Armor+5 or HP+30?
Wolala Wagaga
as topic, i am wondering is there worth using armor +5 on ur weapon? HP+30 seems alot more versitale, and definitely alot more popular in both PvE and PvP... but i will like to know what ppl's take on this
October Jade
Carry one of each; use the armor boost until you're about to die, then switch to +30. The rest of the time the extra health isn't doing you any good.
bilateralrope
If you can't be bothered switching, +armor works best in PvE simply because its working every single time you take armor effected damage (such as an enemy wanding you) while, like October Jade said, +hp is doing nothing unless you are between 0 and 30 hp with it equipped.
And + armor is usually cheaper to buy.
And + armor is usually cheaper to buy.
wetsparks
with armor ignoring spells though the +30 does you a lot more good.
Solus Spartan
People buy +30hp for more, so it's a +5 weapon i'll usually cuztomise it.
I'd say +5 is better, +30hp makes it sell better
I'd say +5 is better, +30hp makes it sell better
bilateralrope
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Originally Posted by wetsparks
with armor ignoring spells though the +30 does you a lot more good.
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And of those occasions, how many of them have you actually survived ?
Onarik Amrak
I was about to reach for the dead horse .gif... but I'll throw you a bone.
It depends on what you're fighting.
It depends on what you're fighting.
oresteez
i'm a pve MM necro, and for my playstyle, I'd have to go with the +30 hp...since I'm going to be constantly giving my HP to my minions...
So it's really a question that varies based on your character...
So it's really a question that varies based on your character...
Shadow Spirit
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Originally Posted by oresteez
i'm a pve MM necro, and for my playstyle, I'd have to go with the +30 hp...since I'm going to be constantly giving my HP to my minions...
So it's really a question that varies based on your character... |
oresteez
thanks for the tip..i'm still new, so I'll have to mess around with it in game
Shadow Spirit
No problem. Here's a link you may find useful:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General..._mastery_guide
Although you should always remember that the wiki is created by players. So it's not always 100% accurate.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General..._mastery_guide
Although you should always remember that the wiki is created by players. So it's not always 100% accurate.
Steboy93
Generally I would go for +30hp but that's just my opinion.
quickmonty
This has been argued for a couple years. I think October Jade's sugestion is good.
Quote:
| Carry one of each; use the armor boost until you're about to die, then switch to +30. The rest of the time the extra health isn't doing you any good. |
Dante the Warlord
Ive been told that +30 is better for a spellcasters actually. The reason why was that spellcasters generally stayed in the back, far enough not to be hit at least. While armor is by far VERY useful to a spellcaster since they have very low armor, ive been told that +30 would be "better". This is what i have been told from past gw gururers, since i believe i asked this exact same question
P.S. for mm's go 36% HSR and HCT(two 20's combined)
its better since you need to gain as many minions as fast as possible
P.S. for mm's go 36% HSR and HCT(two 20's combined)
its better since you need to gain as many minions as fast as possible
moriz
i'd go with +30 hp simply because it's good in any situation. i've been reduced down to <30hp in pvp more times than i can count.
Yanman.be
PvP? +30
PvE? Cheapest thing you can find!
PvE? Cheapest thing you can find!
Alex Morningstar
PvP +30
PvE +5 Armor if you are going to keep it, +30 if you want to sell it.
Why? Everyone wants +30 because a few vocal players decided it was the only thing worth having and everyone else that can't think for themselves simply agree. +30 against a mob of monsters wont do you much, while +5 will reduce the overall damage you take.
PvE +5 Armor if you are going to keep it, +30 if you want to sell it.
Why? Everyone wants +30 because a few vocal players decided it was the only thing worth having and everyone else that can't think for themselves simply agree. +30 against a mob of monsters wont do you much, while +5 will reduce the overall damage you take.
bilateralrope
Wiki article on armor rating. The first thing you should note is that for armor effected damage +x armor will always reduce the damage received by the same percentage regardless of the starting AL for a given value of x.
