If you could change one thing

Shiro not killing the heroes in Vizuna square, thus the strange and unknown Emissaries wouldn't need to appear at all. Those Emissaries didn't lock shiro up sufficiently either.

Heroes picking up Staff of Orr & body of Rurik, rather than leaving it in the volcano. They fought hard to get that Staff.

Why is that important people die and left as dead in Tyria, when the monks have resurrect/rebirth etc?

Er, Enovys, not Emissaries, one of them is called Emissary, but they are Envoys.

The act of resurrection in the world of Tyria in terms of Lore is... questionable. It's hard to figure out where to stop at game mechanics and start with lore in some things, like resurrection and who really goes through the storyline.

err ,ok my misstake

As it is in many games, where people die over and over in. I know I,m being a bit silly in my desire for characters being resurrected in story.

Heroes and henchmen talk about resurrections too

"Remember all those times we were dying and I was the only one left standing but I used my signet on Alesia instead of you only to have her die while attempting to restore Lina's life? Yeah, good times. Good times."
Reyna, Archer Henchman, Droknar's Forge (explorable):

There is an anime, BTW where the heroes are having a fit because the clergy refused to resurrect a ally of theirs "because he was to old". I enjoyed that anime just for that ^^

I think in the cases of Rurik and Saidra, the explanation is that the body had to be abandoned while escaping from enemy forces (the Stone Summit and Mursaat respectively). When Rurik appeared again, his body may have been too decomposed for a resurrection spell to work.

In Togo's case, it could be explained as the ritual Shiro used to return himself to life made Togo unressurectable.

I don't recall any actual scripted deaths of allies in Nightfall. EOTN has Gadd, which is a little harder to explain, since he died in a manner the PCs would consider normal (big magical explosion...) and the body was available. Unless the explosion was such that he didn't need to be cremated to make those ashes that were poured into the waterfall...

There is one, Morgahn's priest friend friend (forgot her name), along with the nameless priests that Varesh slaughters right before Morgahn joins us.

The death of Morgahn's priest friend is also unexplained as why they didn't resurrect her, as Morgahn was right there (and I for one would think he would have ordered one of his men to resurrect her, or resurrect her himself via Signet of Return).

My take on resurrection in a lore sense was that there's a time-limit to resurrection.

Also the thought of "souls attachment to their life" crossed my mind a few times.

Then there's also cases that it's an unnatural thing to do. In wars, fine. But everything outside of it is blasphemy to Tyrians :P
Dragging ol' Shirou into this thread:


The priest is called Kehanni by the way.

That just reminded me of a change I would make...Let Norgu be a more serious character and die rather than Kehanni. One: Kehanni is attractive and a polite lady. Two: She helps guide us in Vabbi. Three: Norgu comes out of practically nowhere to join us.

Goren does too, but there's not a really good character that could take his place.

While I agree that Kehanni should have lived (although her death allowed us to get Morgahn's help ) I fear for your sanity now that you said Kehanni is attractive. I fear for the sanity of all those who find pixels or drawings attractive. And Goren doesn't really come out of no where if you do Margrid's side instead of Jurah's. Norgu still comes out of no where to say "hey they need your help, but save me first!" Goren is "der hey pretty lady, I'll help you get to the princes." Storyline wise, I prefer Goren over Norgu. hero usefulness, I prefer any of the 24 others.

Ah, yes. I had the nagging feeling I'd forgotten something - at least that one happens when the PCs aren't nearby. Maybe Morgahn and co didn't have resurrection skills loaded (how many Kournans do?) or maybe the Margonites did something to Kehanni to make her unresurrectable?

And for the record, I've run 3-mesmer hero/hench groups.

I would like to see what would have happened if the Vizier failed to destroy Orr and just got consumed by scepters magic. Would the charr rule everything except Kryta or would Orr survive their invasion? Would the flameseeker prophecies be fulfilled in this case? I guess players would be running after white mantle and never got ascended nor met glint, but who knows..

While that would be interesting to see, I must point out - being a lore freak - the Vizier didn't use the scepter until 2 years after the Cataclysm. The Cataclysm was caused by the Forbidden Scroll. The Flameseeker Prophecies would probably not happen, as we wouldn't head to the Crystal Desert - at least not under the same reasoning.

No doubt that if Khillbron never used the forbidden scroll, Orr would have been overtaken by the Charr, due to losing so much to the Guild Wars. Knowing how the Charr despise Ascalon, most of the forces that went to Orr would probably return and take over Ascalon. The Heroes would be killed in Ascalon, never making it to the Shiverpeaks.

The White Mantle would probably be unaffected until the Charr had full control of the east, at which point their confidence may of lead them to Kryta (which would probably fare better than Ascalon and Orr due to the White Mantle and Mursaat). Also the Stone Summit would crush the Deldrimor Dwarves.

Due to all that, Cantha would not get the aid of the Tyrians, leading to Shiros plague perhaps becoming successful. The Sunspears in turn would never get aid from Tyria or Cantha, possibly leading to their ultimate demise and the arrival of Nightfall. Then a year later, The Great Destroyer would arrive, but due to the lack of Heroes or Deldrimor Dwarves, it would survive for its purpose. Primordus would be awakened, which would probably lead to the other Ancient Dragons waking up. So the world would have Abaddon, his Demons and the Ancient Dragons. That would of course mean the end of the world.

Funny how one thing could affect the fate of the world

You'd have to wonder what would happen if Nightfall did succeed then.
Ok, Tyria has fallen into night. You have an army of demons who cannot reproduce and all of humanity living in fear. What to do? Enslave them? Play poker with Joko? Decapitating statues of the God's wont help much, since the Five are on long-term vacation. Though Balthazar pays a little visit somewhere in the upcoming 250 years.

