I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what's the deal with Mesmer elites. Many of them are sound concepts, but they just aren't effective enough in what they do.
Many of the Illusion elites are worthless, the interrupt elites are horrible (Power Leech and Flux not PD/ PBlock), and most are outdone by non-elite versions. Power Leak punks power leech and power flux in energy denial, E-surge beats it, and does dmg too. Skills like Shared Burden and Crippling Anguish aren't that useful. Inspiration has pretty horrible elites, considering most of them are E-management which can be beat by p-drain.
I'm not mad about anything, since overall the Mesmer is still one of the better professions for pvp. It seems like they put a lot of thought into this profession as a whole since it's pretty unique, yet they don't meet their potential.
Crappy Elites
moush
Kattar
Most professions have some crappy elites. Mesmers as a whole are ignored, except for what gets used in PvP, so the skills that aren't used all the time ([skill]Shatter Storm[/skill] comes to mind, I mean wtf?) don't get thought about, and, therefore, nothing gets done about their uselessness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moush
Quote:
yet they don't meet their potential.
I find that to be true as well. Seems like a lot of people do that in PvP - get stuck using one build and never change tactics til they get hit with the nerf bat. I won't go into how people play mes in PvE. Lol.
Shuuda
What's the deal with most Warrior elites?
What's the deal with most Monk elites?
What's the deal with most Assassin elites?
What's the deal with most Dervish elites?
What's the deal with most Paragon elites?
What's the deal with most Ranger elites?
What's the deal with most Necromancer elites?
What's the deal with most Ritualist elites?
What's the deal with most Elementalist elites?
See where I'm going with this? Mesmers have quite a few good elites compared to a lot of other proffessions.
What's the deal with most Monk elites?
What's the deal with most Assassin elites?
What's the deal with most Dervish elites?
What's the deal with most Paragon elites?
What's the deal with most Ranger elites?
What's the deal with most Necromancer elites?
What's the deal with most Ritualist elites?
What's the deal with most Elementalist elites?
See where I'm going with this? Mesmers have quite a few good elites compared to a lot of other proffessions.
Pick Me
Isn't E-surge an elite?
Depending on your bar, some if not many of the elites are quite useful.
E-denial in PvE has never really been useful, so don't think that using skills for that in PvE will help.
Many unused elites for any class are really for one specific purpose, otherwise they are utterly useless. Shared Burden as you have mentioned can be useful in slowing a mob down while you run away.
As Shuuda pointed out, each profession suffers from what you have mentioned, some skills are out shined by non-elites, but they still have a place.
Depending on your bar, some if not many of the elites are quite useful.
E-denial in PvE has never really been useful, so don't think that using skills for that in PvE will help.
Many unused elites for any class are really for one specific purpose, otherwise they are utterly useless. Shared Burden as you have mentioned can be useful in slowing a mob down while you run away.
As Shuuda pointed out, each profession suffers from what you have mentioned, some skills are out shined by non-elites, but they still have a place.
Skycluster
I think some of these skills are capable of being better. They just need to be buffed a bit. I think it might be more useful if share burden added -1 to maybe -2 degen? But that would make crippling anguish look awful. So maybe buff crippling anguish to -3 to -6 degen? I personally love skills with multiple options. Shared burden is awful compared to deep freeze.
The power leech and power flux, if they add another effect I would defenetely use them. If they were 5 energy would you use em? I always carry power spike because of its lower cost. I love power leech but what if it damaged the person for every energy drained for like or even healed the mesmer for every energy drained. I really have no idea how to power flux would be buff >.>.
The power leech and power flux, if they add another effect I would defenetely use them. If they were 5 energy would you use em? I always carry power spike because of its lower cost. I love power leech but what if it damaged the person for every energy drained for like or even healed the mesmer for every energy drained. I really have no idea how to power flux would be buff >.>.
moush
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
See where I'm going with this? Mesmers have quite a few good elites compared to a lot of other proffessions. Yes, every class has shitty elites, but this is the mesmer hangout. Many skills are horrible concepts and would never be useful, but many mesmer skills just a tad boost in their stats (energy drained, degen amount etc.) and they would be perfectly viable. It's just that certain elites get made Meta, and no one tries anything else until it's nerfed. Buffs should come instead of nerfs. Probably too late for ideals though.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsumi
Most professions have some crappy elites. Mesmers as a whole are ignored, except for what gets used in PvP, so the skills that aren't used all the time ([skill]Shatter Storm[/skill] comes to mind, I mean wtf?) don't get thought about, and, therefore, nothing gets done about their uselessness.
