Are the 5 gods in fact dragons of some kind? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

22 Feb 2008 at 13:08 - 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Hmmm, this thread reminded me of something. The God's Facets were Dragon shaped. Dragon's are the main enemies of GW2. There are people being able to relate the dragons to the gods (as "opposites"). Perhapes this somehow gives a hint that the gods and the dragons really are connected? Just a thought I had.

Interesting and true!

Glint is after all, a dragon prophet and placed on Tyria by the gods themselves, according to the Wiki and Lore: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glint

The first creature you place on a world, would it not be something similar to yourself? Just like Adam was created after the image of god.

Then our gods would be DRAGONS. Why do they suddenly appear in human form? This is their choice, nobody knows how they really look like. Abaddon is usually portrayed as some 6/8 eyed giant squid.

Humanity and other races would then just be animals in the eyes of the gods.
"God then noted that "It is not good that the man should be alone" (Gen. 2.18, KJV). He then brought every "beast of the field and every fowl of the air" (Gen. 2.19, KJV)"

Now we have some 5-6 "dragon-gods", that noticed that mankind spread like wildfire. A very successful animal, that started worshipping them - but not in their fearful dragon form, but in more human shape.

These 5 dragon gods are the "human gods", yet they are still ancient dragons or at least dragons or related to dragons. Glint would be one of their children or creation.

And then we have the other ancient dragons. Primordus being probably no.1 among them, given the name. :>

Now think about Balthazar and his brother Menzies:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Menzies
Menzies is the Lord of Destruction and the evil half-brother of Balthazar, he's trying to overthrow Balthazar and take control of the Fissure of Woe. The Shadow Army are his followers. There are no known depictions of Menzies.

Could Menzies not be one of the Ancient Dragons or related to them?
Grenth's arch enemy Dhuum could then be the Undead Dragon of Orr.

Beheader205

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

Karas Hur

W/Mo

22 Feb 2008 at 13:12 - 2

i forgot the name but remember the person in nightfall who takes abbadons place. she was a human and not a dragon but still became a god. would she be the only human god or become a dragon later on?

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

22 Feb 2008 at 13:14 - 3

Kormir was quite human, so being a god does not seem to be restricted to dragons.

Ancient Dragons are probably about as powerful as our known gods, so they could as well call themselves "gods" or become gods.

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

22 Feb 2008 at 14:08 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beheader205

i forgot the name but remember the person in nightfall who takes abbadons place. she was a human and not a dragon but still became a god. would she be the only human god or become a dragon later on?

Grenth is also a mortal that ascended, so he could have been something different.

The others? We don't know. Personally, my theory is that Dwayna and Melandru are the originals (Dwayna is the leader, Melandru is known to have been around at the creation of the world, and both have wings or something winglike on their statues and avatars, which could be an indication of being different from humankind in shape - whether just because of the wings or because the wings are symbolic of something else). Of course, the reason Balthazar doesn't have wings could simply be just like the Gelflings - he's a boy.

michaelhunter81

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

House Valhaad

W/D

22 Feb 2008 at 15:46 - 5

My therory on this lore is that none of them were truely gods to begin with.

The power of being a god comes from being worshiped, with out followers and worshipers there is no god, no power.

I belive that perhaps the dragons were the first creation that came from the mists.

Within time as humans and the like started to rise and populate they look toward these great beasts as deific and started to worship them, once enough worshipers arose they in all esence became gods.

Till perhaps some revolt or something happened to put them all to sleep or what ever happened.

Then later the legends of a few great heros perhaps, i.e. dwayna, melendru etc. became widspread and then they started to be worshiped as well, with them soon becomeing the "new" gods.

Once again this is just a possible idea I had behind the whole thing.

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

22 Feb 2008 at 17:52 - 6

I still think the Ancient Dragons were in fact the original gods. My speculation is that they were conquered by some beings from the Mists on the plane we now call Tyria. After that the gods who originally conquered the Dragons left this "plane" and were conquered by a new set of beings - Dwayna,Melandru,Lyssa,Balthazar,Abaddon and Dhuum. They then came to the plane and began creating Tyria as we know it today. And so begins the history of Tyria with the Ancient Dragons long forgotton.

