Is cookie cutter really the 'only' viable option?

The closest thing to a standard template for a war that I could see, and its still variable would be...

3 High Damage skills
1 Condition skill/knockdown
1 IAS
1 Speed Buff
1 Self Heal/secondary proff skill
1 Secondary Proffession skill/resurect signet.

In general any build that meets that template will work, assuming youve got the attributes at correct levels for all skills.

As far as Attributes go there seams to be 2 acceptable spreads as far as I can tell.

1: 15 points in your weapon mastery and 13 in your shield attribute
2: 14 in weapon 11 in shield attribute and 10 in your secondary proffession attribute.

These are assuming 1 Major rune on helmet with +1 attribute and a minor rune on other piece of armor.


Unless your running something specialized like a scythe war or a farming build I think any build that fits this template should be concidered acceptable.

You shouldn't be running around with a major rune on.

Variants of 'cookie-cutter' builds are fine.. But.. in all honesty.. isn't it just easier to use 'cookie-cutter' builds instead of going to the effort of customizing it for different areas?

p.s. Yes, I'm too lazy ;p.

What I see the template is:

Bull's strike, attack skill, attack skill, ias, movement speed boost, optional, optional, res sig.

12+1+1 in weapon 12+1 in 2ndary.

the best "cookie-cutter" builds allow quite a bit of variation. those warrior build that are commonly run (shock axe, dragon slasher etc) are optimized for straight-up offensive power and pvp play. however, that's not always what you want.

for instance, i once had to play monk in a caster-heavy pve area with some key bosses to shut down, and the group i was playing with did not have a mesmer. so i took the hybrid monk template:

rof, goh, dismiss, remove hex/holy veil, prot spirit/spirit bond

and added these skills to it:

rof, goh, dismiss, remove hex/holy veil, prot spirit/spirit bond, power block {e}, power return, power drain

my attribute spread was ugly as hell, but it worked pretty well. essentially, i was doing both monk and mesmer duty (and did it quite well, if i say so myself ). people got healed and protected by the hybrid monk template, and important casters got the shit interrupted out of them.

that i believe, should demonstrate just how powerful and versatile these templates can be.

I would've went Magebane and DShot Monks with bows are pr0

Fixed that for you.

Never go higher than 14 weapon mastery - major runes are bad and at r14, Axe sunder/crits hit for 58, so they skip just below proccing SB/PS.

best non-ensign post ive seen in a long time... good job

HAMSTORM!...No wait, put criplslash+conjure in with firestorm...cripstorm! I'm a genius. The only thing you need is synergy between skills and you'll do fine. Cookie Cutting is never the "only' viable option.

I'm assuming that you're talking PvP, and not PvE, correct?

When you're facing mobs in PvE, the above axe build is inferior to the OP's original template (that doesn't contain any of those skills, other than dismember)?

That's the problem with "cookie cutter" builds in PvE...because you know what you're going to face ahead of time, it's likely that any cookie cutter build will likely require massive customization (and therefore making it no longer cookie cutter) to be the most efficient build for a specific PvE area.

a little bit of both actually. in pvp, i'll most likely spec for maximum damage. in pve, i have a little bit more leeway to play around if i wish.

the point of these templates is that you can pretty much build any build you want from them. each profession's got at least one such template. although it's possible to build a character from scratch without these templates, using the templates will at least give you a character with all the bases covered.

Really?

Heres the bar: Flare + Res Sig.

Go make effective please.

Skill only goes so far. If you're a caster thats supposed to do a certain task but your bar doesn't have the e-management to sustain your performance, then its not your fault, its the build's fault. Some builds are just inherently bad and no amount of skill in the world is gonna turn that Flare + Res sig bar any more effective then it is (if at all).

Confused? why wouldnt you? clarification plz?!

Sure, use Flare to pull with then run like hell as your party kills the poor fools that run into the ambush, then you return sitting just out of agro to rush in and res if anyone goes down

As to the other comment about using a Major Rune, I've 0 problems with it and even run a superior rune from time to time, but then I have good monks with me that know how to use protection and healing

It depends on whether your build's goal is to have the highest DPS possible or to kill things.

I can't think of a situation where you'd have to "massively" customize your build. At best you change out a couple of your utility slots, or you switch to another template.

What you gain from using a major rune isn't worth -35 health.

What you gain from using a major rune isn't worth -35 health.[/QUOTE]


Thanks so a minor or a Sup no middle ground? Im still not getting it.. Sorry.....

In PvE it's your choice if you want to run majors or superiors; but the gains from using majors and superiors are really small. I'd rather have the health buffer than maybe an extra +1 to my attacks.

To further clarify what savio said, how many skills that are worth having have a breakpoint at 15 points and is that breakpoint better than what's available at 14 points? Since this discussion is in the warrior forum, most warrior sword skills gain 2 damage points per rank increase. So in order to do 2 extra points of damage every 4-8 seconds you have to give up 35 life.

