Make Degeneration stack. (HEXES)

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

If this is too gamebreaking in PvP (or complicated or whatever) then how about in PvE only.


No im not talking about echoing mending.


Seeing as theres a degen and regen cap of 10, my suggestion is to make certain hexes stack.

it would make degen builds far more viable and give e-degen builds a much needed buff.

of course the -/+ 10 pip rate would not be changed.

I dont think it would make much of a difference to current HP degen builds except for adding a little more target acquisition or utility spells.

E-degen wise it would give them a much needed boost.

Conditions (bleed,burn etc) would not be affected, just hexes.

Logically "pure" HP/Energy regen spells should stack as well but...would end up too imbalanced with the way skills currently are.

So:

- Spells like [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] or [skill]Healing Breeze[/skill] would NOT stack.

- Spells that do both like [skill]Ether Lord[/skill] or [skill]Life Transfer[/skill] would stack.

A limit to how many hexes of the same name you can put on a single target might be needed for this to work (3 or so i'm guessing)

A quick glance to the concerned skills cool down times seems to indicate little or no changes in that front, casting costs remain the same.

Update:

Ok the main issues that keeps on coming back are:

1. Multiple echoing and spamming of high cost degen hexes like
.

2. Spamming of low cost hexes to cover high value hexes.

For (1) I would like to point out the high casting cost of the hex in question, spamming 25e spells is very feasible but really theres so much more you could be doing with that much energy, especially when you take into account that i'm not suggesting a change to max degen cap. You could have a million Nightmares on your toon, it still would only mean a max of -10 degen.

For (2) the solution is simple: Make hex removal skills remove all the hexes with the same name on target toon.

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
Logically "pure" HP/Energy regen spells should stack as well but...would end up too imbalanced with the way skills currently are.
And you think having degen stuff stack won't be imbalanced? If I get crap like ether lord stacked on me 3 times, I'm going to kill your kitten.

Alex the Great

Alex the Great

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

America.....got a problem with that?

[Lite]

W/

/notsigned
there's no problem, as no build should ever be just for degening people to death with no other purpose.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

Why should there be an exception for degen? No other type of skill stacks. Would you like to stack two Prot. Spirits so that you receive 1% damage?

If you want to bump up regen and degen builds, I would think that moving the +/- 10 to 15 or 20 for BOTH regen and degen would be a more elegant change.

I can't extrapolate the implications for empowering degen/regen, but I don't see them as a problem right now.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
And you think having degen stuff stack won't be imbalanced? If I get crap like ether lord stacked on me 3 times, I'm going to kill your kitten.
/agree
ill provide the stew, you provide the kitten

newbie_of_doom

newbie_of_doom

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

WTFPRIVACYDUDE

Endangered Feces [DoDo]

W/Mo

I don't see why you want energy regen and healing breeze (care?) to be combined to a certain maxium.

Also why would hexes stack while enchantments cannot anymore (when they do it is overpowered:O)

Nadasee

Nadasee

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Degen is allready powerfull as it is, and this makes it Overpowerd.
Cast a few degen skills and you will be up to the -10 in notime.

If this would be inplanted then the next thing would be to stack Healing Breeze and other regen skills! Impossible...

/Not signed

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
And you think having degen stuff stack won't be imbalanced? If I get crap like ether lord stacked on me 3 times, I'm going to kill your kitten.
lets take the Ether Lord example:

It has a cooldown of 20 seconds. For someone to have 3 of those stacked they you either have had to be the target of a coordinated attack by several opponents or have come up against an echo build based on E-degen.

The the first case is just a hex equivalent of spike and thats fine. Counters exist, protection exist, hex removal is plentiful.

In the second case its a dedicated E-denial build, making blue bars go down instead of red bars go down should have been a viable kill in Guild wars since day one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great
/notsigned
there's no problem, as no build should ever be just for degening people to death with no other purpose.
? the purpose of a build is to do what you want it to do.

like i said the 10 pip cap remains so in reality there is no change to the rate at which one degens a victim anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arsie
Why should there be an exception for degen? No other type of skill stacks. Would you like to stack two Prot. Spirits so that you receive 1% damage?
not talking about enchantments. So no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsie
If you want to bump up regen and degen builds, I would think that moving the +/- 10 to 15 or 20 for BOTH regen and degen would be a more elegant change.
I would have suggested that but PVE wise it doesn't work (higher levels), conditions would be affected and thats bad, whats more it still leaves E-degen builds in the dust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsie
I can't extrapolate the implications for empowering degen/regen, but I don't see them as a problem right now.
the problem is that they suck badly. look at the blood line, terrible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

I don't see why you want energy regen and healing breeze (care?) to be combined to a certain maxium.

Also why would hexes stack while enchantments cannot anymore (when they do it is overpowered:O)
explained.

not talking about enchantments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadasee
Degen is allready powerfull as it is, and this makes it Overpowerd.
Cast a few degen skills and you will be up to the -10 in notime.

If this would be inplanted then the next thing would be to stack Healing Breeze and other regen skills! Impossible...

/Not signed
Sure its easy to give -10 pips to someone, very rarely does it kill. its not that effective.
Like i said im not pushing for a raise in the 10 pip cap, FAR too many things depend on this mechanic and PvE would become a nightmare.


not talking about enchantments.

rohara

rohara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Rt/

no...just no XD hexes are annoying enough as it is, and -10 energy degen would be incredibly overpowered.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

The thing with degen and regen it's that there are much more skills that deal degen and degenerative conditions than ones that give regeneration.

Hexes and nchantmentes are THE SAME. One offensive, the others defensive. But they follow the same patron, just like direct damage and direct healing, they are opposed versions of the same thing.
They even have similar icons.