Anyway speculation aside - the gods are linked to Dragons in general -Glint,the Facets and now Ancient Dragons, one of which has the ability to breathe life into things (something which would be often linked to a godlike being).

Azael Durge

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

MIST

N/

22 Feb 2008 at 18:53 - 7

Maybe they arent gods but powerful beings that stumbled here through the rift, sprouted a few hundred people in tyira got bored and left.

And there is that guy who learnt to use the rift, have we any more lore on it? I know that world pvp will happen there.

Eldin

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

America. How about you, commie?

Fellows of Mythgar [FOM]

R/Mo

22 Feb 2008 at 22:01 - 8

That would be a gay plot twist in GW lore if the Gods we all know were "phonies" and usurped the Dragons, unless the Dragons were unjust rulers like Grenth -> Dhuum.

Fangclaw

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Maguuma Jungle / Tarnished Coast

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 01:42 - 9

The OP's theory is the one one that makes the most sense, but there are still some gaps in it...

The fact that Kormir ascended might prove that Ascension to Godhood is not restricted to beings of the same species as the ''original'' gods.

Pyra Fade

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

sync dancing at Droks

Elite Order of Grimm [EOG]

E/A

23 Mar 2008 at 04:19 - 10

How about a greek spin on things?
So far we have all the ingredients.
The Mists would be something like Cronos. The first and the creator.
Then the Dragons, would be the titans. Spawned from Cronos and ruled the universe as tyrants.
Then the gods, (Balthazar is perhaps like Zeus?) overthrew Cronos and locked his titans away.
So the dragons are under lock and key (aka sleep with a TBA wake up call), Cronos has been reduced from his physical existence into basicly the fabric of the universe, The Mists
And the young gods rule.
So i guess were waitin for the planets to align and Grenth to unleash the dragons? or perhaps theres a fragment of abbadon left, and he's gona let em loose? lol, thats just if Anet read greek mythology while brainstorming for GW lore :P

ps: forgive me if i got sum things wrong about greek mythology, its a vague rendition.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

23 Mar 2008 at 06:35 - 11

Wow, something I posted got someone to start a thread....scary. Anyways, What I meant when I said that post is that there are really two "sets" of gods. The gods we know (Dwayna, Melandru, Etc.) and the Ancient Dragons, both of which are "gods" of something, but the human's gods and the dragons are like good and evil of whatever they are the god of. My stance on this has changed since that post o so long ago. Now, I think that the Ancient Dragons are the original gods, as Free Runner said right away, but to change from Free Runner's idea, I say that the human's gods defeated and absorbed the power of the Ancient Dragons' generals, much like how Duncan planned to absorb the Great Destroyer's power. Menzie probably absorbed a weaker general's power, which is why he is considered a demi-god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The others? We don't know. Personally, my theory is that Dwayna and Melandru are the originals (Dwayna is the leader, Melandru is known to have been around at the creation of the world, and both have wings or something winglike on their statues and avatars, which could be an indication of being different from humankind in shape - whether just because of the wings or because the wings are symbolic of something else). Of course, the reason Balthazar doesn't have wings could simply be just like the Gelflings - he's a boy.

To comment on the wings things. On the Stained Glass mural of Grenth, he does have wings, although it is hard to notice.

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

23 Mar 2008 at 18:10 - 12

I'm still not sure we or anyone in general should be so hasty to assume that the Ancient Dragons are the Gods. If you follow the Path to Revelations quest chain in the Tarnished Coast you'll notice that in the dialogue after finishing each quest Kerrsh tells you bits and pieces of what he is discovering in his research.

Read over those, if you will, and tell me you're still certain of the Gods being the Ancient Dragons or human or any creature at all. Oh and Azazel are you certain the wings aren't actually horns or his robes?

