Hi guys!
can someone please give me some advice doing this with H/H in HM ?
i tried this with Sabs Necros ...
thanks very much
Rragars Menagerie HM ! with H/H help
ludwigma
Jaceb
It's very tough, obvious yeah but it has to be said again. If you're going for the EoTN title - just skip menagerie. But anyway, try to do it with someone so you can have 6 heroes for much easier time.
Basically any builds that you used to vanquish the charr lands will work in there (dont use the siege devourer). If you can beat the hardest groups without it on Grothmar Wardowns. Those groups that have flameshielders and two healers with melee & Wardkeepers you're good to try it at least.
General Ideas :
[wiki]Frozen Soil[/wiki] - this can help but it also hurts.
- Most melee charr can res with a signet but it's wierd they dont seem to resurrect that much.
- Up to you if you think you need it, it can be done without too.
[wiki]Defile Flesh[/wiki] - you need something that can gimp how much they heal.
alternative choices: [wiki]Lingering Curse[/wiki], [wiki]Deep Wound[/wiki].
Stuff that can help you:
+ Hexes play a big part on Charr tactics, some removal wont hurt.
+ Ebon battle standards for either damage or defenses.
- Consumables : Armor of Salvation, Celerity, Grail & DP removal. The whole set.
* You might need these. Not saying that it can't be done without these but hey they help alot.
+ The higher your Ebon rank is the better , more bonus armor vs charr.
+ Dont rely on Dazed alone to do the trick, [wiki]Charr Mender[/wiki]'s remove it quickly.
+ They're vulnerable to Mark of Pain + Ebon Assassin trick since they like to group hug.
- Charr Warden (Boss) : Can hit for 300+ with a bow on 60AL.
* They can one-shot people with DP (even with -15% with a crazy damage spike).
* Dont mess with them if not needed. You can skip both Wardens on LVL1.
+ Mesmer that can shutdown caster(monk/mender) while you take them down can be very usefull.
Here's my builds that i used to vanquish Grothmar Wardowns & Dalada Uplands without using the Siege Devourer. Maybe these provide some guidance for Menagerie too but since these are for that particular zone only, these might not really work for that dungeon without reworking something out. I've been there with these builds but since we were wiped by the first group so i called it a failure but we were able to continue (only with Consumables).
- N/Ritualist healer: OAhkQIGZILmD2WaO5GmasxZVVAA
* Wailing Weapon for interrupting attackers. (Warmonger's is a good replacement, if not better).
* Protective Was Kaolai - can prevent some smaller AoE damage spikes.
* So far, i've found that secondary healer is really helpfull incase of a bad pull / Ooze adds.
- SS necro/monk: OANDY5xfK5RgkI1BqvS1jAA
* Rigor Mortis to prevent blocking, single target weaken etc. (vs Charr Wardkeepers)
* Uses defile flesh & some enchant removal.
* Shielding hands & Prot Spirit.
* Can be refined to suit your needs: Aegis, Prot Sprit, enfeebling blood. But keep Rigor Mortis.
- MM "Jagged Bones" / Monk: OANEQTxW+5UFOqLV0gioeEQEAA
* Aegis & Prot Spirit.
* Dark Bond.
* Basic meat buffer. Could be something else too if you dont want an MM.
* Well of the Profane can be quite usefull.
- My paragon build: OQCkUem0JjqUooF2IGQ4EmHm7m8G
* Uses "There's nothing to fear!" - provides defense & hex removal.
* Holy Spear - i did have an idea for that, to blow up spirits that Charr Avengers use.
* For pure damage spiking take: [wiki]Spear of Lightning[/wiki] & [wiki]Cruel Spear[/wiki].
Now before you go, i'd practice at Grothmar Wardowns because the charr group layout is similar to what you face in Menagerie. It comes down to killing the right ones first, anyone who can resurrect or the healer (for some situations)..
edit: added new stuff.
Basically any builds that you used to vanquish the charr lands will work in there (dont use the siege devourer). If you can beat the hardest groups without it on Grothmar Wardowns. Those groups that have flameshielders and two healers with melee & Wardkeepers you're good to try it at least.
General Ideas :
[wiki]Frozen Soil[/wiki] - this can help but it also hurts.
- Most melee charr can res with a signet but it's wierd they dont seem to resurrect that much.
- Up to you if you think you need it, it can be done without too.
[wiki]Defile Flesh[/wiki] - you need something that can gimp how much they heal.
alternative choices: [wiki]Lingering Curse[/wiki], [wiki]Deep Wound[/wiki].
Stuff that can help you:
+ Hexes play a big part on Charr tactics, some removal wont hurt.
+ Ebon battle standards for either damage or defenses.
- Consumables : Armor of Salvation, Celerity, Grail & DP removal. The whole set.