If you plan to let hexes stack with themselves, you'll have to allow enchantments to to the same.

But it's not like that. You are supposed to have only one effect at the same time on you. A condition replaces the same condition, a shout replaces the same shout, and hex replaces the same hex... etc.

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

/ not signed

If you mean same skills can stack ouch...

I would have fun running a [skill]Conjure nightmare[/skill] x 2 on people in RA (Fast recharge for a powerful spell) it would null any regenerative healing they have. And I could spam it on many.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

/not signed. The regen/degen feature is pretty great as it is.

NamelessBeauty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI

Mo/

I will murder your family if this idea approved.

/100x notsign

Skye Marin

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

The only thing it would do it encourage duplicate use of degeneration hexes that are the most efficient at what they do. It's not a terrible consequence, but there are better things Anet could be doing with their time.

bk359

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Conscrpits of Ascalon

E/Me

Why? If you watch Hex stack builds on observor in HA or GvG they are already extremely powerful if run correctly. Can you imagine someone casting Migraine or SS on you and then covering it with 10 copies of parasitic bond or something. Wouldn't it be supar fun to have someone arcane echo ether lord and put two copies of it on your monkz?

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

/unsigned

Life Siphon would allow some new tanking to be done by Necros. Yes, Necros. Cast Life Siphon on multiple targets and get mas regen. Works great. Your idea would allow them to stack multiple copies of it on multiple targets which kills them faster and makes them even harder to kill. You would definitely see an influx of Arcane Echo+Echo+long recharge degen hexes. Over powered, and unnecesary.

Amy Awien

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

Or [wiki]Insidious Parasite[/wiki] ...
Overdone, unbalancing ...

/notsigned

X89

X89

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Vancouver, WA

[iBoT]

Mo/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
Sure its easy to give -10 pips to someone, very rarely does it kill. its not that effective.
Degen isn't supposed to kill, degen is there for pressure. In its current state degen is balanced, placing this mechanic in the game would completely kill what little is left of any decent play/metagame.

/notsigned

Lady Raenef

Lady Raenef

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

Oregon, USA.

Zero Mercy [zm]

W/

There isn't even enough regen to save me from all the damn degen. Hell no.

/notsigned

Artorius.Maximus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Rising Rebellion

E/

/notsigned

Would be very dangerous with multiple Life Transfers on someone, especially if the max +/- was changed to 15 or 20. That change would make mystic regen too powerful as well, with 3 enchants at level 8 earth prayers I already have +9.

Sleeper Service

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

Ok the main issues that keeps on coming back are:

1. Multiple echoing and spamming of high cost degen hexes like [skill]conjure nightmare[/skill].

2. Spamming of low cost hexes to cover high value hexes.

For (1) I would like to point out the high casting cost of the hex in question, spamming 25e spells is very feasible but really theres so much more you could be doing with that much energy, especially when you take into account that i'm not suggesting a change to max degen cap. You could have a million Nightmares on your toon, it still would only mean a max of -10 degen.

For (2) the solution is simple: Make hex removal skills remove all the hexes with the same name on target toon.

Various:

Insidious Parasite.

Thats not a degen hex. Not affected by the changes i'm suggesting.

"Tanking Necro echoing Life siphon".

I did state that there would be no change to regen cap, +10 HP pips is all you would be getting anyways.
And i can tell you from experience that doing that does not even remotely work.

"regen insufficient to counter degen".

No change to the 10 pip cap, if you are countering degen with regen then the end result is the same as now.

MagmaRed

MagmaRed

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2007

Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]

R/

Soul Barbs + Recurring Insecurity + Parasitic Bond + Parasitic Bond + Parasitic Bond + Parasitic Bond + Parasitic Bond + Para.......

I see major issues, even if the degen is left at a +/- 10 cap. Giving someone a -10 degen from Parasitic Bond and no other skill should not happen. This changes more than just hex stacking. It changes the way skills function. This is major balance breaking.

Melody Cross

Melody Cross

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Alliance of Anguish [aOa]

Mo/

MagmaRed beat me to it.

What you are proposing is not a buff; its asking Anet to create a game imbalance.

hex removals are not plentiful. Compared to the number of AoE hexes, spammable covers, and lockdown hexes that exist in this game, they are few and far between. To ask Anet to turn any degen hex into a copiable cover hex looks like you want to try a specific build that does not work within the games rules.

While I applaud ingenuity, this is not the right way to go about it. There are plenty of ways to max out degen in this game already without reapplying the same single hex to the same target at the same time. The coverhex capability of degen builds would spiral out of control if this was done as you ask, making hex spells more powerful than conditions in terms of spread rate.

To put it another way; how powerful would dazed be if you could re-apply poison every time you hit someone with apply poison on your bar? Every monk would have to run RC just to keep their teams protected from such a threat. Likewise, every monk would have to run Divert just to prevent a single illusion mesmer form loading their status bar with a single hex to protect Migraine.

If you want a buff to degen hexes, ask for uptime increase. Ask for more degen per hex. maybe even ask that the degen cap be expanded higher. But asking that they stack? imba.

/no sign this one

GGs

yum

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

W/E

I dun want to see more hex craps in TA.
/notsign

newbie_of_doom

newbie_of_doom

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

WTFPRIVACYDUDE

Endangered Feces [DoDo]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

I don't see why you want energy regen and healing breeze (care?) to be combined to a certain maxium.

Also why would hexes stack while enchantments cannot anymore (when they do it is overpowered:O)



explained.

not talking about enchantments.
Why would hexes stack and enchantments don't, and 'when they do it is overpowered' also referers to hexes stacking....