Should Normal Mode not be easier?
Pandora's box
I've no problems if I have to prepare myself. I completed 2 campaigns and EotN so I know my way in the game. But I don't like it to find out my build is wrong at the end of the level and the need to reformat my team for about every other dungeon. That's simply not done for playing 1 or 2 hours at the end of the evening. I know most people here like hard games, but since we have HM for that...
Shanaeri Rynale
I think Murukai in Normal mode has waay more HP than in Hard mode, not seen it fixed on a bug update.
Unholy Tank V
I have beaten every dungeon useing the same exact H/H team on everyone.
3 Monks- 2 heal 1 Prot
1 Necro-Blood Ritual
2 Mele-2 Wars or 1 Derv/1War
2 Ele- Nukers
3 Monks- 2 heal 1 Prot
1 Necro-Blood Ritual
2 Mele-2 Wars or 1 Derv/1War
2 Ele- Nukers
tmr819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
... Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.
Playing 3 dungeon levels smootly should not end in puzzle where you:
1. have to figure out a completely new build
2. have to capture a new skillset before you can continue
Maybe this is fun for HM players but please let NM players do it the way they like to play most: explore, kill, some puzzles and a satisfactory smooth end of the level. Giving a good feeling when you turn the computer off and go to sleep. Murakai/Temple of the Damned was a wakeup call for me. Took me quite a while to get to Murakai my first time through that dungeon and I got my rear-end handed to me by the boss at the end. I was sooo
and 
and .
However, and meaning no disrespect, if you are a casual player and don't want to get to the end of a dungeon and ... LOSE ... you need to plan ahead. I will tell you right now that some (most, in fact) of the dungeon end bosses make Murakai and Remnant of Antiquities look like real wimps.
Next time, prepare beforehand. Some dungeons are going to be particularly brutal and unforgiving (e.g., Catacombs of Kathandrax; Vloxen Excavations; the "Master's Quests" dungeons Shards of Orr, Frostmaw's Burrows, and Rragar's Menagerie; and, of course, Slaver's Exile
) if you fail to, as others have suggested, do your "homework" before you head into them.
Playing 3 dungeon levels smootly should not end in puzzle where you:
1. have to figure out a completely new build
2. have to capture a new skillset before you can continue
Maybe this is fun for HM players but please let NM players do it the way they like to play most: explore, kill, some puzzles and a satisfactory smooth end of the level. Giving a good feeling when you turn the computer off and go to sleep. Murakai/Temple of the Damned was a wakeup call for me. Took me quite a while to get to Murakai my first time through that dungeon and I got my rear-end handed to me by the boss at the end. I was sooo
and However, and meaning no disrespect, if you are a casual player and don't want to get to the end of a dungeon and ... LOSE ... you need to plan ahead. I will tell you right now that some (most, in fact) of the dungeon end bosses make Murakai and Remnant of Antiquities look like real wimps.
Next time, prepare beforehand. Some dungeons are going to be particularly brutal and unforgiving (e.g., Catacombs of Kathandrax; Vloxen Excavations; the "Master's Quests" dungeons Shards of Orr, Frostmaw's Burrows, and Rragar's Menagerie; and, of course, Slaver's Exile
) if you fail to, as others have suggested, do your "homework" before you head into them.
crazybanshee
No, normal mode was easy enough. I play an ele, basically an sf nuker and I remember when gwen came out pretty much ALL you heard were sf nukers
b!tching about how they couldn't be sf nukers anymore, wah wah wah, why is cruel anet making us play other builds. You know what? I'm glad they made me switch builds. I finally could stop playing on autopilot and play with some new skills. I dig playing air spiker and earth tank too. Water not so much, it has its purpose but I like dealing damage. And quite frankly, within days of gwen being around everything you ever need to know was on wiki already, so you never have to go to a dungeon with the wrong heroes/wrong builds. And consumables are a waste of money except in very few hm areas.
b!tching about how they couldn't be sf nukers anymore, wah wah wah, why is cruel anet making us play other builds. You know what? I'm glad they made me switch builds. I finally could stop playing on autopilot and play with some new skills. I dig playing air spiker and earth tank too. Water not so much, it has its purpose but I like dealing damage. And quite frankly, within days of gwen being around everything you ever need to know was on wiki already, so you never have to go to a dungeon with the wrong heroes/wrong builds. And consumables are a waste of money except in very few hm areas.
angmar_nite
these people never realized how challenging THK used to be. I beat HOS with a three necro build running SH.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
I've no problems if I have to prepare myself. I completed 2 campaigns and EotN so I know my way in the game. But I don't like it to find out my build is wrong at the end of the level and the need to reformat my team for about every other dungeon. That's simply not done for playing 1 or 2 hours at the end of the evening. I know most people here like hard games, but since we have HM for that...
