I, like most others here enjoy using h/h to play anyway I want, and finding a group is usually a pain in the arse. However in EotN it seems like Anet's putting obstacles that would be no problem for a PUG but would be hell for an h/h team.
For instance look at The Elusive Golemancer quest. In that dungeon where you have to stay in the circle while walking along with that protective golem, with henchies I usually get party wipes because of their inability to keep up, and when one henchie died they all had to stop and res it while the golem was still moving. I finished this with very little trouble by making a desperate run for the end. With a PUG that would have been the simplest part of an already simple quest.
Another thing is the traps that fire jets of flame,ice,or poison depending on what dungeon you're doing. Sometimes you can even walk around the traps, but the average henchie will sometimes walk into it and if my Talon Silverwing or Zho walk through it they'll cast healing sig or troll unguent effectively killing themselves by standing in the trap.
In HoS Cyndr the Mountain Heart, the dungeon boss took me 15 seconds to kill with a PUG, which I was with because h/h teams seemed to do everything they could to wipe, while when I used henchies Pyroclastic Shot should've been more properly named Anti Henchman Shot. It's common knowledge in even PUG's to spread out but with henchies even when I micromanaged they still seemed to die too quickly. It also didn't help that Cyndr always spawned too far from Budger Blackpowder.
The best example of anti-henchie dungeons would be Catacombs of Kathandrax. With the rolling fireballs and firebombs. Despite this using Pain Inverter worked to my advantage and I still won. Sepulchre of Dragrimmar is similar to this except with water magic instead of fire. Yes I brought Herta on both of these, and no ward against elements doesn't mean I always uber pwn any boss using elemental dmg.
Some of you are probably gonna call me a noob for using bad h/h builds or something like that but I almost always use Sab's builds unless the dungeon needs specific builds.
Seems like Anet designs dungeons to discourage h/h
freaky naughty
ZenRgy
Anet wanting people to play their MMORPG with other people? How ridiculous!
ajc2123
since when do you get wiped in the elusive golemancer O_o. jsut keep pressing space on teh golem, the H/h'ies will be in the cricle fine. Stand in front of him to stop him just long enough to kill any attackers, rinse wash repeat. besides if you get in big trouble, just run the rest once ur halfway, theres a rez there so ull be fine with 15 DP......i hope.
The Meth
They design dungeon to encourage skilled playing, not their fault if your h/h team isn't good. I did all of the dungeons pretty easily h/h, then most of them again in HM.
holababe
the GOLEM quest is annoying...i bodyblocked the golem and walked through
ajc2123
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Originally Posted by holababe
the GOLEM quest is annoying...i bodyblocked the golem and walked through
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Marverick
The problem with the golem is every single time I go through, the golem stops moving but the circle keeps moving. WTF
AW Lore
Quote:
| For instance look at The Elusive Golemancer quest. In that dungeon where you have to stay in the circle while walking along with that protective golem, with henchies I usually get party wipes because of their inability to keep up, and when one henchie died they all had to stop and res it while the golem was still moving. |
ive done that quest with only H/H multiple times, and while i dislike that part of the quest, i have rarely gotten near party wipe situation.
as a matter of fact, i have done most dungeons with only H/H
Quote:
| Another thing is the traps that fire jets of flame,ice,or poison depending on what dungeon you're doing. Sometimes you can even walk around the traps, but the average henchie will sometimes walk into it and if my Talon Silverwing or Zho walk through it they'll cast healing sig or troll unguent effectively killing themselves by standing in the trap. |
but then again, waiting 10 seconds is the difference between life and death...
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| In HoS Cyndr the Mountain Heart... |
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| The best example of anti-henchie dungeons would be Catacombs of Kathandrax. With the rolling fireballs and firebombs |
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| Sepulchre of Dragrimmar is similar to this except with water magic instead of fire |
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| Some of you are probably gonna call me a noob for using bad h/h builds or something like that but I almost always use Sab's builds unless the dungeon needs specific builds. |
HayesA
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Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Anet wanting people to play their MMORPG with other people? How ridiculous!
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Plus H/H are reliable, don't rage quit, and for the most part you can set their builds.
I completed GWEN with mostly H/H teams by the way. Most of the dungeons,a nd missions on the first try.
It ain't bloody hard.
Cathode_Reborn
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Originally Posted by HayesA
Plus H/H are reliable, don't rage quit, and for the most part you can set their builds.
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freaky naughty
Just so you know I've beaten every dungeon except for Rragar's, Slaver's, and Shards with h/h I'm just naming situations where h/h puts you at a terrible disadvantage.
Sleeper Service
And despite all that, H/H remains a far better option than your average pug.
Rhedd
I don't have any complaints about dungeons and h/h.