Fangclaw

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Maguuma Jungle / Tarnished Coast

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 18:31 - 13

Theres 5 of them... and Kormir is on those. Wheres the who's missing though? Judging from this, I'd say its either Melandru or Lyssa.

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

23 Mar 2008 at 18:45 - 14

My apologies, I cut out the ones that didn't contain any substantial lore information when I put that pic together. It is Lyssa.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

23 Mar 2008 at 19:38 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Oh and Azazel are you certain the wings aren't actually horns or his robes?

Very sure. I just noticed it yesterday. Seeing how there were feathers I don't think that could be horns, which were there too and much more noticeable and I don't think his robes would have feathers.

Fangclaw

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Maguuma Jungle / Tarnished Coast

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 20:01 - 16

Mind putting it up? Its probably relevant...

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

23 Mar 2008 at 20:20 - 17

I can tell you what it says word for word, but I won't. It's basically Kerrsh saying, GOGOGOGO! WE'RE ALMOST DONE!1! KILL THAT FACET, GO!

Or in other words..

"We are almost there. The answers we seek are near, yet there is more that must be done. The Facet of Illusions, a manifestation of your deity, Lyssa, has appeared within the Magus Stones. Defeat it and bring its cipher to me. Quickly now, our time draws near!"

Seraphim of Chaos

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Your Personal Savior [gsus]

W/E

23 Mar 2008 at 20:54 - 18

They spelled Dwayna wrong in your picture.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

23 Mar 2008 at 21:16 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangclaw

Mind putting it up? Its probably relevant...

I was actually going to put it up once I went back to it. I found this mural in pre, I think there is one in the Isle of the Dead guild hall, and I'm sure there are some in some dungeons here and there too. Anyways, here is the pic.

Can anyone say "Angel Of Death" idea?

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

23 Mar 2008 at 22:17 - 20

I think thats more of a background than wings.

Quote:

Read over those, if you will, and tell me you're still certain of the Gods being the Ancient Dragons or human or any creature at all

I never was certain and cant be until GW2 is released. It is simply a theory.

Fangclaw

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Maguuma Jungle / Tarnished Coast

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 22:30 - 21

Those are hard to notice at first sight...

But since grenth is not of the original 6 gods, that means hes not a dragon. And the fact he has wings kinda puts the OP's theory into jeopardy.

But it brings another question into the picture... Who, or what, is Grenth actually?

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

23 Mar 2008 at 22:43 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangclaw

But it brings another question into the picture... Who, or what, is Grenth actually?

This thread attempts to figure that out.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10259213

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

24 Mar 2008 at 19:21 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I think thats more of a background than wings.

Seeing how there are 3 background displays, I think those are suppose to be wings on Grenth. I think that was placed there to give the Angel of Death idea like I mentioned under the pic.

ALICE WInterLand

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

SINGAPORE

XMEN

Me/R

24 Mar 2008 at 20:59 - 24

GHE look more like a goat.which is..quite scary.a talking goat...i Bet.the necro are forbidden to eat Mutton.if so then It is A GOAT!!.

Yoom Omer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Israel

One Life to Live Again [Life]

E/

14 Apr 2008 at 20:50 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm still not sure we or anyone in general should be so hasty to assume that the Ancient Dragons are the Gods. If you follow the Path to Revelations quest chain in the Tarnished Coast you'll notice that in the dialogue after finishing each quest Kerrsh tells you bits and pieces of what he is discovering in his research.

Read over those, if you will, and tell me you're still certain of the Gods being the Ancient Dragons or human or any creature at all. Oh and Azazel are you certain the wings aren't actually horns or his robes?

When kerrsh speaks of the eternal alchemy it opens a gap for another theory:

Think of that, if you know that some god (or a divine entity) is real, and powerful, you worship it. We know our gods exist, we just don't know if they are gods. If the asura also know them, and know their powers, and know they are real, but still they don't worship them, that means our gods are only very powerful entities, maybe divine, but not invulnrable or a-destroyable. Also, abbadon descendance shows us that gods are not as powerful as they want us to think they are.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

14 Apr 2008 at 21:28 - 26

Wow, thanks for reopening the thread I somehow inspired!