Is reading wiki too hard for you? :\
We don't necessarily want a hard game, no. But we do want the game to be somewhat challenging. As it is, NM is quite easy, and it doesn't need to be dumbed down more then it already is. Read up on the enemies skills and counter them, that's all NM is.
We don't necessarily want a hard game, no. But we do want the game to be somewhat challenging. As it is, NM is quite easy, and it doesn't need to be dumbed down more then it already is. Read up on the enemies skills and counter them, that's all NM is.
Wrath of m0o
EoTn NM is not hard. Well maby since ive been playing for 3 years and i think i know what im doing at times, i can say that. You should learn to play Guildwars on Prophecies first, imo. Then move onto factions and Nightfall, Learn some builds, cap some elites. EoTn was supposed to be challenging, and im glad it is, it gives us seasoned players something to do besides sit back and hit C-spacebar.
And no, it definatly shouldnt get any easier than it already is.
And no, it definatly shouldnt get any easier than it already is.
Wakka
I always thought expansion packs were supposed to be harder than the original? No? *shrugs*
Pandora's box
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wakka
I always thought expansion packs were supposed to be harder than the original? No? *shrugs*
And it is! With all level 20+ monsters around it gives exactly what we can expect from an expansion. But endlevel bosses wiping out parties in one blow? I don’t understand how anyone can like that. I mean, a skill like Murakai's Storm of Souls, that’s just insane! Should never be allowed in Normal Mode!
Another thing that is bothering me is that EotN often is mentioned as a testing place for GW2. If I buy GW2 I want to be 100% sure that I can play all content. It should not be a game where only so called 'elite players' with lots of time for studying can beat sweet bonus features. If EotN is really a testcase, than there is much work to do before everyone is satisfied.
Arkantos
Quote:
Lately I’ve spend more time in reading the wiki than actually playing the game. That’s not my idea of having fun in Normal Mode. If its happening 1 time, ok, no problem. But for every new dungeon?
It takes less then 5 minutes to find the information you need. Once you have it, you won't need to read it again. |
Normal mode isn't supposed to be super easy. It's not supposed to be hard either. That's why it's in between (excluding elite areas). Of course some parts are going to be challenging, why would anyone play a game if there was no challenge? I think you just need to get better at the game, plain and simple. When you come across an obstacle, instead of whining and asking for it to be made easier, overcome it. Thousands of others have beaten it, there's no reason why you can't. AlienFromBeyond
...People have trouble with Murakai in NM? I farmed that dungeon in my sleep before we got HM in GWEN.
Pandora's box
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond
...People have trouble with Murakai in NM? I farmed that dungeon in my sleep before we got HM in GWEN.
Actually I still don't understand it myself. I assumed it was Murakai's Storm of souls killing me but at the other hand... My party was doing quite well, attacking from the east, all enmies there killed. Murakai slowly went down and my party was healing itself quite well. Than suddenly... BWAM! all members from almost max to zero health, complete party wiped out...
Longasc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
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@tmakinen: About what strawman argument are you talking, my examples were there to demonstrate what is supposedly too hard for a player that finds NM too difficult and wants an easy mode!
It seems to me you are on a quest to make things so smooth and easy that nothing is left. What are "rough edges" to you? What is a "gimmick build"?
So you consider Cyndr too hard in NM for certain parties. I disagree, it cannot be made easier without losing all appeal.
Balance does not seem to be the strong point of ANet. If something it is considered too difficult, it is only a matter of time till ANY obstacle that ANYONE could ever fail there gets removed. And this is wrong.
The OP was complaining about normal mode being too hard in general. And forget about this OP doing that:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
A balanced H+H team can beat Shards of Orr.
Agreed. Does this mean Shards does need to get even more "balanced" because some people cannot do it? Not at all.
JoeKnowMo
I think the OP's unfortunate choice of the thread's title derailed this thing from the very beginning.
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
The thread should have been titled: "Should dungeon end-bosses require specialized builds?" Quoting the OP: Quote: Way too often I find myself in a hopeless situation when I finally get to the endlevel monster. Cyndr, Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.