Mesmer elites aren't very powerful in PvE because of the way the game has become: large, big hitting mobs with near infinite energy.
P.S. Shatterstorm is an awesome skill. It's probably the single most powerful enchant strip for spike builds.
Mesmer elites aren't very powerful in PvE because of the way the game has become: large, big hitting mobs with near infinite energy.
P.S. Shatterstorm is an awesome skill. It's probably the single most powerful enchant strip for spike builds.
Darkside
All the classes have some bad elites... get used to it.
blue.rellik
Be thankful you're not a ritualist, you have a couple awesome elites and the rest are either 'aight' or 'crap'
horseradish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skycluster
Shared burden is awful compared to deep freeze.
Shared Burden is godly in AB with Mantra of Persistence.
On-Topic: Mesmers have some good elites. Most are pretty much useless in PvE though
On-Topic: Mesmers have some good elites. Most are pretty much useless in PvE though
Lishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
Whats the deal you ask?They pack good utility
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Blood is power,Spiteful Spirit,Jagged Bones,Flesh Golem,Offering of blood,Reaper's Mark,Virulence,Grenth's Balance....
Whats the deal you ask?They pack good utility
Jagged Bones = nerfed into lameness.
Flesh Golem = meh
Grenth's Balance = meh.
You could have atleast put:
Corrupt enchantment.
Aura of the Lich
Whats the deal you ask?They pack good utility
Jagged Bones = nerfed into lameness.Flesh Golem = meh
Grenth's Balance = meh.
You could have atleast put:
Corrupt enchantment.
Aura of the Lich
draxynnic
Okay, I'll play (Note that this is largely subjective, although I have included the options I know to be popular even if I don't use them myself):
Warrior: Eviscerate, Triple Chop, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Barrage, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Martyr
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Unsteady Ground, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Temple Strike, Assassin's Promise, Shadow Prison (PvP), Shadow Form, Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Quickening, Attuned Was Songkai, Ritual Lord
Paragon: Anthem of Fury, Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration, Cautery Signet
Dervish: Ebon Dust Aura, Avatar of Dwayna, Avatar of Lyssa, Avatar of Melandru
Interestingly, the Mesmer actually comes out with the bigger list. But that's actually something of a bad thing - while other classes mostly have a few good elites that they rely on most of the time to go with the mediocre ones, the Mesmer doesn't really have that.
I think the difference is that most of the other professions have elites that you can build an entire build off. Most of those elites, you can announce yourself as a {elite skill here} {profession here}, and people will know what you are. And with many of the exceptions, the elites are backing up some other skill, so you just need to announce what the other skill you're using is.
Mesmers... don't really have that. Echo and Signet of Illusions do at first glance, but are most commonly used with non-Mesmer skills. Fevered Dreams... is mostly relying on another profession to deliver worthwhile hexes in a timely manner, although there is the Phantom Pain/Shatter (or Drain) Delusions combo. Energy denial has reportedly been nerfed into the ground even for PvP, leaving E-Surge as basically a substandard if armour-ignoring nuke. Which leaves Mantra of Recovery - which presumes that you have a skillbar that can actually handle the increased casting rate, and even if you do it's going to be down - and hence encouraging you to stop casting - an estimated 25% of the time.
Since the OP has referenced PvP, the 'independant' skills aren't actually too bad - I'm saying this without much PvP experience at all, but it's a lot harder to say that Broad Head Arrow makes Mesmer interrupts redundant in PvP, and my understanding is that enchantment and hex removal is more important in PvP and thus elites that provide those are that much more valuable. However, when push comes to shove there's no Mesmer elite that I can think of that has as impressive an effect on a build as, say, Dragon Slash does on a Warrior.