At your comment, I believe in all ancient Mythology, such as from greek mythology, all gods are able to be cast down. In that context, being a "God" would simply mean that you are a very powerful being that does not age. Not "immortal" in the sense that you cannot be killed but "immortal" in the sense that you are hard to kill.

Just knowing the existence of a powerful being, or knowing the existence for the worship of a powerful being, does not mean that it is divine. Although, for the game, the gods are divine in the part that they are all powerful. But then what are the Nature Spirits that the Norn worship? They are, to the norn, divine, and they are eternal, and it can be argued that they are powerful, just as the Gods are.

There are several religions, and in such fantasy 'stories,' they are all/mostly real. The Gods are 'real' gods, the Nature Spirits of the Norn are real 'gods' the Titans are real 'gods' etc etc. The only thing we don't know about the religion parts, is who the "Six True Gods" are/were and what their origin is.

Yoom Omer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Israel

One Life to Live Again [Life]

E/

14 Apr 2008 at 22:09 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Wow, thanks for reopening the thread I somehow inspired!

At your comment, I believe in all ancient Mythology, such as from greek mythology, all gods are able to be cast down. In that context, being a "God" would simply mean that you are a very powerful being that does not age. Not "immortal" in the sense that you cannot be killed but "immortal" in the sense that you are hard to kill.

Just knowing the existence of a powerful being, or knowing the existence for the worship of a powerful being, does not mean that it is divine. Although, for the game, the gods are divine in the part that they are all powerful. But then what are the Nature Spirits that the Norn worship? They are, to the norn, divine, and they are eternal, and it can be argued that they are powerful, just as the Gods are.

There are several religions, and in such fantasy 'stories,' they are all/mostly real. The Gods are 'real' gods, the Nature Spirits of the Norn are real 'gods' the Titans are real 'gods' etc etc. The only thing we don't know about the religion parts, is who the "Six True Gods" are/were and what their origin is.

I looked more from the point of view of our times and religions and not from the point of view of the greek mythology. Your answer does contradict a part from my theory, but think of that: every creature that spoke of the true gods called them true gods. If you are calling a god a true god, than you probably should worship him, and not a fake god. Also, I', not so sure that the norn spirits are gods... More like divine entities that direct the norn. They don't have power, at least not corporeal... If we got to this point, we should define what is a "god". If a god is a powerful entity, than wouldn't glint be a god? and if it has to be divine, than why the titans and mursaat are gods? Maybe only a true god is divine?

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

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14 Apr 2008 at 23:12 - 28

About the Norn's Nature Spirits, I never called them gods, just things that are worshiped like they were gods. They do have powers, hence the existance of the three Blessings.

In the definition of a god, that is too hard to settle with, as everyone has a different opinion on what makes god(s) a god. If one thinks about it, anything that has power can be considered gods. Pharaohs were 'gods' but yet they died just as any other human. Some would say that a god cannot be killed at all, but that goes against all polytheistic religions, because if something cannot be killed, and therefore it exists forever, then it had to be created by something of equal, or greater power. Which is where most religions get their flaw, and the 'theory' of existence from nothing.

So, in reality, anything that has power over something else can be called a god by another, humans are gods to insects and other animals, the sun can be our god, etc etc. So really Glint can be considered a god *which is why the Brotherhood of the Dragon is considered an outcast from the other Deldrimor dwarves*. The Mursaat and Titans are gods to some, but false ones.

So, really, the human's gods may not even be real gods, just beings that are much more powerful then anything else that is known *not including the dragons* that also have their own realms and govern the dead. But then again, it is having their own realms and governing the dead in the Rift that makes them to be considered 'True Gods.'

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

14 Apr 2008 at 23:50 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

But then again, it is having their own realms and governing the dead in the Rift that makes them to be considered 'True Gods.'