+5 armor is an 8.3% damage reduction
Lets assume a level 20 character with a sup vigor and a sup attribute rune. So 480 + 50 - 75 = 455 hp
If you add a +30 hp mod you bring your hp to 485, and the +30 only makes up 6.2% of your total hp. If you increase your hp from other sources, this percentage decreases. For the +30 mod to be above 8.3% of your hp, you would need to be at 361hp with the mod (30/0.083).
But even then it only performs as well as the +AL if your either not being healed, or your only taking armor ignoring damage. For PvE I'm not aware of a single enemy that does armor ignoring damage that doesn't also use its basic attack. And the only armor ignoring basic attack I know of is if they illusionary weaponry up. So apart from the illusionary weaponry enemies, every PvE enemy will cause the +al mod to take effect.
On the other hand +hp will only work in two situations:
1 - You take the damage to pull you under 30hp with the mod and you get healed before dying. Since your at <30hp, this will only take a wand or two.
2 - You manage to do something useful before dying, like getting off a skill just before the fatal blow comes.
In all other situations it does nothing except let more hp get lost to saccing or let 3 more damage per hit slip through prot spirit.
For PvE if either of these cases come up, you got really lucky.
+5 armor is an 8.3% damage reduction
Lets assume a level 20 character with a sup vigor and a sup attribute rune. So 480 + 50 - 75 = 455 hp
If you add a +30 hp mod you bring your hp to 485, and the +30 only makes up 6.2% of your total hp. If you increase your hp from other sources, this percentage decreases. For the +30 mod to be above 8.3% of your hp, you would need to be at 361hp with the mod (30/0.083).
But even then it only performs as well as the +AL if your either not being healed, or your only taking armor ignoring damage. For PvE I'm not aware of a single enemy that does armor ignoring damage that doesn't also use its basic attack. And the only armor ignoring basic attack I know of is if they illusionary weaponry up. So apart from the illusionary weaponry enemies, every PvE enemy will cause the +al mod to take effect.
On the other hand +hp will only work in two situations:
1 - You take the damage to pull you under 30hp with the mod and you get healed before dying. Since your at <30hp, this will only take a wand or two.
2 - You manage to do something useful before dying, like getting off a skill just before the fatal blow comes.
In all other situations it does nothing except let more hp get lost to saccing or let 3 more damage per hit slip through prot spirit.
For PvE if either of these cases come up, you got really lucky.
ShadowsRequiem
Dunno who uses 485 hp as that is very low. Most people use minors now having there health around 585-640 hp
Use whatever you feel you like, test out both and see if they fit your playing style. If you run into a lot of physical dmg use +5, or if you have heavy degen use +30.
Use whatever you feel you like, test out both and see if they fit your playing style. If you run into a lot of physical dmg use +5, or if you have heavy degen use +30.
Quaker
I prefer +30 health myself, although many of my Hero's weapons have +5 armor. Armor +5 only helps against attack damage, whereas h+30 helps give you a bigger buffer against degen type damage (poison, bleeding, etc.)
But, as they say, it depends on your playstyle and such.
But, as they say, it depends on your playstyle and such.
Siadena
Ah, the classic old tale of messing with what people call "perfect" with the +30hp. I have to agree - go with the +5 armor for sure. I'm getting rid of all my +30's - whether they be on staves, bows, swords or axes. Another thing that influences my decision is because I run consumables - cupcakes, candy apples, etc - that give extra hp's, so taking up a mod space with just another +30hp seems like a waste, might as well take the armor buff.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Shadow Spirit
You'll actually be better off having less health as a MM. Blood of the Master sacrifice is based on your max health, so the lower your max HP is, the less you sacrifice.
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Randvek
Ha, trick question. You go with the two +7s!
Dante the Warlord
I know you guys say that +30s are expensive, but last i checked +30s for staffs sell for only 1k-2k max. Not too sure bout for wands and for focuses. They are only extremely expensive on melee weapons where a +30 goes for 5-10k, depending on weapon. I also think that even if it is extra cost, the +30 is more common to find. Much more common to find actually. I think since +30s have a rep of being worth something, people generally keep them and spam to sell em. +5 armors on the other hand aren't very common to find being sold, although they are sometimes found on some spellcasting weapons...