Warrior: Eviscerate, Triple Chop, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Barrage, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Martyr
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Unsteady Ground, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Temple Strike, Assassin's Promise, Shadow Prison (PvP), Shadow Form, Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Quickening, Attuned Was Songkai, Ritual Lord
Paragon: Anthem of Fury, Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration, Cautery Signet
Dervish: Ebon Dust Aura, Avatar of Dwayna, Avatar of Lyssa, Avatar of Melandru
Interestingly, the Mesmer actually comes out with the bigger list. But that's actually something of a bad thing - while other classes mostly have a few good elites that they rely on most of the time to go with the mediocre ones, the Mesmer doesn't really have that.
I think the difference is that most of the other professions have elites that you can build an entire build off. Most of those elites, you can announce yourself as a {elite skill here} {profession here}, and people will know what you are. And with many of the exceptions, the elites are backing up some other skill, so you just need to announce what the other skill you're using is.
Mesmers... don't really have that. Echo and Signet of Illusions do at first glance, but are most commonly used with non-Mesmer skills. Fevered Dreams... is mostly relying on another profession to deliver worthwhile hexes in a timely manner, although there is the Phantom Pain/Shatter (or Drain) Delusions combo. Energy denial has reportedly been nerfed into the ground even for PvP, leaving E-Surge as basically a substandard if armour-ignoring nuke. Which leaves Mantra of Recovery - which presumes that you have a skillbar that can actually handle the increased casting rate, and even if you do it's going to be down - and hence encouraging you to stop casting - an estimated 25% of the time.
Since the OP has referenced PvP, the 'independant' skills aren't actually too bad - I'm saying this without much PvP experience at all, but it's a lot harder to say that Broad Head Arrow makes Mesmer interrupts redundant in PvP, and my understanding is that enchantment and hex removal is more important in PvP and thus elites that provide those are that much more valuable. However, when push comes to shove there's no Mesmer elite that I can think of that has as impressive an effect on a build as, say, Dragon Slash does on a Warrior.
Dodo The Extinct
Look at Ritualists and you'll realize that you should'nt be complaining
horseradish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct
Look at Ritualists and you'll realize that you should'nt be complaining
lol true.
but rits don't "need" an elite skill as a good amount of their nonelite skills are better than most elites period.
Mesmers don't necessarily need an elite skill either.
but rits don't "need" an elite skill as a good amount of their nonelite skills are better than most elites period.
Mesmers don't necessarily need an elite skill either.
draxynnic
Or maybe supporters of both professions should be. 
Although I must say I actually find it easier to find a good elite to serve as the capstone for a Ritualist build than a Mesmer one nowadays.
Just because a problem is shared doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
Although I must say I actually find it easier to find a good elite to serve as the capstone for a Ritualist build than a Mesmer one nowadays.Just because a problem is shared doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Warrior: Eviscerate, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash, Earth Shaker, Derv Hammer.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Burning Arrow, Crippling Shot, Magebane Shot, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Shield of Defection, Shield of Regeneration, Healers Boon
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance, Corrupt Enchantment
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm, Enchanters Conumdrum.
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Shadow Prison (PvP), Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Remedy.
Paragon: Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Lyssa You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate.
Clarissa F
Shuuda, I laughed hard at you ditching Ebon Dust Aura and AoD and replacing them with BALTHAZAR! Lol, I'd even take Grenthie in its new form over Balth.
I think that the regular skills of the mesmer line are actually good enough to make the elites seem watered down. Unlike other classes, the best elites aren't used to build your bar around, but to amplify the effectiveness of other skills.
I think that the regular skills of the mesmer line are actually good enough to make the elites seem watered down. Unlike other classes, the best elites aren't used to build your bar around, but to amplify the effectiveness of other skills.
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarissa F
Shuuda, I laughed hard at you ditching Ebon Dust Aura and AoD and replacing them with BALTHAZAR! Lol, I'd even take Grenthie in its new form over Balth.