If you really want to complain about Pyroclastic Shot, complain that it's totally un-interruptable.
Do we need another reason to make mesmers suck in PvE?
If you really want to complain about Pyroclastic Shot, complain that it's totally un-interruptable.
Do we need another reason to make mesmers suck in PvE?
Biostem
I really wouldn't classify the elusive golemancer along w/ the rest of the dungeons; sure they demand a bit more skill than the other GW stuff, but so does GWEN, overall.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Anet wanting people to play their MMORPG with other people? How ridiculous!
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That said, I've seen stupider things performed by actual people. And it's not that ANet designs dungeons to discourage h/h, it's that the AI in GW for everything is horrendous. You just gotta learn how to tame the stupid.
MithranArkanere
I've beaten all dungeons H/H, but the last two bosses of slaver's.
Forge and Duncan.
I may try them if I get time to. I'd like to hand over the book to get a title maxed.
Forge and Duncan.
I may try them if I get time to. I'd like to hand over the book to get a title maxed.
Ekelon
Let me help explain.
MMO
MASSIVE Multiplayer Online.
MMO
MASSIVE Multiplayer Online.
cosyfiep
h/h most of the dungeons (no one wants to play when I play) and the only one that caused me grief was Cyndr....otherwise they are all pretty simple with flags and the right henchies and heroes.
Kerwyn Nasilan
Most everything in EotN is H/Hable. WIth maybe Slavers which is easy with 2 people and heros easily but can be done with h/h if careful. Somethings are not easy for henchies and heros to do this is where you need to micromanage. Makes things much easier.
The Little Viking
Ive done all the is to do in GWEN with H/H. Not that hard, didnt find sabs builds till after i was going through in HM. Still dont use it, though it is good. I have to agree that cyndar is a pain, but not undoable with a bit of flagging. Really sucked on my monk. I did get 1 guild member to help after failing miserably. As for slavers and shards...They are much easier then vloxx anyday even with wells and... (ranger spirit, prevents rezzing..cant think of the name right now). But even so, they do present a challange, and that is exactly what GWEN is supose to be, a good challange. As for kathandrax...that is my most favorite dungeon of all, wish it didnt have so far a run to get to it. I will not say your heros suck, dont know the skill set up and all that, could just be a matter of timing on your part of maybe flag a bit more often. Make flagging a second nature and things will go better.
Meat Axe
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Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Anet wanting people to play their MMORPG with other people? How ridiculous!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ekelon
Let me help explain.
MMO MASSIVE Multiplayer Online. |
GW is not simply a multiplayer game. It is advertised as a game that you can play solo with heroes and henches, and with other people. Why do some people seem to be so bothered by the fact that there are people out there that prefer to play with AI over random people. I am one such person. If my brother or my friends aren't on, I generally play by myself. Sometimes I'll do some stuff with my guild, but they are generally doing something I'm not really interested in doing at that point.
I haven't really had much trouble with dungeons or anything else in EotN so far. I've completed all the missions, and a few of the easier dungeons. All with heroes and henches. Sure, I haven't tried the hard dungeons, like Slaver's or Kathandrax, but I think they are entirely possible to do with AI, if a little harder.
MithranArkanere
Well, for those that get in trouble while h/h, Anet added the consumables.
Those that do not like to play with others can farm to get those, then go even trough HM without trouble.
Those that do not like to play with others can farm to get those, then go even trough HM without trouble.
Biostem
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Originally Posted by Meat Axe
I love this argument. It always seems that someone has to make this comment every time someone mentions that something is hard to do with heroes and henches.
GW is not simply a multiplayer game. It is advertised as a game that you can play solo with heroes and henches, and with other people. Why do some people seem to be so bothered by the fact that there are people out there that prefer to play with AI over random people. I am one such person. If my brother or my friends aren't on, I generally play by myself. Sometimes I'll do some stuff with my guild, but they are generally doing something I'm not really interested in doing at that point. I haven't really had much trouble with dungeons or anything else in EotN so far. I've completed all the missions, and a few of the easier dungeons. All with heroes and henches. Sure, I haven't tried the hard dungeons, like Slaver's or Kathandrax, but I think they are entirely possible to do with AI, if a little harder. |
On a side note, I feel bad for all the canines from the Pug breed, for all the hatred their name gets here.
Kook~NBK~
I've H/H'd every dungeon except Slavers & Shards (NM) without the need for consumables. When it comes time for me to do them in HM, I'll probably PUG them and have some treats to smooth over rough spots.
Dark Paladin X
in most missions and primary quests (as well as going to your destination): H/H
dungeons: varies (secret lair of the snowmen h/h, slaver exile, better with pugs.
dungeons: varies (secret lair of the snowmen h/h, slaver exile, better with pugs.
