However, I have today read this today, Gaile's reply to someone claiming the bots make sales. I found the answer most surprising:
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Iuris
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Fril Estelin
Originally Posted by Iuris
However, I have today read this today, Gaile's reply to someone claiming the bots make sales. I found the answer most surprising:
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Orange Milk
Riot Narita
Rathcail
Originally Posted by Hissy
Far more likely that they buy existing accounts from players (maybe using virtual money), hack/steal accounts, and use whatever other exploits are available to gain free access to the game.
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Iuris
Commander Ryker
Coridan
Hott Bill
Originally Posted by Coridan
trial key accounts can't trade...but they can still enter an instance drop gold/loot and let someone else pick it up...or i think they can...
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Killed u man
I MP I
Entreri
Originally Posted by I MP I
Yea I'm not surprised to see that it costs more to ban someone than it would be to make profit off a free game. Especially with prices dropping more and more on all guildwars games. Makes complete sense.
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Taki
Entreri
The inevitable "Bot" comments. Let me say this again, as I've said it before: It costs us more to ban an account than we make in profit for selling a copy of the game. Hard to grasp, I know, but Support personnel are involved, sometimes at multiple levels. We don't "auto-ban" anyone, so there's the time to pull logs, review the parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories, and more. Bots are not a profit center for us. |
Amryn
isamu kurosawa
Alex Morningstar
Originally Posted by Entreri
Pull logs, review parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories... if you're looking somewhere specific due to a /report (which has the time logged) I don't see the sum of these actions taking more then 10 minutes on average. For arguments sake, lets say a low level support guy makes $20 an hour has as one of his tasks... we're looking at $3.33 spent for a ban.
Smarter time spent is getting a programmer to write in stuff which auto flags potential bots based on behavior. However, this is a one time thing... you do this once and it's in effect forever after, and once it's in it's the exact same example as above, a low level support guy verifies and bans or doesn't ban. I hope Anet makes more then $3.33 per sale of GW. |
Entreri
Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar
You're basing your math on assumptions that it takes this supposedly low paid support guy only a few minutes when you really have no idea what his job duties entails or what it takes to ban someone.
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Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar
Having a programmer "write in stuff" is highly technical. I'm sure after they (won't) read this post, they'll get right on that. Because it isn't like a company that wants to make money wouldn't have thought about it when it came to banning bots, which Anet admits, are bad for business.
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Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar
Accounts: 1-time purchase, the earlier the campaign, the cheaper the discount. $5 says Botters don't buy their accounts from PlayNC or the neighborhood store. I bet it's a place that gives accounts away for pennies on the dollar when they aren't selling.
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Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar
Staff: Year-long payroll deduction. If you look at the amount of time they have to spend on botters v. the amount of money being made by accounts x. the amount of work Anet is having to do to make sure that bots don't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up the economy... We're talking taxes, accountants, supervisors, supervisors to supervise the supervisors. Oh, lawyers. Lets add programmers and their bosses too, just because you brought them up.
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Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar
Yeah. It's math dude. Don't assume. You either play a game where bots cost everyone money and are therefore stigmatized by the community and the company (a good thing) or you play for a bunch of liars who secretly want the bots to keep botting (bad) even though it brings in an unatural amount of in-game gold that makes it harder for the average joe (us) to play so we rage-quit and go play WoW.
I'll assume that bots are stigmatized and avoid WoW, thx. |
Risus
milan
Originally Posted by Taki
They aren't losing money from support doing what support gets paid to do.
If you get paid a salary and say, work at a company's help desk/suport center, whether you get 10 calls one day and 120 the next, your salary remains the same regardless of the number of calls processed. If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, stfu. |
Amryn
Buzzer
Originally Posted by Risus
Also, I don't think it could cost $80 to ban a bot.
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Fril Estelin
Originally Posted by Entreri
It does only take a low level support guy to check log files. This is a reasonable assumption. If you disagree, explain why a low level support guy wouldn't be able to handle making a ban.
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Here's another thought. Active players have support costs also. If an account gets banned, it no longer has those support costs. |
Case 1 - Bot guy buys a new account for 50 bucks, he gets banned. A-net made say 35 bucks originally off the account (they don't make the full retail price) Case 2 - Bot guy buys a used account off someone for 10 bucks. A-net still made 35 bucks originally off the account because that's what the original guy paid. |
Also, like mentioned above, every active account also takes money to maintain. |
'Does the action of banning an account cost more then the money A-net made from selling the account?'. Gaile says yes, I say no. |
Miska Bow
Xylia
Originally Posted by Taki
If you get paid a salary and say, work at a company's help desk/suport center, whether you get 10 calls one day and 120 the next, your salary remains the same regardless of the number of calls processed.
Unless their support gets paid by the hour or by number of tickets opened/closed that claim is complete bullshit. Perhaps they're using logic like "if we didn't have a support team then we wouldn't have to pay them." |
Originally Posted by Taki
If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, stfu.
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Have you ever looked at a log? If you think that you can be "low level support" and understand logs, I think you don't understand the logic behind them. They're not a list of nice messages (e.g. "the user did this", "the server did that") but usually complex sequence of command input and output.