If you have a few GvG matches lately and read the Avatar of Balthazar thread, you will discover that it is more viable that Dwayna or Lyssa in the right builds, the major thing that major Balthazar (and all non melandru Avatars) Bad was the lack of deep wound, now that has been fixed, AoB has it's good uses.
Now tell me, what GOOD GvG has ever used EDA, when you can just use Blinding Surge?
Now tell me, what GOOD GvG has ever used EDA, when you can just use Blinding Surge?
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
Warrior: Eviscerate, Crippling Slash, Dragon Slash.
Ranger: Rampage As One, Trapper's Focus, Burning Arrow, Crippling Shot, Magebane Shot, Broad Head Arrow
Monk: Word of Healing, Zealous Benediction, Shield of Judgement, Restore Condition, Shield of Defection, Shield of Regeneration, Healers Boon
Necromancer: Blood Is Power, Offering of Blood, Order of the Vampire, Spoil Victor, Spiteful Spirit, Animate Flesh Golem, Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, Grenth's Balance, Corrupt Enchantment
Mesmer:Ummm...
Energy Surge, Hex Eater Vortex, Power Block, Psychic Distraction, Mantra Of Recovery, Fevered Dreams, Signet Of Illusions, Echo, Expel Hexes, Shatter Storm, Enchanters Conumdrum.
Elementalist: Blinding Surge, Obsidian Flesh, Elemental Attunement, Mind Blast, Savannah Heat, Searing Flames, Glyph of Energy, Glyph of Renewal
Assassin: Moebius Strike, Shadow Prison (PvP), Aura of Displacement
Ritualist: Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Remedy.
Paragon: Defensive Anthem, Focussed Anger, Song of Restoration.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Lyssa
You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate. Warriors: No love for hammers?
Rangers: If you include AoB because it's used in GvG then you should include Smoke Trap
Monks: Guess so
Necromancer: More or less.
Paragon: No love for the ranged Eviscerate?
C2K
At least Devastating Hammer should be on the warrior list, as its the most common KD elite for hammers.
jimmyboveto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate.
If you put eviscerate on there, there shouldn't be any reason why cruel spear shouldn't be there for the paras. After all, its a ranged eviscerate.
Also, why no hammer elites? Don't say all of them just suck...
Also, why no hammer elites? Don't say all of them just suck...
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Warriors: No love for hammers?
Rangers: If you include AoB because it's used in GvG then you should include Smoke Trap
Monks: Guess so
Necromancer: More or less.
Paragon: No love for the ranged Eviscerate? 1. OMIGOSH, your so right, silly me, I wub hammers and forgot to add there elites, well that's all fixed now.
2. Meh at smoke trap.
3. Paragons, that elite is ok, but they have better.
Rangers: If you include AoB because it's used in GvG then you should include Smoke Trap
Monks: Guess so
Necromancer: More or less.
Paragon: No love for the ranged Eviscerate? 1. OMIGOSH, your so right, silly me, I wub hammers and forgot to add there elites, well that's all fixed now.
2. Meh at smoke trap.
3. Paragons, that elite is ok, but they have better.
Clarissa F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
If you have a few GvG matches lately and read the Avatar of Balthazar thread, you will discover that it is more viable that Dwayna or Lyssa in the right builds, the major thing that major Balthazar (and all non melandru Avatars) Bad was the lack of deep wound, now that has been fixed, AoB has it's good uses.
Now tell me, what GOOD GvG has ever used EDA, when you can just use Blinding Surge? Was looking at the PvE side(not being GvG myopic), as I've noticed the "spike" that LAx was successful with using AoB. Energy and health are more valuable in PvE, as is hex removal, especially for HM. There AoB only shows value if you are a runner or are fighting undead, and even then there are skills in the dervish line that allow you to free your elite for a better skill.
For EDA, all you need is an earth scythe and you are passing blindness around for 29 seconds using your regular skills, without having to dump anything into a secondary for B-Surge. Nice for PvE. Nice saving that energy cast for other skills instead of spamming B-Surge. Of course, the damage from B-Surge is nice, but it's still meh dumping the points into air magic.