The OP is not requesting that NM be toned down all over. The OP is suggesting that balanced builds that work in all areas of a dungeon often fail at the end boss thanks to a few missing skills.
Discuss.
Wakka
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo
The OP is not requesting that NM be toned down all over. The OP is suggesting that balanced builds that work in all areas of a dungeon often fail at the end boss thanks to a few missing skills.
Discuss. You cant blame the game if you come unprepared. EDIT: Also consumables help.
Melody Cross
I see the OPs point, but disagree with it too. GW:EN was intended as elite content for players who had already beaten the game(s). Dungeons are elite content for players who have beaten GW:EN and have nothing better to do than farm. If nothing n NM was difficult it would be easy mode, not normal.
GGs
greywolf31
Originally I felt the same way as the OP especially in regards to the Remnant.
I thought if my builds can get through the dungeon why can't I get through the Boss? Sure he should be harder, but I should still be able to take him down. I tried a ton of things... But in the end it was perseverance, a willingness to adapt and improvise, and finally I overcame the obstacle. Now NM in GW:EN is not your NM in the other campaigns that's for sure. I find it frustrating but in the end when I do beat it I feel great about it. It was a challenge! Sure it may take me longer than most to get it done as I am slow in the adapting dept. lol Here is an example of how I did it... I took down the Remnant last night with my Mesmer. Used Ursan Blessing (@ norn 6), MoW & Livia (Sab's), Pyre (Int), Zho, Cynn, Lina, and Mhenlo. I flagged my party into the dead zone on the left, maybe a bit too far out as the last battle seemed to take a while, but it worked. Notes on H&Hs... My usual team aside from my Char is, the 3 Necros, Cynn/Herta, Eve, Lina, Mhenlo. I tried it w/o Eve last night and noticed no Major difference in e-management. I added Zho and it seemed to help with keeping up pressure. (It prolly helped with the interrupting as well, but I am sure I couldn't tell you... lol) So the new lineup will be Zho replaces Eve. I'll keep switching Cynn and Herta as needed, or if I don't need interrupt I'll use both Cynn and Herta, and see if e-management is still not an issue. Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome! So what if it pisses ya off, hell I am pissed off a lot by my inabilities to "walk" right through stuff. The bigger the pain the greater the sense of accomplishment. It's all in the attitude you take. BTW- Thanks to all of you on Guru for your advise and tips. Wiki may be our friend but you guys are our allies. tekDragon
Yes... GW is a game about adapting, tweaking your strategy, and trying different approaches. Unfortunately the OP is unwilling to do that (look at some of his/her earlier posts) and therein lies the problem.
Wakka
Quote:
Here is an example of how I did it... | I took down the Remnant last night with my Mesmer. Used Ursan Blessing (@ norn 6), MoW & Livia (Sab's), Pyre (Int), Zho, Cynn, Lina, and Mhenlo This may come as a shock to you all, but there are other people in Guild Wars. The game isn't designed for H/H (except maybe NF lol). If you get a decent 8 man team you can sear through anything on Normal Mode and Hard Mode with them. If your failing where others don't, then prehaps you can't micromanage as well? Get better. EDIT: Also ask for advice on Guild/Alliance chat for the Dungeon your about to enter, chances are someone has already done it and will be able to warn you of any bosses that require you to take extra caution.
greywolf31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakka
This may come as a shock to you all, but there are other people in Guild Wars. The game isn't designed for H/H (except maybe NF lol). If you get a decent 8 man team you can sear through anything on Normal Mode and Hard Mode with them.
If your failing where others don't, then prehaps you can't micromanage as well? Get better. EDIT: Also ask for advice on Guild/Alliance chat for the Dungeon your about to enter, chances are someone has already done it and will be able to warn you of any bosses that require you to take extra caution. I was trying to get across to the OP that a positive attitude goes a long way to getting through tough times. Actually, I am getting better, thank you... I totally suck at micromanaging, and I admit it freely, I also suck at a lot of other finer points of gameplaying. I don't have an issue with that at all. I think the game is designed for both Player interaction and H&H interaction. I use both, my schedule is fluctuating and I sometimes do stuff with my guild or not. I rarely ever PUG... too many nightmares there... I don't need to drag my guildies into NM Quest/Missions as those can be done easily enough. When I do need help I ask, when I'm asked I help. And grinding for rep points, c'mon who wants to be bothered with that unless they need it as well? Also, I find it easier to do that solo-w/H&H as I can go as fast or slow as I like w/o messin' with someone else's timetable. (Cuz I tend to not be so "ogogogogogog" as most of the grinders want/need me to be) LOL I have fun, and I hang with some of the Kewlest PPL in the game. TYVM.  Key Words Here... GAME and FUN =)
Wakka
Quote:
Key Words Here... GAME and FUN
Yes I get where your comin from, and im all for the fun stuff, wooooo, but he's blaming ANet and GW for making the game too hard when there's a whole array of players here who have proven that the game isn't too hard.