Im not saying +30 is better, but those of you who think that ts way too much in price its really not all that much ...anymore. Of course +5 is better when you are hit by melee weapons, but id consider +30s when staying in the far back.
Im not saying +30 is better, but those of you who think that ts way too much in price its really not all that much ...anymore. Of course +5 is better when you are hit by melee weapons, but id consider +30s when staying in the far back.
Longasc
I guess this debate will never end.
Bilateralrope already did the math, but I want to add some more factors to take in consideration:
Low HP makes you a more attractive target for the AI.
So check your team setup! The consequence would be PvE "tanks" having lower HP and higher AL than other team members.
While it is no longer as important as during the time around the release of Factions and before (which was also leading to the fatal chain that the guy that got DP got even more and more by getting targetted and killed over and over in the worst case), it is still one of the major factors besides position and hitting the target and whatever.
The exact aggro-formula can possibly never be really gotten by experiment, only ANet knows (or better: made) the parameters and I guess they have more of a rough idea about this, too, not too different from us actually.
My observations: Dire Pets with only 420 HP make excellent tanks - they draw aggro a lot.
My 590 HP Warrior... mobs pass him by too often, if I cannot get them at a corner. Which I of course usually do.
This is why I suggest +5 AL and ideally a superior rune for PvE - if you are the tank. (And still use +30 HP weapons myself... doh)
Giving your monks high health on the other side is a smart trick to make them less attractive targets. But just another example, the mobs in the Deep e.g. go for caster equipment (which can be checked by giving the monk a sword, then they do not cast chaos storm on them).
To put it bluntly:
1.) +5 AL for PvE (you can switch to +30 HP if need arises)
2.) +30 HP for PvP (Degen, less "mobs" bashing on you and in general spike damage, high HP is a good buffer)
3.) Never go below 480 HP. Ideally stay above 500.
Switch weapons or to a minor rune if this happens. A certain healthy BASE level of Hitpoints is vital and cannot be replaced by armor!
It does not seem to make much sense to give a MM Hero (Olias) a +60 HP staff, after all he usually has Blood of the Master in the build and sacs life.
The reason for me giving him Vitae Runes (I kept MM insignia for armor) and a +60 HP buff was the Superior Death rune and having LOWER HP than any other of my chars. Buffing Health to some 525 made Olias a much more survivable and less attractive target.
This is almost subject for another thread, but is it no supporting the recommendation to have +AL mods for PvE? +30 mods on greens are the norm, as is public opinion in favor of health mods.
Bilateralrope already did the math, but I want to add some more factors to take in consideration:
Low HP makes you a more attractive target for the AI.
So check your team setup! The consequence would be PvE "tanks" having lower HP and higher AL than other team members.
While it is no longer as important as during the time around the release of Factions and before (which was also leading to the fatal chain that the guy that got DP got even more and more by getting targetted and killed over and over in the worst case), it is still one of the major factors besides position and hitting the target and whatever.
The exact aggro-formula can possibly never be really gotten by experiment, only ANet knows (or better: made) the parameters and I guess they have more of a rough idea about this, too, not too different from us actually.
My observations: Dire Pets with only 420 HP make excellent tanks - they draw aggro a lot.
My 590 HP Warrior... mobs pass him by too often, if I cannot get them at a corner. Which I of course usually do.
This is why I suggest +5 AL and ideally a superior rune for PvE - if you are the tank. (And still use +30 HP weapons myself... doh)
Giving your monks high health on the other side is a smart trick to make them less attractive targets. But just another example, the mobs in the Deep e.g. go for caster equipment (which can be checked by giving the monk a sword, then they do not cast chaos storm on them).
