+3 runes vs +1

Strictly pve, when is it best to use +3 rune? I know for an mm it is a must, but it seems that losing 75 health isnt worth it for other builds. I am trying to outfit all my heros, so am I better off running +1 runes on them instead? I am using the 3 necro build atm and i have a +3 rune for the mm and +1 runes for the others. I also used to run a +3 fire on my ele, but now I put a +1 rune. Any thoughts?

I am mainly vanquishing and doing missions in hard mode atm, so this is the context I am talking about.

you're right
+1 is just the best. -75 hp is alot, while you just increase the green numbers a little.
you may want to use major sometimes for hitting breakpoints, but I don't know any atm.

I got +1s on everything.

I prefer my heros having 600ish health rather than having 2 ranks more in whatever attribute it is.

The most I'd ever go is Major( +2 -35). -75 HP is too steep for my liking.

Since you are mostly vanquishing and/or HM, I wouldn't recommend +3 runes on anyone, including the MM. I use Major (+2) runes at most on any heroes, and Minors (+1) where the difference is slight.
A Superior (+3) Rune on the MM does allow it to make 10 minions (with 16 in DM) and have slightly stronger minions, but the loss of health makes hero MMs die too easily IMHO. With a Major, they still can make 9 minions and they are only slightly less powerful.
Basically, I use Major Runes on hero monks, necros & mesmers and minor runes on Rangers. (I don't really use the other heroes very often.)

-75 is ok with compensation, or a -35 for that matter.

Compensation being Health inscriptions or Fourtitude mods on weapons as well as skills that raise you max health.

I say play around witha PvP only to create combonations of runes, insignias and weapons you like. A sup rune here, a vitae insignia there and so on to get the attribute points and HP levels your happy with, then go buyem and slapem on your heros.

Thats what I'd do if I were me.

Well I couldn't imagine my ele without those +3/-75hp runes.... maybe it's a mistake cuz I get 495 with +30focus mod but still the eles can do with that power is great and add glyph of ele power for another +2 and you get 18 attribute points . Add some eggs & grails of might an dthere ya go with 20 attribute

I decided its a matter of personal preference and playstyle. I use Major and Superior runes on almost all my heroes. In fact, my MM uses Superior Death, Major Soul Reaping, Minor Blood, Attunement, and Major Vigor, with 4 MM Insignias and 1 Bloodstained Insignia. My MM hero rarely dies, and if she does, the whole team is usually dead anyway.

I decided the ability to have more damage output from Superior Runes allows for things to die faster. When things die faster, I don't have to worry as much about staying alive, as there isn't much killing my team.

I have Legendary Vanquisher, and Legendary Guardian, so I do know Hard Mode, and this has worked well for me. Heroes I use with Superior runes are:

Livia (Death)
Master of Whispers (Curse)
Zhed Shadowhoof (Water)
Acolyte Sousuke (Fire)
Vekk (Air)
Koss (Strength)
Xandra (Channeling)
Razah (Spawning Power)
Melonni (Mysticism)
Khamu (Scythe Mastery)
Norgu (Illusion)
Gwen (Domination)

Heroes with Major runes:

Dunkoro (Healing Prayers+Divine Favor)
Tahlkora (Protection Prayers+Divine Favor)
Ogden Stonehealer (Smiting+Divine Favor)
Margrid The Sly (Marksmanship+Wilderness Survival)
Acolyte Jin (Expertise+Beast Mastery) - thumper
Pyre Fierceshot (Marksmanship+Expertise)
Olias (Blood)
Jora (Swordsmanship+Tactics)
Goren (Hammer Mastery+Strength)
Zenmai (Dagger Mastery+Critical Strikes)
Anton (Shadow Arts+Dagger Mastery)
General Morgahn (Spear Mastery+Leadership)
Hayda (Motivation)

The key is whether or not you are striving for a certain break point in an attribute. If you want that 16 rating, then definitely go w/ a sup rune, but if you're gonna spread points among 3 or more attributes, then it isn't worth it - use minors or majors.

Frankly, the only case where I use a sup rune is on a MM hero, otherwise I go major or minor. Another factor is cost - generally speaking, major runes are the cheapest, whereas certain sup runes are more expensive and minors are all around more expensive.

Also keep in mind that, given the proper application of other runes, insignias, and weapon mods, even that -75hp can be overcome...

I like +3 runes, and +2s as well. They are a lot of times way cheaper than +1's at the vendor, and I find at least in NM pve I can make do wth about 400-425hp. Not only can u reach certain break points with the bigger bonuses, but you can also boost a stat above twelve with the rune and bring it back down to 12 and gain huge amounts of points to move around to other stats if needed. I know the prevailing wisdom amongst players seems to put value on hit points over the attributes (otherwise the +1's wouldnt be so expensive), but really either the enemies i face cannot get around my defenses to do 300-400 damage to me that fast, or I got outnumbered by multiple groups and the x-tra 100hp wouldnt have really kept my group alive for enough seconds to really matter. Thought getting to the the Realm of Torment this weekend was going to make me change that, but sure enough it hasn't, even with all the weird extra environmental conditions (like the one that does 20dmg every time you attack or use a skill,thought that one would ruin me for sure). Basicly, -75hp may sound like a lot...but extra attribute points in the right place can make a bigger difference.