Now if you look at strength and tactics, there really aren't any skills I could justify having 35 less life for in order for you to use. Particularly in general PvE and in PvP.

The general rule of thumb is not to use any skill rune that's better than a minor. There are a handful of exceptions, but those are exceptions for specific reasons and you should use the runes at those times. This is further required with games like EotN and NF where enemies can do more damage and have more powerful skills.

For most purposes, don't use Sups either unless you are playing a 55 or 130 or something like that.

it doesnt matter about minors majors or superiors... as long has your character has around +600 health... thats good enough.

Although this often means no superiors, major runes are fine. I usually go deck out in all survivors, vitaes, minor e-storage and a major rune of the element i am running.

with a caster sword (non +20% enchant but with +30 health) and an offhand (shield or offhand for caster w/e) you should have around 615 health. This is pretty standard health amt for casters in PvP (changes due to wep swaps) but in PvE it should be no different. I'm sure you can get away with some radiant inscriptions but honestly i dun see any profession really needing all radiant (excluding farming builds of course and 1 hp BiPs and etc.)

Hi. This is the warrior forum.

regardless you should be decking yourself in survivor runes... i just used my ele as an example...

kthxbye

Bad example since most warriors have a minor+helm, minor strength or tactics, rune of clarity, and a sup vigor... you have one slot left for your vita rune.

as far as insignias go, yes most use predominantly survivor.

Generaly what I find is that I want my weapon attribute at either 15 or 14, sometimes to maintain 14 in that and get the proper use of secondary skills I need a major rune to achieve that.

I am sure you would all agree that dropping weapon attribute to 13 would be the wrong move. Keep in mind that were not just talking about 1 point of dmg here, by using a major rune you might be able to raise another attribute by 2-3 points depending on how you have them spread out, and that can make a large differnce.

With a major rune and perfect sword/axe/sheild I sit at 555HP, more than enough for any situation. Now if I didn't have a Superior Vigor Rune and perfect weapons/sheilds then I would certainly stick with minor runes only.

Let the fools be, it increases merchant value of survivor inscriptions. They'll never learn anyway.

While survivor is relatively weak in PvE (if you're under ~45 health, what are the chances of everything miraculasly turning around and you getting a spike heal? It's not like a death in PvE matters that much), it's quite good in PvP. In PvP, you'll want to get your health high so you're less likely to get killed by a spike.

A polite, contructive reply to my flamebait ? How dare you !

Yes, I agree in PvP survivors are a good option.

In PvE insignia's ahould allways be choosen to give you the best option at extra armour. The best option meaning : you choose insignia's based on a condition that your likelly to meet most of the time.

Still Survivor.
PvE ain't hard enough to require any super-efficient min/maxed armour, and I liek 2 pee vee pee wit mi warr

Bad example to use warriors, they aren't very flexible when it comes to optimizing builds. An above poster already mentioned that a warrior needs at least an IAS, a run buff, a good spike combo and some form of KD.

In PVE it kinda depends what you face, you won't need WY when you will face lots of degen, mtouch works wonders in condition heavy quests, but the 'core' skills are usually more or less the same.

When I say 'cookie cutter' in general I don't usually think about what's the most efficient build, but, especially in PVE, I think about what's EASY to use.
Good example is Slaver's Exile, everyone uses tankspank, while there's better options. Tankspank however is sh!t easy to play, so it might take a little longer to complete the mission, but there's a larger chance of success.

Good side effect is that it's easier to play with strangers that way, bad side effect is that many players don't have the imagination/skill to think outside the box. That can be rather frustrating for, say, peope like me who don't like the boring easy way out. I personally just want to use my warrior to PWN FACE .

ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Stupid me! I thought Skyros said superior runes, not survivor. WTF was wrong with me?

Superior runes are fine in PvE. I use them in PvE and AB on all profs and if you have good monks you dont need the 70 extra health

It's happened to me enough times to make me want a higher health pool.

The only superior runes I carry on me are Sup. Vigor, Sup. Weapon, and dare I say it, there is a sup. absorption on my chest piece... [yah yeah, berate me why don't you]

But, nobody said I couldn't switch to a minor axe mastery helmet when my hp dropped or I suffered DP...

Ah belts, just enough room to carry ALL my extra weapons, shields, and a good hp helmet...

Sup. weapon all the way. [and then change helmets when hp becomes a concern]

I'd have all survivor armor runes if they weren't so expensive. I'm wearing all brawler runes from an old sentry setup. [getting into an adrenal stance takes longer than just hitting space, doh]

About my op post [and to get back on skill build topic]...

I was trying to mention some customization.

From the outset of the majority of this forum, it seems to me that even if you followed 5-6 of the 'cookie cutter' skills, your utility skills seem to HAVE to come from the warrior line...