Aera Lure
To the OP, I agree with others and say many of your problems described can be solved with a bit more careful flagging. Elusive Golemancer for example, you can just keep repositioning the flag among the other micromanaging you are doing, as well as careful target selection. Have done that H/H many times with no issues.
As for the MMO/multiplayer comment, well, Guild Wars has always had the option to play alone with AI. Heroes tilted the balance to make it rather easy to do so, especially if you also want to add consumables into the mix. The result is certainly less grouping. No denying that. Personally, I lament that evolution and prefer it back when you could use AI for most things, but it was sometimes tricky, hence people more often sought out groups for a few things.
As for the MMO/multiplayer comment, well, Guild Wars has always had the option to play alone with AI. Heroes tilted the balance to make it rather easy to do so, especially if you also want to add consumables into the mix. The result is certainly less grouping. No denying that. Personally, I lament that evolution and prefer it back when you could use AI for most things, but it was sometimes tricky, hence people more often sought out groups for a few things.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by freaky naughty
For instance look at The Elusive Golemancer quest. In that dungeon where you have to stay in the circle while walking along with that protective golem, with henchies I usually get party wipes because of their inability to keep up, and when one henchie died they all had to stop and res it while the golem was still moving. I finished this with very little trouble by making a desperate run for the end. With a PUG that would have been the simplest part of an already simple quest.
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I did the mission 3/4 times with other players, and always had a few deaths there, making for a party wipe so we'd res to the other side. Everytime I do it H/H, I have no problems at all. As long as you stay directly in front of the worker golem to slow him down, you don't even need to flag, the H/H stay with you. You can easily make it to the other end safe and sound.
The others just involve some careful flagging and spreading out, though I do wish we could somehow make the henchies spread out, because they will still tend to die by AoE. We need some formation buttons, perhaps with either pre-made formations (like spread out, front/middle/back-line, crescent, etc.), or even create-our-own formations (such as assigning the teammate numbers to different points around your dot on the radar, and saving that as a formation). Would also be nice to enhance the H/H AI a bit more to scatter automatically from AoE, but without over-aggroing nearby groups.
Gattocheese
Yep. I had no problem with the Elusive Golemancer. Most of Guild Wars is trial and error, even with a real group. You can look at your /deaths and see that this game doesnt have a biased opinion on dieing and trying again.
I also just did two dungeons in Slavers Exile with my H/H about a month or two ago. Wasnt too hard, just slower.
I also just did two dungeons in Slavers Exile with my H/H about a month or two ago. Wasnt too hard, just slower.
some guy
The mentioned can be easily done with h/h. The golem 1, just body block the golem to let ur team heal. For the bug anti hench wurm, flag heroes apart, and flag the 4 henchies into a corner (but make sure they r still in spell and damage range) and there you go. I did those 2 all with h/h and did it no prob on the first time.
Default Name
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Originally Posted by Ekelon
Let me help explain.
MMO MASSIVE Multiplayer Online. |
As in Cooperative Online Role Playing Game?
And cooperating with AI isn't cooperating?
Numa Pompilius
ANet may be trying to kill soloplay, but the dungeons don't show it. Especially not Oolas Lab, which I did yesterday with H/H.
If the OP had complained about not letting H/H teams into the "elite" areas I'd have agreed that it sucked, but now?
/unsigned, and hope you get better soon!
If the OP had complained about not letting H/H teams into the "elite" areas I'd have agreed that it sucked, but now?
/unsigned, and hope you get better soon!
Darkobra
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Originally Posted by Ekelon
Let me help explain.
MMO MASSIVE Multiplayer Online. |
Dronte
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ekelon
Let me help explain.
MMO MASSIVE Multiplayer Online. |
RotteN
/care what GW "is"
I never had problems with H/H. As long as you know what you're doing and are able to use those 4 flags you'll be fine.
I never had problems with H/H. As long as you know what you're doing and are able to use those 4 flags you'll be fine.
cloudbunny
I see some pug hate. In my experience PUGs are seldom as bad as they are said to be.
One small hobby of mine is to join and help PUGs through Gate of Madness + bonus (for free). So far I have pugged it about 15 times in NM and a few in HM. Only failed twice, but then a retry was successful. I have about the same rate of success doing it with guildies, so I can't say PuGs are bad.
So late in the game most players are pretty experienced, however they may not do things in exactly the same way. So if a party starts out a bit shaky that's just natural. It is the same with any players playing together for the first time.
The reasons I like GoM, is that there are a lot of different ways do that mission, all equally successful, though some are a bit easier or faster. Of course most players have slightly different ideas of the "best way" to do it.
Generally, I have the same experience for other mission/quest pugs. Farming pugs though, are a different story and I really try to avoid those. Many people in a "farming pug" seem to expect everyone to do everything exactly as they are used to. If not, a lot of noob-calling arises.