They gave magic and shaped the plane of Tyria - two things which i would consider to be done by a True God. The other "Fake Gods" have never actually done anything like that - i mean sure they have put on nice displays but in the end thats all they were.

The gods actually emerged,were able to create worlds,change forms,create races and magic and leave Tyria behind. The fact is that the 5 Gods appear to actually have understanding and power in the Mists. That in itself makes them more than a simple group masquerading as gods.

I believe the truth behind the gods is the Mists themselves. Once we are able to figure out the Mists we will figure out the gods.

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

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N/

15 Apr 2008 at 00:18 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

The gods actually emerged,were able to create worlds,change forms,create races and magic and leave Tyria behind. The fact is that the 5 Gods appear to actually have understanding and power in the Mists. That in itself makes them more than a simple group masquerading as gods.

Here is a question for you. Other then belief, how do we know that the 'True Gods' created the world of Tyria? The Lore on the history of the world is all based off of Charr and Human knowledge, unless I am mistaken, and if so, post a link to where I am mistaken. The Charr hated the Gods and the Forgotten, thats all they mention of them since they were created. Humans were put on the earth by the gods, thats the only fact that they give, the rest is all assumptions.

There might be a part where the forgotten say that they were created by the gods, I cannot recall if they do or not, but I do not believe they ever say that the gods actually created the world, and there are no mentions of the giants, or the Ancient Dragons, which are supposedly older then the forgotten, so how do we know that the gods created the dragons? maybe the dragons created the gods? THAT is the mystery we need to figure out

. Only creatures to give evidence to creating other creatures are the Gods and the Dragons.

Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? or should I say, the Dragons or the Gods?

Courage!

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2008

Australia

Mo/

15 Apr 2008 at 07:04 - 31

ok grenth is some phycho awesome undead dude the rest are mortal

Free Runner

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

GW2G

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

15 Apr 2008 at 08:50 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Here is a question for you. Other then belief, how do we know that the 'True Gods' created the world of Tyria? The Lore on the history of the world is all based off of Charr and Human knowledge, unless I am mistaken, and if so, post a link to where I am mistaken. The Charr hated the Gods and the Forgotten, thats all they mention of them since they were created. Humans were put on the earth by the gods, thats the only fact that they give, the rest is all assumptions.

There might be a part where the forgotten say that they were created by the gods, I cannot recall if they do or not, but I do not believe they ever say that the gods actually created the world, and there are no mentions of the giants, or the Ancient Dragons, which are supposedly older then the forgotten, so how do we know that the gods created the dragons? maybe the dragons created the gods? THAT is the mystery we need to figure out

. Only creatures to give evidence to creating other creatures are the Gods and the Dragons.

Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? or should I say, the Dragons or the Gods?

The gods did not "create Tyria" exactly. It was there from the beginning (When the beginning was is another question) because as we can see the Dragons and GL slept and walked around before the 5 gods we know entered Tyria so unless they had created it sometime thousands of years before, Tyria could not have been created from the point the gods stepped out.

They simply shaped it as i said. I never actually said they created Tyria in that paragraph. However i did say that they created worlds and the worlds i was talking about are the Fissure of Woe and The Underworld.

Now we dont have evidence that they were the ones who created them - but supposeing they did those 2 worlds may not be on the same scale as the world of Tyria but they are still worlds.

The Forgotton were summoned from the Mists by the gods. None of them ever say if they were originally created by the gods someplace else (lets face it they are not that talkative in Prophecies and in Nightfall all they want to talk about is Abaddon)

Now we will not be able to solve the mystery of the origins of the Dragons and Gods at this current time because there is not enough information on the Dragons. They could of created the gods,they could be previous gods,they could of been intended to be the real gods but got replaced or they could have nothing to do with the gods at all. We wont know until we get solid information about the Gods,Dragons and Mists.

Quote:

Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg? or should I say, the Dragons or the Gods?

Until we know the time of creation for the gods...its the Dragons.