* You might need these. Not saying that it can't be done without these but hey they help alot.
+ The higher your Ebon rank is the better , more bonus armor vs charr.
+ Dont rely on Dazed alone to do the trick, [wiki]Charr Mender[/wiki]'s remove it quickly.
+ They're vulnerable to Mark of Pain + Ebon Assassin trick since they like to group hug.
- Charr Warden (Boss) : Can hit for 300+ with a bow on 60AL.
* They can one-shot people with DP (even with -15% with a crazy damage spike).
* Dont mess with them if not needed. You can skip both Wardens on LVL1.
+ Mesmer that can shutdown caster(monk/mender) while you take them down can be very usefull.
Here's my builds that i used to vanquish Grothmar Wardowns & Dalada Uplands without using the Siege Devourer. Maybe these provide some guidance for Menagerie too but since these are for that particular zone only, these might not really work for that dungeon without reworking something out. I've been there with these builds but since we were wiped by the first group so i called it a failure but we were able to continue (only with Consumables).
- N/Ritualist healer: OAhkQIGZILmD2WaO5GmasxZVVAA
* Wailing Weapon for interrupting attackers. (Warmonger's is a good replacement, if not better).
* Protective Was Kaolai - can prevent some smaller AoE damage spikes.
* So far, i've found that secondary healer is really helpfull incase of a bad pull / Ooze adds.
- SS necro/monk: OANDY5xfK5RgkI1BqvS1jAA
* Rigor Mortis to prevent blocking, single target weaken etc. (vs Charr Wardkeepers)
* Uses defile flesh & some enchant removal.
* Shielding hands & Prot Spirit.
* Can be refined to suit your needs: Aegis, Prot Sprit, enfeebling blood. But keep Rigor Mortis.
- MM "Jagged Bones" / Monk: OANEQTxW+5UFOqLV0gioeEQEAA
* Aegis & Prot Spirit.
* Dark Bond.
* Basic meat buffer. Could be something else too if you dont want an MM.
* Well of the Profane can be quite usefull.
- My paragon build: OQCkUem0JjqUooF2IGQ4EmHm7m8G
* Uses "There's nothing to fear!" - provides defense & hex removal.
* Holy Spear - i did have an idea for that, to blow up spirits that Charr Avengers use.
* For pure damage spiking take: [wiki]Spear of Lightning[/wiki] & [wiki]Cruel Spear[/wiki].
Now before you go, i'd practice at Grothmar Wardowns because the charr group layout is similar to what you face in Menagerie. It comes down to killing the right ones first, anyone who can resurrect or the healer (for some situations)..
edit: added new stuff.
tmakinen
I would advice against doing Rragar's with H+H unless you're very experienced at running with them - just one other real player will make it much more enjoyable when you have 6 heroes to configure. Minions are not particularly effective since fleshreavers tear through them like wet paper, they fail to bodyblock shadowstepping charrs, and the only source of reinforcements in the final fight will be your own team, and considering that the dynamic duo in their batcave spells an instadeath to any squishy who's not hiding behind a big rock there won't be a lack of minion material but that is not as happy a circumstance as one might think 
I consider dual para almost a must, if one of them is a real player all the better. A reliable source of daze is necessary as well, considering fleshreaver rits and Rragar himself. If you have trouble staying alive during the final fight, consider bringing several copies of Vengeance. You'll get infinite lives (no DP) and energy, 25% damage bonus and your minion master behind that rock can animate an endless stream of minions (that's an unconventional idea that has been tested to work well against some nasty end bosses).
If you have a decent vanguard rank take some PvE skills with you. The standards are good, and the assassin summon is a pretty nifty decoy. That's another good reason to have several real players in the team as everybody can bring 1 or 2 vanguard skills that benefit the entire party.
Edit: darn, Jaceb beat me to it again
I consider dual para almost a must, if one of them is a real player all the better. A reliable source of daze is necessary as well, considering fleshreaver rits and Rragar himself. If you have trouble staying alive during the final fight, consider bringing several copies of Vengeance. You'll get infinite lives (no DP) and energy, 25% damage bonus and your minion master behind that rock can animate an endless stream of minions (that's an unconventional idea that has been tested to work well against some nasty end bosses).
If you have a decent vanguard rank take some PvE skills with you. The standards are good, and the assassin summon is a pretty nifty decoy. That's another good reason to have several real players in the team as everybody can bring 1 or 2 vanguard skills that benefit the entire party.
Edit: darn, Jaceb beat me to it again
tekDragon
I agree with the above posts.
But I'll add that if you really want to do it HnH. Sab Necros with frozen soil backup does work if you're willing to bring consumables.