To put it bluntly:
1.) +5 AL for PvE (you can switch to +30 HP if need arises)
2.) +30 HP for PvP (Degen, less "mobs" bashing on you and in general spike damage, high HP is a good buffer)
3.) Never go below 480 HP. Ideally stay above 500.
Switch weapons or to a minor rune if this happens. A certain healthy BASE level of Hitpoints is vital and cannot be replaced by armor!
It does not seem to make much sense to give a MM Hero (Olias) a +60 HP staff, after all he usually has Blood of the Master in the build and sacs life.
The reason for me giving him Vitae Runes (I kept MM insignia for armor) and a +60 HP buff was the Superior Death rune and having LOWER HP than any other of my chars. Buffing Health to some 525 made Olias a much more survivable and less attractive target.
This is almost subject for another thread, but is it no supporting the recommendation to have +AL mods for PvE? +30 mods on greens are the norm, as is public opinion in favor of health mods.
Savio
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Originally Posted by Randvek
Ha, trick question. You go with the two +7s!
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Dante the Warlord
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Originally Posted by Longasc
I guess this debate will never end.
Bilateralrope already did the math, but I want to add some more factors to take in consideration: Low HP makes you a more attractive target for the AI. So check your team setup! The consequence would be PvE "tanks" having lower HP and higher AL than other team members. While it is no longer as important as during the time around the release of Factions and before (which was also leading to the fatal chain that the guy that got DP got even more and more by getting targetted and killed over and over in the worst case), it is still one of the major factors besides position and hitting the target and whatever. The exact aggro-formula can possibly never be really gotten by experiment, only ANet knows (or better: made) the parameters and I guess they have more of a rough idea about this, too, not too different from us actually. My observations: Dire Pets with only 420 HP make excellent tanks - they draw aggro a lot. My 590 HP Warrior... mobs pass him by too often, if I cannot get them at a corner. Which I of course usually do. This is why I suggest +5 AL and ideally a superior rune for PvE - if you are the tank. (And still use +30 HP weapons myself... doh) Giving your monks high health on the other side is a smart trick to make them less attractive targets. But just another example, the mobs in the Deep e.g. go for caster equipment (which can be checked by giving the monk a sword, then they do not cast chaos storm on them). To put it bluntly: 1.) +5 AL for PvE (you can switch to +30 HP if need arises) 2.) +30 HP for PvP (Degen, less "mobs" bashing on you and in general spike damage, high HP is a good buffer) 3.) Never go below 480 HP. Ideally stay above 500. Switch weapons or to a minor rune if this happens. A certain healthy BASE level of Hitpoints is vital and cannot be replaced by armor! It does not seem to make much sense to give a MM Hero (Olias) a +60 HP staff, after all he usually has Blood of the Master in the build and sacs life. The reason for me giving him Vitae Runes (I kept MM insignia for armor) and a +60 HP buff was the Superior Death rune and having LOWER HP than any other of my chars. Buffing Health to some 525 made Olias a much more survivable and less attractive target. This is almost subject for another thread, but is it no supporting the recommendation to have +AL mods for PvE? +30 mods on greens are the norm, as is public opinion in favor of health mods. |
Anyways, spellcasters and warriors are completely different since they have 20 lower AL than normal war armor...
bilateralrope
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Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem
Dunno who uses 485 hp as that is very low. Most people use minors now having there health around 585-640 hp
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Huh? How does that help. The lower your health, the faster you die from degen, among other things. Besides which, you should be using BotM in combo with a healing spell anyway.
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And +armor reduces the amount you need to be healed for because it reduces the points of damage taken. While this results in a reduction in the energy monks need to use, I doubt it makes much of a difference.
As far as modding an item for sale is concerned lets look at the possible buyers:
- The person buying it with the intent to mod it to the exact stats your selling it for. He will be willing to pay, at most, the price of the skin plus whatever it would cost him to buy the mods.
- The person planning to strip and resell the mods with a perfect salvage kit, while keeping the weapon for himself. He will pay the price of the skin plus what he expects to get for the mods, minus the cost of the kit and a profit margin.