But it's all about preference. I prefer minor, mostly because I can swap through my less used heroes without modifying all the gear.
Since I don't have got a main char and equipping 300 heroes with gear is a bit expensive for me, I can swap with 3x wilderness heroes, and then 3x marksman rangers without swapping runes while not having the -75 for nothing

Thanks all. I am mainly worried about hm, as when i play there are bosses that do spikes. I was vanquishing an area in cantha, and a ele boss with air magic spiked me for 576 in one hit. This is the kind of stuff I am worried about. On the non mm's, i am running full radiant insigs, +1 soul reaping and curse/blood depending on the necro, +41 hp, and two +10 health. I also have staffs with +30hp on them. To compensate for the -75 hp on the mm, i have a similar set up rune wise but I also use the woe spreader for the 60hp it gives. If you have any other advice for me let me know, and thanks to all.

Any tips on henchies to bring with me, I am thinking a monk and maybe two w and an interrupt ranger?

An interupt ranger will help, a monk with damage reducing/blocking spells will help, and also not having so many radiant insignias (Necro shouldn't need them that bad) but having armor buffing insignias may help, especially since monster AI will go for "weak links" in your group, like targets that have low HP or low Armor Rating.(if the enemy AI constantly comes right for you, you are the "weak link").....changing runes/insignias a little- even for just minor changes to HP and AR can make it so your heroes or henchies take a big spike like that and not you.

Example, my group....without going into every rune and insignia

Koss 405hp AR 96 (116 vs phys)
Hayda 406hp AR 96 (106 if shout or chant)
My Ranger 411hp AR 70 (90 vs magic)
Livia 410hp AR 60 (+5 per minion)

Because of the AR and HP numbers, the enemies go for Livia first right now...if they dont attack livia, monsters will still attack Koss or Hayda before they will attack me because of the slightly lower HP. (the wiki says they look at HP first, AR next-seems to be more dynamic than that) Long story short just make sure whatever runes you use dont leave you with both the lowest HP and the lowest AR in your group, or else the monsters will come right to you like you have a juicy steak in your pocket.

My elementalist uses a +3 fire (or whatever elemental magic he is using) and a +1 energy storage rune. So basicly I end up with 485hp (or 455 using a "of enchanting" staff). I have never really had any problems with my hp being too low.

I'm in the process of vanquishing, and have done guardian in cantha (soon to do it in other continents, too) and I have to say it doesn't require any skill whatsoever. For example, using either Sab's popular builds or the imba paragon build, you can complete any area without knowing how to play.

And honestly, when has hard mode ever been too hard?

Read what you quoted me saying again. I said it proves I have played extensive Hard Mode. I didn't say I was good at it, although I think I am. I said I have played it a lot, and my 2 titles give evidence of that. Sab's builds are good, but I don't use them. I used them once, to see what the big deal was, and only liked the Rit healer mode out of it. That said, the MM won't work in many missions or certain areas. Taking an MM into Maguuma with the Scarabs is not good unless you take some good skills to steal the minions back. Some areas are densely populated with monsters that do not leave corpses, so again, the MM won't be much help. Curses are powerful, but some areas have extreme hex removal. Knowing what you face, and what works well against that is 100x better than Sabway.

If you know what builds you will use, then the runes to go with them should decide themselves for the most part. There are times where a build won't change much if you use a minor rune instead of a superior, but those won't be often. As I first stated, its all a matter of preference and play style.

Depends on the area but in general, I'd say +1 runes do except with a breakpoint at higher rank (MM for example).
Yesterday I played with a random group in a NM dungeon (guildie asked me to join him) and I got the feeling that both melee were using superior runes with no vigors to compensate. They went down too fast to explain otherwise.
It also didn't help that a monk hero is just not so good at pre-casting PS

Whichever way you look at it, you will have 75 more health without a Superior Rune than with one. (or 40 more with a Major)

Cut the flaming and help him. If you can't, don't post. It's simple.

Thank you.

I almost always use a single sup, the reason being that for 99.9% of pve areas I and my heroes are never even in the slightest danger of dieing. The other .1% being DoA, Urgoz and Deep where you end up with 3 or 4 people just spamming imba pve skills and once again you have basically no chance of death.

I use + 1 runes on all my heros too ~ except my MM on whom I use a +3 rune. I never find the loss in HP an issue on Olias ~ the wall of minions he provides acts as enough of a cushion, and [skill]dark bond[/skill] is basicly his own personal insurance policy anyway.

For PvE you are fine with +1 minor runes. I only have a superior rune on my MM character, my monk (yeah not 100% neccasary for my monk but meh) and thats it.

I even find that in PvP minor runes are being used more and more now, especially in some PvX Wiki builds.

Minor.
Major if i need to hit a breakpoint.
Superior...never.