If you want to complete an HM DM book there's no getting around it. Also if you're going for the master of the north title, you're going to have to tackle some nasty dungeons HnH as well as vanquish or at lest vanquish some of the Charr lands. There's no getting away from both.
But I'll add that if you really want to do it HnH. Sab Necros with frozen soil backup does work if you're willing to bring consumables.
If you want to complete an HM DM book there's no getting around it. Also if you're going for the master of the north title, you're going to have to tackle some nasty dungeons HnH as well as vanquish or at lest vanquish some of the Charr lands. There's no getting away from both.
bifter
I did this dungeon H/H, using 3 necs. It was my last dungeon in my book, so I crafted a bunch of consumables "just in case". To my shame, I actually used some too - an armour and grail on each of the three floors, and one powerstone (late on floor 2 IIRC). It went very smoothly though, and I'm pretty sure I could have done it without the consumables (apart, maybe, from the one powerstone). I ran as a bsurge ele with technobabble and pain inverter, and I didn't bother with frozen soil. I've never had to use it against Charr personally (summit are a different matter).
The dungeon actually ended up "not as bad" as I feared it would be. The very first group is one of the toughest, but if you want to play things cheesy, you can flag your team in safety near the entrance, and lure that group round towards the corridor that leads to the area map and let them kill you. They will stay wherever you have been whacked, so you can manually instruct a hero to rebirth you out, and completely bypass them.
Most of the rest of the Charr and Ooze groups are totally fine if you're used to HM. Just make sure you know the order to target mobs, spread yourself out with flags and it will be fine. The final battle is similarly insanely easy - just flag half an aggro bubble behind the rock, aggro rragar / hidesplitter, let them run into range of your team, and kill them with pain inverter / non LoS spells. Easiest boss battle in the game for me - soft OR hard mode.
The tough mobs are the fleshreavers and mixed charr / fleshreaver groups. I had decent success by aggro-locking them (ie aggro and run back as far as you can pull them - flagging hench so they don't stop to cast or anything - pick the mobs off one by one at the limit of their aggro range just as they start to try to run back to spawn position). This is a little slow and annoying, but works well. You absolute must prioritise fleshreaver harrowers as targets, and try to spread out against them if at all possible.
After the nec bosses on level 3 you can avoid every single enemy until Rragar - there is a route to just run past them all.
The dungeon actually ended up "not as bad" as I feared it would be. The very first group is one of the toughest, but if you want to play things cheesy, you can flag your team in safety near the entrance, and lure that group round towards the corridor that leads to the area map and let them kill you. They will stay wherever you have been whacked, so you can manually instruct a hero to rebirth you out, and completely bypass them.
Most of the rest of the Charr and Ooze groups are totally fine if you're used to HM. Just make sure you know the order to target mobs, spread yourself out with flags and it will be fine. The final battle is similarly insanely easy - just flag half an aggro bubble behind the rock, aggro rragar / hidesplitter, let them run into range of your team, and kill them with pain inverter / non LoS spells. Easiest boss battle in the game for me - soft OR hard mode.
The tough mobs are the fleshreavers and mixed charr / fleshreaver groups. I had decent success by aggro-locking them (ie aggro and run back as far as you can pull them - flagging hench so they don't stop to cast or anything - pick the mobs off one by one at the limit of their aggro range just as they start to try to run back to spawn position). This is a little slow and annoying, but works well. You absolute must prioritise fleshreaver harrowers as targets, and try to spread out against them if at all possible.
After the nec bosses on level 3 you can avoid every single enemy until Rragar - there is a route to just run past them all.
Longasc
If you are a Necromancer yourself, you can run something like that:
1. SS Necro with Barbs, MoP, Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste, SS ofc...
2. Splinter/Barrage Ranger Hero with Pet *
3. Splinter/Barrage Ranger Hero with Pet
4. MM Necro with Rotting Flesh
5. Herta - Wards
6. Zho - rather unreliable BHA, but useful
7. Mhenlo
8. Khim
If one should get Frozen Soil (I did not need it, if things work out you do not need it actually), I would give it to the MM.
* For future runs I plan to use a Volley/Splinter Hero with BHA without pet and replace Zho with... someone else.
1. SS Necro with Barbs, MoP, Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste, SS ofc...
2. Splinter/Barrage Ranger Hero with Pet *
3. Splinter/Barrage Ranger Hero with Pet
4. MM Necro with Rotting Flesh
5. Herta - Wards
6. Zho - rather unreliable BHA, but useful
7. Mhenlo
8. Khim
If one should get Frozen Soil (I did not need it, if things work out you do not need it actually), I would give it to the MM.
* For future runs I plan to use a Volley/Splinter Hero with BHA without pet and replace Zho with... someone else.
tekDragon
You're planning future runs though that HM dungeon?
That's insanity!
That's insanity!