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Pandora's box
It's good to see there are a lot of helpful people in this community!
Indeed, the title is a bit misleading, its more about endlevel bosses, the time it takes to get to them and the difference in toughness of the overall dungeon and the endlevel boss. For me time is of he essence. If every boss could be reached so fast as 'A time for heroes' than I would have no doubt and experience with lots of builds until I found the right one. But unfortunately it often takes 2 hours to get to the boss and in that case I want to be *absolutely* sure to have the right build! Because to me it feels like a waste of time when I'm playing for 2 hours at evening, without result. Anyway, the weekend is for trying out new builds and there are 2 points I would like to see more clear: 1. Interrupts I notice that having 1 100% interupter in the party (Ra/Me) does not work. Adding a 2nd one drops the amount of dmg the party does, making it much harder to cut through the crowds of opponents. I myself don't play any interrupter chr. Suggestions? 2. Positioning heroes and henchmen There are a lot of suggestions how to position a party against endlevel monsters (mostly to avoid high level AoE dmg). I remember the Cyndr discussion but at the end I chose to do it with a massive touch team, with no positioning at all. The main problem with positioning at the endlevel boss is: Setting flags 1 by 1 causes the heroes to run to their positions 1 by 1. By the time I'm ready the first hero is already killed. What is the trick?
greywolf31
I used the flag All, one...
If you use 1,2,3 first to flag the Heroes, the "flag all" will only affect the henchies, but if you use it first then it affects the entire party of H&Hs. hope that helps. With regard to the Remnant... I was running a Mesmer/Warrior, I had Sab's MoW, and Livia build, With Cynn and Herta, and Mhenlo... When I added Pyre as an interrupter and Zho, it did decrease the amount of damage I was doing, and it also seemed to cut down on the amount of damage I was taking as a whole. And it did seem to take a long time to take down the Remnant... but compared to having to bail... well you decide. LOL Other note: no party wipe this time... =) FYI... Pain Inverter with Arcane Echo = Yeah Baby!
Proff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
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Quote: Originally Posted by Pandora's box 1. Interrupts
I notice that having 1 100% interupter in the party (Ra/Me) does not work. Adding a 2nd one drops the amount of dmg the party does, making it much harder to cut through the crowds of opponents. I myself don't play any interrupter chr. Suggestions? If you must bring 2 interupters I'd suggest using 1 hero and 1 henchman, leaving you with 2 heroes for damage and for healing you can use the 2 prot/heal henchmen. You must also realise that most bosses can be beat without interupts even in hm.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pandora's box
2. Positioning heroes and henchmen
There are a lot of suggestions how to position a party against endlevel monsters (mostly to avoid high level AoE dmg). I remember the Cyndr discussion but at the end I chose to do it with a massive touch team, with no positioning at all. The main problem with positioning at the endlevel boss is: Setting flags 1 by 1 causes the heroes to run to their positions 1 by 1. By the time I'm ready the first hero is already killed. What is the trick? Flagging should be done before you aggro, either set your team up in the way of the patrol so they come to you or if it's a boss that stays in one place you can flag your heroes and pull him towards the group never staying too far away from your monks. The last part works better with hero monks because you can pre prot but even with hench monks they should be able to keep you alive as you're the only one taking damage when pulling. Another way to keep your team from being hit by aoe is have the minions or warriors run in first and keep the pressure off of you.
greywolf31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proff
Another way to keep your team from being hit by aoe is have the minions or warriors run in first and keep the pressure off of you.
Here's something I wondered about... The minions.
To send them in first don't you have to flag olias into the fray? And if/when he dies you get a bunch of rogue minions... Does their AI target monsters/mobs first then player's party or do they just attack whatever is close? THX
RTSFirebat
I noted they tend to lock onto whatever is closest to them, which is normally the mobs they are attacking away. But sometimes they just go a bit nuts and attack mobs and your party alike.
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