I mean really, how many threads mention strong stat investment into your secondaries?

Nobody has yet to prove to me that 16 weapon, 9 shield req. 10 secondary will do me 300% or better gains in hurting my enemies...

I mention some skills like Mark of Fury and Well of Ruin and everyone still says casters are better off with warrior buffs. [which eludes me since all the PuGs I join involve casters with their own self interests in mind]

Note, the mending / healing hands build mentioned with 6 cookie cutter skills does NOT buy my trust since those skills do NOT hurt the enemy.

I always mention utility skills that add damage over a strong period of time. Well of Ruin, Mark of Fury, hell, even Plague Touch [if your monk sucks] are all designed to hurt my foes...

I also discovered something nasty. [216 dmg spike in less than 2 seconds] Use Swift Chop and Defile Defenses (10 curses) on a blocker and instantly hack off 200+ health from full.] *100 from DW, 116 from Swift Chop + DF*

I'm counting it when the axe hits [or rather is blocked]. PvE obviously. You can do it again for another 116 dmg if they continue blocking with a quick recycle time. No, I don't have energy problems due to smart Zealous Axe usage.

1-2 utility skills that increase damage in some way should be allowed on mostly cookie cutter templates. I've been under the impression that it's not feasible unless those extra skills are warrior only...

Does anyone put points into their secondary to boost damage these days?

This is probably the best option in PvE if you're willing to do it. However, many of us are lazy. If you can only have one, the minor is probably the better choice. If you can intelligently switch the two, you'll get a free 10% or so damage boost, which is nice.

I see plenty of builds advocating more traditional stuff like plague touch, mending touch, shock, conjures, rending touch, etc. In fact, most builds seem to have a couple skills from other lines. This is slightly diminished with GWEN and the PvE skills which are often better for sticking in those utility slots, but it's still around.

Mark of fury, well of ruin, and defile defenses are better to run on a support caster thanks to their cast times, energy usage, and spamminess (actually, mark of fury is better if you change it to dark fury and load up on warriors + paras). As a warrior, time you spend targeting and casting those curses takes away from time you could be beating the hell out of things.

Withering aura might be interesting on a linebacker build, and there are certainly niche uses for rigor mortis. Gaze of contempt might come in handy, and with the cost reductions you could probably run blood rit on a warrior with limited success.

It is nasty, but you should try out having a corrupt enchantment necro with defile defenses throwing hexes at you while a shock axe guy turns things into pulp. It's really, really painful, and would work just as well in PvE. Granted if you're in a PuG with bad casters, you have to consider if you need that stuff on your bar more than you need face-beating potential. It's not optimal, but I can understand the situation.

The general consensus is that it's easier to have casters do all the buffing and physicals do all the killing. Stuff like conjures really only appears on warriors because it's self-cast only.

Anyway, as long as you have the general idea that warriors = kill stuff in the face (which you do) you're probably in the top 10% of all PvE warriors, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

My final question...

I asked before, but it was at the end of a very long post that probably got overlooked.

Do people put points into their secondaries anymore? [as in more than 6 points? they actually 'try' to get more out of their extra skill]

I know of the tiny point setup for Plague Touch [which ROX] and Conjure Element but has anyone found their method for putting ya know, lots of points?

With only 8 skills, most of which being my axe skills, I've never deterred from the 'old-school' build of max weapon, 9 shield req., 10 secondary class (if needed, if it's non-linked, like Gaze of Contempt, the rest go to strength/tactics)

I run 4-5 weapon axe skills, IAS, secondary utility, Res Sig. I see no reason to go past 3 attributes.

So, do people try to make their secondary skill hit harder? [my choice would be to run 10 points in elemental magic if I were a Conjure Axe user to say I do more damage than any other conjure axe user]

I do every so often, but it appears I'm a renegade of the GWG community.

At the risk of having this comment being quoted out of context, I'm going to have to agree with Yukito Kunisaki about the usefulness of using your secondary profession skills. Here's why, 99% of the time I'm either playing with pugs or hero/henches. That said, I know most of the "elite" posters on this forum do NOT play with pugs and are able to count on their friends, guildies or, whatever to always use the correct builds and tactics. Of course if you only play with this select group of friends you'll be able to use that perfect, cookie cutter skill bar.

Every now and then, some of you elite players should go to THK or another Mission often difficult to play with pugs. Join a group, don't give instructions and see again what it's like. I promise, after you see again what it's like to play with a go go go! aggroing warrior and a MM/heal party monk, you'll see exactly how far you perfect skill bar and elite tactics will take you.

Yea, that's pretty much exactly right.

Which is exactly why I don't PUG anymore. The ineptitude of their own player skill is generally far worse than the horrible skill bars they use.

I've said this enough it ought to be stickyed !

Its the players skill that maters not his skills!