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Originally Posted by Entreri
Pull logs, review parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories... if you're looking somewhere specific due to a /report (which has the time logged) I don't see the sum of these actions taking more then 10 minutes on average. For arguments sake, lets say a low level support guy makes $20 an hour has as one of his tasks... we're looking at $3.33 spent for a ban.
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Entreri
Originally Posted by Xylia
In addition to the fact that I think you are underestimating the amount of time they spend reviewing the logs...
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Originally Posted by Xylia
So if that employee spends even 1 hour reviewing logs, then they've probably spent more than a-net makes off of one sale of prophecies (which is retailing for about $30 now, so there's no way that they could make $40, even if they got 100% of the cost, which they don't).
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
And we should give you more credit because of ... ? Honestly, either you write a perfect mathematical inequation disproving Gaile's statement (you'd have to know exactly how much Anet earns, the employee salaries, cost of maintaining servers, etc.), or you're simply giving an unfounded subjective opinion (which is your right, but it should be treated as an opinion and nothing more).
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DarkFlame
Originally Posted by Entreri
Don't think they spend one hour reviewing logs of each bot. If they did it would be horribly inefficient. Here's why:
1. Support guy gets the user name of a player suspected to be a bot via automated methods. 2. He checks if they're online, if not leave them on the list and go to the next guy 3. He finds a guy online and messages them. "Hey, this is Anet tech support. Please talk to me and let me know if you're a bot". Have the gw code make it obvious this is coming from an admin and difficult to miss. (wait 1 minute) 4. Observe that the player is doing stuff/farming. Message them again. "This is Anet tech support. I'm going to have to put a ban on your account if you don't respond. Please let me know you're here." (wait 1 minute) 5. Give a final warning 6. If they kept farming and didn't answer any of these or change behavior then place the ban. Log the time for reference if they challenge it. 7. Go back to 1 Done in under 5 minutes. Anet doesn't do this (I assume, cause I've never heard of anyone being questioned in game). Here's the point... why doesn't Anet do this? The implied answer is because this is more work then Anet currently spends on determining who is a bot. If they were spending more then five minutes on making the ban, they would do this and save money. You don't need the CEO, or a programmer, or even a high level support guy to do the steps above. |
strcpy
Fril Estelin
Originally Posted by Entreri
You can estimate to see if something is way off. That's what I'm doing here.
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Thorondor Port
Quaker
Originally Posted by Killed u man
Hmm, Also, it costs Anet 80$ too ban a guy?
![]() (If you have no common sense/clue what you're talking about, then don't ![]() |
Stormlord Alex
Originally Posted by Thorondor Port
lmaolmaolmaoWAITwaitwait.
It costs Anet more to ban someone than the purchase of a new game? uh....whos doing these bans? They're not getting paid enough |
Antheus
Originally Posted by strcpy
Of course, that is why a great deal of people never make it into management and even then stay in low to mid level positions. It is also why they tend to think their bosses stupid and almost always find that their promoted co-worker "betrays" them
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there are many people I would *love* to see put in the management position they think they know so well. |
strcpy
Originally Posted by Antheus
I wouldn't. There's too many of them in those positions as it is. We need more of those that can handle such positions.
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Entreri
Originally Posted by DarkFlame
Because there's such a thing as bot tenders waiting to respond to such a prompt. Because such responses can also be scripted. Because there's also such a thing as a language barrier. Because one can turn off all chat and set their status to offline. Because one can be playing for so long they don't even realize someones talking to them, or being spammed with whispers/guild/alliance chat. Because there's also such an excuse as that they are playing on an old crap machine and are horribly lagged. And a half dozen other excuses I'm too tired to think of/make up.
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Originally Posted by DarkFlame
And while we are on that subject, have you ever seen a log file? Do you honestly believe its something as simple as a text file that reads "player a moves right y times, moves forward z times, mashes button x times, etc..." Its in code, with a crazy number of other information all jumboed in a mess that will make your eyes bleed if you stare at it long enough. 10 minutes is no where near enough time to read a log file.
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Originally Posted by DarkFlame
Bottom line, bots are bad for the game. They introduce excessive amounts of gold into the game and ruin economies. That means bad publicity, which means less games sell, which also means money lost..... (snip)
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Entreri
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Or because you underestimated their server costs by a factor of 10.
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Once more, until you put your subjective opinion into number, it will remain what it is, i.e., an unfounded opinion, and nothing more.
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Fril Estelin
Originally Posted by Entreri
I backed up what I said with reasoning and you didn't.
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Entreri
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
instead of answering what you think ANet staff is paid you're asking me to tell you how much
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Originally Posted by Entreri
For arguments sake, lets say a low level support guy makes $20 an hour has as one of his tasks
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Taki
Originally Posted by Xylia
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Dweasel
Originally Posted by Entreri
I think you're missing the point. This was a response to Xylia's implication that it is currently taking A-net hours to tell if somebody is a bot or not. I suggested a theoretical cost effective way to catch some bots. The really, really lazy bots where they don't do all those things you suggest. There's not a solution where you're going to catch every bot. There are solutions where you can catch some bots that don't require somebody to look at logs for hours.
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