- The person planning to change the mods. He will only be willing to pay the cost of the skin, since he doesn't like the mods that its being sold with.
So I'd say that if you plan to sell a weapon, either remove the mods with a perfect salvage kit, or just sell it with the mods currently on it. Adding new mods will, at best, break even.
杀TanK杀
Armour +5 is the most effective, but +30hp looks a lot better
Quaker
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Originally Posted by bilateralrope
With all saccing skills, they take a percentage of your hp. With more hp, this means they take more points of hp.
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In the long run, it all depends upon the total make up of your build, and that of the team, and what enemies you are facing. It doesn't make sense to make blanket statements either way, actually.
anonymous
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Originally Posted by bilateralrope
How often do you get between 30 and 0 hp on the +hp mod ?
And of those occasions, how many of them have you actually survived ? |
Redvex
For my ranger i go with 525hp and +35 energy.
I don't wanna go under 500 so +30hp for me.
I don't wanna go under 500 so +30hp for me.
Guildmaster Cain
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Originally Posted by Longasc
Low HP makes you a more attractive target for the AI.
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So either is good, tho there arent any statistics available on which is better on this regard.
Plus this wouldnt matter in PvP.
You could approach the problem this way: Depending on your base armor level, you should choose the mod. There has been a study on this a long time ago.
The result of the study was, if you are having an armor level lower then 70ish, you should go for the +5 armor, since it would generally reduce more damage then +30 hp. But if your armor is higher then 70 (warriors and paragons), the damage reduction that +5 armor does will have a very small effect compared to 30 health.
But if you are comfortable with itemswap, I suggest +5 armor for normal and swap to +30 when you are running low.
To summarize: low armor characters (including skills) with armor below 70, should take +armor, high armor level characters should take + health. Or use itemswap.
Only exception is when you are a warrior or something and you are trying to minimize damage, in which case +armor makes it a lot easier to reach the -0s.
Viruzzz
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Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem
Dunno who uses 485 hp as that is very low. Most people use minors now having there health around 585-640 hp
Use whatever you feel you like, test out both and see if they fit your playing style. If you run into a lot of physical dmg use +5, or if you have heavy degen use +30. |
bilateralrope
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Originally Posted by anonymous
Spikes. It is much easier to spike a person with 500 hp than a person with 600.
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2 - Lets do some calculations on spike damage on a 485hp character with either a +hp or +armor mod.
First we take the character with +30hp. So they simply need to take 515 damage to die. Throw in a deepwound and this is only 412 damage.
Now for the 485hp character. But because of the damage reduction if you hit the +hp character with the same attacks, you would deal 485/0.917 = 529 damage to it. Deepwound drops the +al to 388hp, which would be 423 damage on a character without the +al.
If you increase the base hp, then the +amor becomes even more effective. But there are some things I left out. When I say base AL/HP/etc, I mean the value from all sources other than the +hp/AL mod:
- Cracked armor. If your base AL is >=80 or <=55 then my calculations hold. If the base AL is 76-79 or 56-59 then the +AL mod will have reduced effectiveness when your cracked. If its 60-75 then the +AL mod will be useless when your cracked. All ranges are inclusive.
- Armor ignoring damage breaks my calculations. If your facing an armor ignoring spike, the +hp would only help if the spike damage is between your base hp and your hp with the mod, otherwise you die either way. So how much damage do the current armor ignoring spikes in PvP do ? (if they exist)
- Armor penetration reduces the effectiveness of the +al mod. For instance 20% armor penetration would reduce a +5 AL mod to an effective +4AL mod. Some values of armor penetration would mean that the optimal anti-spike setup would be a weapon with a +hp on one end and a +al on the other.
Note that this only applies to spikes large enough to kill you from your current hp. If your facing a more constant dps (degen being the ultimate example of constant dps) then your survival depends on your teams healing. In a pressure situation the +al becomes even more effective because it takes effect every time you get hit reducing the incoming DPS, thus reducing how much you need to be healed. But the +hp means that the incoming dps will merely take longer to kill you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Viruzzz
If you happen to run into a lot of physical damage, why not use the appropriate +7 vs. physical?(shelter)
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Savio
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bilateralrope
2 - Lets do some calculations on spike damage on a 485hp character with either a +hp or +armor mod.