[skill]Verata's Gaze[/skill]

Pop this sucker on to any MM's hero's bar. It's awesome for when they die and get ressed, when the red dots have MMs, and when your minions get stolen.

As for the original topic, when it comes to runes, it comes down to the character. For my monk, I have a hat with +1 and another with +3. I use the +1 for HM/PvP and the +3 for when I do NM or when I heal/prot.

For PvE you will find whichever answer you want, it is easy to justify any of them (minor, major, or superior). You can't even break it down to all the good players do one thing while the rest do another - it really truly is all over the place.

For myself I find PvE to be much more strongly team based. First off if the team tactics/skill is even remotely decent most things go pretty easy (and if you are a decent player then the H/H are too). There are HM areas I find hard with just this, but they are few and far in between. Those area's require something else.

That something else tends to be good builds - and for the most part that is MUCH more dependent on skill selection. I would also count skill selection with which professions you choose to take - NM pretty much works with everything (assuming the first paragraph is met) and HM works pretty much if you pick a team skill set that works well together.

And, lastly, HM depends greatly on the leaders ability to pull, to know when to stand and fight, and know when the battle is lost and to run/regroup.

You will note that in all of that the choice of which runes I pick are pretty low on the totem pole - I mostly do not care. There are team builds/tactics that need one or the other. I, personally, do not feel I can tell you from what you have said.

For me the extra attributes are more important than the extra health, so far I have not found anyplace I have seen this to be not true. As I said, no matter the level of PvE achievement you are looking at you will find a mix so this question will almost always be a wash.

If you want mostly PvE on Autopilot look up Sab's three necro hero build and have at it (it actually has a mix of no to some superior runes). An excellent example of team skills and tactics being WAY more important than what rune you pick - I doubt you will see much difference if you didn't even bother with minors for the attributes that can use them in that team build.

Yes, Verata can work, but it doesn't work well. Why? You face 3 to 6 Scarabs, all using the same skill. It has a 5 second recharge. If each of them removes one minion from your hero, you now have to wait for the recharge on your hero's Gaze to get them back. Even if there are only 3, and only 2 remove a minion, the third will typically add that minion to itself. Either way, you have multiple uses of Gaze, and the Scarabs can use their Gaze multiple times. Unless you took multiple heroes with that skill, it is a losing battle, the Scarabs will always have more uses of Gaze. Aura can work for recovering all of them, but it has a 30 second recharge, so you have to kill off the Scarabs before using that one.

I learned to just deal with no MM in those areas, as I would rather have my heroes contributing to the fight, not battling over minion control.

But as you can see, this topic has some people saying minor runes are best, and some saying superior runes are best, and some that say a mix of both is best. I go back to my original statement, it is a matter of personal preference and playstyle.

Let me add another 2 cents to this (making 4 cents so far, or maybe no sense)

Much of the debate over +3 vs +2 vs +1 revolves around personal preference and playstyle (and ability) and also, where in the game you are.

In Normal Mode, all 3 campaigns and most of EotN is easy enough that using +3 runes is not a big problem. The loss in health is outweighed by the increase speed of killing the foes. Much of Hard Mode is the same way. As you get further into the game, and further into some of the harder areas, the toughness of some of the opponents means longer battles, in which case, how long you (and your heroes) can survive, particularly vs degen and conditions, becomes more of an issue.

Plus, with the addition of more skills that rely on various title tracks, the absolute value of some attribute lines is less important. Take my Ranger's current skill bar du-jour:

[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Barrage[/skill][wiki]Never Rampage Alone[/wiki] - [wiki]Pain Inverter[/wiki][skill]Throw Dirt[/skill][skill]Comfort Animal[/skill][skill]Charm Animal[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

Neither of the Beast Mastery skills are really dependent upon the level of Beast Mastery.
The 2 Expertise skills have very little reliance on the level of Expertise - and Throw Dirt is the skill most often replaced by something else, depending upon the situation. (It happens to be there atm)
Barrage, the only Marksmanship skill, goes from +19 damage (at 14 in marks) to +21 with 16 in marksmanship.
The other two skills rely on my Sunspear and Asuran title tracks.

So, in this case, I wouldn't take the -75 health hit to only increase my Barrage by +2. Increasing Beast Mastery, likewise has little effect. Increasing Expertise has the greatest effect, but again, not enough to justify the health loss for me (but that is where I might consider it)

Btw: there's no point on commenting on this skill bar. It is used in conjunction with other people/heroes and is subject to change without notice (or reason).

i personally run +1 on every hero, and 615 health on all heros. Heros by them selvs fail at kiting, and will take more damage. The only exception I make for heros is my koss runs 585 health, this way if i do bring koss, i know AI monsters will target him more chances then other heros, do to the AI coding to target the person with lowest health (this explains why a dp'ed player is always being hit first)

i find having to wait an extra 2 seconds to kill a group is better then having heros die. as i am running a prot build with 3 heros and hench, its pretty hard for a hero to die with 600+ health and a proper prot monk telling them what to do.