM without AotL is just retarded
Emik
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Originally Posted by System_Crush
I used that for a while, its pretty good but if you like me use [skill=text]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill] with it, the 10 energy every 10 seconds for mythic regen can get hefty at times.
And when not using fiends I like to take some kind of boost for my horrors, be that the bleeding form JB, [skill=text]Mark of Pain[/skill] or even [skill=text]Splinter Weapon[/skill] earth prayers doesn't have anything like that. I guess I should get my hands on [wiki]Great Dwarf Weapon[/wiki] and see what it does for minions, though the faster speed of fiends would still make it better on them... Masochism sorts all your energy problems.
Darkside
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Originally Posted by Online Gamer
Awww man I like being MM i am good at it aswell
Lol...yah cause it's real hard being an mm. I'd rather have Olias with me...
Online Gamer
dont make fun of me
Moloch Vein
That's because Olias is God of Heroes.
I don't know what it is, and I sure would like for someone to tell me whether it's all in my head... but whenever I give Olias a build, he always manages to outperform my other necro heroes using it. Do they really have the same AI? |