First we take the character with +30hp. So they simply need to take 515 damage to die. Throw in a deepwound and this is only 412 damage. |
Quote:
| If the base AL is 76-79 or 56-59 then the +AL mod will have reduced effectiveness when your cracked. |
Quote:
| Armor ignoring damage breaks my calculations. If your facing an armor ignoring spike, the +hp would only help if the spike damage is between your base hp and your hp with the mod, otherwise you die either way. So how much damage do the current armor ignoring spikes in PvP do ? (if they exist) |
Additionally, DP doesn't affect +health, so you are much more durable with +health after you get DP.
sagilltwins
i prefer +30 hp. Sure +5 armor is nice but it can easily be healed...
Yanman.be
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Originally Posted by Savio
DW only affects base health and not +health. That's why people without +health are screwed when they get DP.
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Quote:
| Deep Wound will never reduce your health by more than 100 points, even if your original health was more than 500. The health lost is also removed from your current health which is why a Deep Wound can be seen as a damage of 20% of maximum health until it's removed. |
Base health = 480 so why are they mentioning 500 hp?
olivenmann
As a PvE melee character, I usually use +5 armor mods - maybe just because I don't trust the monks in my party. But since the day I played a tank with about 200hp (superior rune and 60% death penalty, no vigor rune), I always have a weapon with +30hp with me (and I don't use superior runes anymore). When you're already that low on hp, +30hp is definitely better (unless you have a permanent Protective Spirit available).
As non-melee char, I prefer other mods anyway - things like longer enchantments, +5 energy, halved HRT/HCT, ...
As non-melee char, I prefer other mods anyway - things like longer enchantments, +5 energy, halved HRT/HCT, ...
tmakinen
For the sake of AI target preference, I would expect that monsters evaluate an effective HP, or toughness, value which is a combination of base HP and non-conditional armor (thus ignoring any AL vs. specific thing modifiers to keep it simple) roughly as:
H_eff = H_base * 2^((A_base - 60) / 40)
(I haven't tested it out but that is the most rational approach). Thus the gain from a +HP mod is
dH_HP = dH * 2^((A_base - 60) / 40)
and from a +AL mod
dH_AL = H_base * (2^((A_base + dA - 60) / 40) - 2^((A_base - 60) / 40))
As an example, let's consider base HPs 330 and 600 and base ALs 60 and 100. The gains for different cases are:
330 HP / 60 AL: dH_HP = 30, dH_AL = 30
330 HP / 100 AL: dH_HP = 60, dH_AL = 60
600 HP / 60 AL: dH_HP = 30, dH_AL = 54
600 HP / 100 AL: dH_HP = 60, dH_AL = 109
Since I never run anywhere near the breakpoint HP of 330, +AL is certainly my choice, and for the rare PvE spike, that's what prot monks and goons are for
H_eff = H_base * 2^((A_base - 60) / 40)
(I haven't tested it out but that is the most rational approach). Thus the gain from a +HP mod is
dH_HP = dH * 2^((A_base - 60) / 40)
and from a +AL mod
dH_AL = H_base * (2^((A_base + dA - 60) / 40) - 2^((A_base - 60) / 40))
As an example, let's consider base HPs 330 and 600 and base ALs 60 and 100. The gains for different cases are:
330 HP / 60 AL: dH_HP = 30, dH_AL = 30
330 HP / 100 AL: dH_HP = 60, dH_AL = 60
600 HP / 60 AL: dH_HP = 30, dH_AL = 54
600 HP / 100 AL: dH_HP = 60, dH_AL = 109
Since I never run anywhere near the breakpoint HP of 330, +AL is certainly my choice, and for the rare PvE spike, that's what prot monks and goons are for