Now tell me, what GOOD GvG has ever used EDA, when you can just use Blinding Surge? Was looking at the PvE side(not being GvG myopic), as I've noticed the "spike" that LAx was successful with using AoB. Energy and health are more valuable in PvE, as is hex removal, especially for HM. There AoB only shows value if you are a runner or are fighting undead, and even then there are skills in the dervish line that allow you to free your elite for a better skill.
For EDA, all you need is an earth scythe and you are passing blindness around for 29 seconds using your regular skills, without having to dump anything into a secondary for B-Surge. Nice for PvE. Nice saving that energy cast for other skills instead of spamming B-Surge. Of course, the damage from B-Surge is nice, but it's still meh dumping the points into air magic.
Shuuda
When I said B-surge, I meant using it on an ele for a source of Blind.
draxynnic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarissa F
Quote: Originally Posted by Shuuda
You missed off quite a few elites, and added some crap ones, so I'll edit this list to be a tad more accurate.
Triple Chop and Barrage are both in cookie-cutter builds for PvE (the latter infamously so), so that implies they've got something going for them, even if you do consider them to be overrated.
Unsteady Ground can be quite effective for shutting down a mob of melee enemies in PvE.
Assassin's Promise and Shadow Form, ironically enough, seem to be more commonly used by other primary professions than actual Assassins, but there are some scary builds using each. Temple Strike may not be as good as some other forms of shutdown, but it is effective for keeping the monk quiet long enough to kill it, at least in PvE.
Weapon of Remedy really depends on how worried you are about conditions, although it nearly went on my list as well. Ritlord clearly isn't as good as it used to be, but can still be useful in combination with skills like Recuperation when you can't spare the points for Weapon of Quickening... and see above for comments on that. Was Songkai I've never actually used myself, although I've seen others that apparently like it.
I've found Anthem of Fury to be quite effective when used on a Warrior's hero sidekick. Cautery Signet, like Martyr, is an effective way of dealing with multiple conditions, but on second thoughts, it probably is overshadowed in the current meta.
Dervish... I copped a lot of flak on the Dervish forum for even saying that AoB was viable, let alone one of the powerful skills of the Dervish - and even as I defended it myself, it isn't a skill that I actually use all that often myself. EDA, on the other hand, is a quite effective means of shutting down a number of melee enemies, at least in my experience in PvE.
Unsteady Ground can be quite effective for shutting down a mob of melee enemies in PvE.
Assassin's Promise and Shadow Form, ironically enough, seem to be more commonly used by other primary professions than actual Assassins, but there are some scary builds using each. Temple Strike may not be as good as some other forms of shutdown, but it is effective for keeping the monk quiet long enough to kill it, at least in PvE.
Weapon of Remedy really depends on how worried you are about conditions, although it nearly went on my list as well. Ritlord clearly isn't as good as it used to be, but can still be useful in combination with skills like Recuperation when you can't spare the points for Weapon of Quickening... and see above for comments on that. Was Songkai I've never actually used myself, although I've seen others that apparently like it.
I've found Anthem of Fury to be quite effective when used on a Warrior's hero sidekick. Cautery Signet, like Martyr, is an effective way of dealing with multiple conditions, but on second thoughts, it probably is overshadowed in the current meta.
Dervish... I copped a lot of flak on the Dervish forum for even saying that AoB was viable, let alone one of the powerful skills of the Dervish - and even as I defended it myself, it isn't a skill that I actually use all that often myself. EDA, on the other hand, is a quite effective means of shutting down a number of melee enemies, at least in my experience in PvE.
C2K
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Dervish... I copped a lot of flak on the Dervish forum for even saying that AoB was viable, let alone one of the powerful skills of the Dervish - and even as I defended it myself, it isn't a skill that I actually use all that often myself. AoB wasn't viable till Pious Assault became a Deep Wound skill. Pious Assault made alot of things viable, but it works best with AoB.
Before that, AoM was so much better because Dervishs could only Deep Wound with Wearying Strike, in which only AoM could really utilize efficiently.