As for H&H, very few things are unbeatable in my experience. A change of tactic or teambuild often solves occasional problems.
Regards,
Cloudbunny
One small hobby of mine is to join and help PUGs through Gate of Madness + bonus (for free). So far I have pugged it about 15 times in NM and a few in HM. Only failed twice, but then a retry was successful. I have about the same rate of success doing it with guildies, so I can't say PuGs are bad.
So late in the game most players are pretty experienced, however they may not do things in exactly the same way. So if a party starts out a bit shaky that's just natural. It is the same with any players playing together for the first time.
The reasons I like GoM, is that there are a lot of different ways do that mission, all equally successful, though some are a bit easier or faster. Of course most players have slightly different ideas of the "best way" to do it.
Generally, I have the same experience for other mission/quest pugs. Farming pugs though, are a different story and I really try to avoid those. Many people in a "farming pug" seem to expect everyone to do everything exactly as they are used to. If not, a lot of noob-calling arises.
As for H&H, very few things are unbeatable in my experience. A change of tactic or teambuild often solves occasional problems.
Regards,
Cloudbunny
Red Sonya
Quote:
| We need some formation buttons, perhaps with either pre-made formations (like spread out, front/middle/back-line, crescent, etc.), or even create-our-own formations (such as assigning the teammate numbers to different points around your dot on the radar, and saving that as a formation). |
Phoenix Tears
Quote:
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Originally Posted by freaky naughty
I, like most others here enjoy using h/h to play anyway I want, and finding a group is usually a pain in the arse. However in EotN it seems like Anet's putting obstacles that would be no problem for a PUG but would be hell for an h/h team.
For instance look at The Elusive Golemancer quest. In that dungeon where you have to stay in the circle while walking along with that protective golem, with henchies I usually get party wipes because of their inability to keep up, and when one henchie died they all had to stop and res it while the golem was still moving. I finished this with very little trouble by making a desperate run for the end. With a PUG that would have been the simplest part of an already simple quest. Another thing is the traps that fire jets of flame,ice,or poison depending on what dungeon you're doing. Sometimes you can even walk around the traps, but the average henchie will sometimes walk into it and if my Talon Silverwing or Zho walk through it they'll cast healing sig or troll unguent effectively killing themselves by standing in the trap. In HoS Cyndr the Mountain Heart, the dungeon boss took me 15 seconds to kill with a PUG, which I was with because h/h teams seemed to do everything they could to wipe, while when I used henchies Pyroclastic Shot should've been more properly named Anti Henchman Shot. It's common knowledge in even PUG's to spread out but with henchies even when I micromanaged they still seemed to die too quickly. It also didn't help that Cyndr always spawned too far from Budger Blackpowder. The best example of anti-henchie dungeons would be Catacombs of Kathandrax. With the rolling fireballs and firebombs. Despite this using Pain Inverter worked to my advantage and I still won. Sepulchre of Dragrimmar is similar to this except with water magic instead of fire. Yes I brought Herta on both of these, and no ward against elements doesn't mean I always uber pwn any boss using elemental dmg. Some of you are probably gonna call me a noob for using bad h/h builds or something like that but I almost always use Sab's builds unless the dungeon needs specific builds. |
quit whining, become better playing the game.
Only Noobs have problems with those traps....for wtf can you FLAG your heroes and henchs >.<
Marverick
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Everything you mentioned can be done with H/H, albeit some are a bit tough. The Golemancer mission is actually one of those things that are easier with H/H than with even one other teammate. The reason for this is because the H/H will stay glued to you the whole time, and follow your flags. Other players more often than not won't, and may even be misguided by lag, thinking the worker golem is somewhere it really isn't.
I did the mission 3/4 times with other players, and always had a few deaths there, making for a party wipe so we'd res to the other side. Everytime I do it H/H, I have no problems at all. As long as you stay directly in front of the worker golem to slow him down, you don't even need to flag, the H/H stay with you. You can easily make it to the other end safe and sound. The others just involve some careful flagging and spreading out, though I do wish we could somehow make the henchies spread out, because they will still tend to die by AoE. We need some formation buttons, perhaps with either pre-made formations (like spread out, front/middle/back-line, crescent, etc.), or even create-our-own formations (such as assigning the teammate numbers to different points around your dot on the radar, and saving that as a formation). Would also be nice to enhance the H/H AI a bit more to scatter automatically from AoE, but without over-aggroing nearby groups. |
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Marverick
If you stand in front of the golem, the golem will stop moving, yes, but the circle will keep moving forward by itself.
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Destro Maniak
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Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Anet wanting people to play their MMORPG with other people? How ridiculous!
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