Then Primordus wakes up with his buddies for global destruction. Would Abaddon become a "savior"? Well, it'd be the lesser of two evils in that case. Abaddon doesn't exactly want to destroy the world. Just break free out of Torment and get payback on what the Five did to him. Heck, maybe the people would start thinking "Hey, Abaddon's a pretty cool guy. Eh kills dragons and doesn't afraid of anything". So Abaddon becomes the one true God for modern day Tyria, sitting on a throne of dragon corpses or what the like. Swarmed with priestesses of Lyssa and eating yummy grapes, slowly turning Tyria into his personal army to prepare for the "Final Battle" against the Five, who are probably floating in The Mists or dwelling in another world they created.

Oh yea. Menzies and Dhuum. Eh, Menzies just wants power and Dhuum loves torture. They'll eventually find another hobby.

Man, this would make a great fanfic :P

[/end creative outburst]

There's a video, somewhere, to explain how flawed this perception is. Of course, it's a matter of opinion, and it would probably be more appropriate for a PM, but..

Anyway, on the topic at hand..In short, the Cataclysm was actually for the betterment of mankind.

Yeah i forgot Menzies and Dhuum in my consequence post. No doubt they would find something to keep them occupied in all the killing, soul devouring and destruction. Perhaps they would actually step out of the shadows for once.

We could just say that Kehanni is a much more interesting character than Norgu. Kehanni is a priestess who is sometimes granted visions by Lyssa, and Norgu is a actor who not only takes the credit for stopping Nightfall, but was probably stuffing his face when Kehanni died.

Proph: use backfire, dazed, or an interrupt the chart searing casters.

Fax: make the luxons and kurzicks relevant to shiro via epic battle.

NF: not save chahbek island so istan gets pwned by corsairs.

Ok, well firstly I understand the Kormir hate and all, but it's better to have her as a god than someone like Goren or something. "GRRR! SMASH!". I don't think she should have been the goddess of truth though, because she always says "As a Sunspear, you never fight alone!" and then she goes and places ONE sunspear at each rez shrine. YEAH WELL DONE KORMIR HUURRRR.

As for the upcoming Emperor in GW2... The Kurzicks and Luxons are all appart of Cantha, they're just being stupid by waging war on one another and generally not helping anything. You would think that the army of afflicted might have been enough to make them say "Ok, temp truce while we save THE WHOLE STUPID CONTINENT". But noooooo, we had to go marching through their territories MAKING them be reasonable. All the new emperor did was take back what was his. They were stuck in a never ending war for little to no reason, kudos to the new emperor.


Now then, my change...

I'd find some kind of time travel technology, and take all my 10 characters (1 of each prof) back to about a week before the searing. Then I'd wait... and STEAL THE CAULDRON! No Searing, Ascalon is saved, Orr is saved, and Kryta would do fine all the same.

After that, I would tell rurik to gather up all his men north of the wall for some damn training. Level 3 Ascalon Guards, level 5 Academy Monk, are you kidding me? The monks carry crappy swords and shields too. I highly doubt they're caster weapons, too. They're probably just 3-4 damage tribal blades and r5 strength shields with -2 damage while in a stance. Also, They have Flaming Scepter Mages, why don't they use them? Even though they only know flare, they're level 7, which would make them more powerful than most of the Ascalon Army judging on damage alone. And as for Ascalonian rangers, their only skill is Dual Shot. Well done! (Not)

So, my monk would go to serenity temple in pre (Perma pre now that we have the cauldron, srsly) and he would teach the monks there what a staff is. My ranger would teach all the Ascalon army rangers a few things like preparations and a healing/defencive skill or two, like throw dirt (How hard could that be to learn?). My warrior would teach the Ascalon Guards shield bash and give them healing signet or something. Also my elementalist would show them mages a thing or two about fire and then THEY can show the CHARR a thing or two about fire. Also They should include Mesmers and Necromancers in their army, even if it's only a little bit. A MM could work wonders with the amount of corpses they create daily.

After that I would power level them all to at least level 10, that way the king could be just as strong on the defence with half as many men and stfu, and rurik could then push further and further north now that his men are stronger than the charr and can wtfpwn them out of new Ascalon (Which would be a merge of Ascalon and everything above it).

Then Ascalon would be the strongest Kingdom on Tyria and would build another great northern wall, but this time all around their lands to keep stupid people out and stuff. I could then go and explore Orr because it never got blown up, and my characters would go save the rest of the world before bad crap happens because they have knowledge of future events and stuff.

THE END.

(Note; It is just one change. I only changed that my characters went back in time.)

How do you know? Khilbron was evil, he would have blown it up anyways. x)

I don't think I ever posted in this thread about what I would change... yet I visit it whenever there's a new post... huh.

NOOOO!! That evil bastard!

But really, the only reason they turned to such magic was before they were seeking a weapon to stop the charr which were heading to Orr after the wall was breached. The wall never got breached, thus there were no charr headed for Orr, aaaaaand that means they didn't search for a powerful magic to defend their home with. I just hope he wouldn't find some other excuse to go get that scroll thing. (WAS he evil? I don't know much on the lore of him)


What would you change?

Though you would face the troubling fact that Orr is still at war with Ascalon due to the lack of a Searing ending the Guild Wars

DAMMIT! XD That's more damaging to my plan than Vizier Khilbron is!


Well, I'd just have to bring peace somehow. Like, Ascalon would be all the more powerful with much more land, not to mention it has the Caulron of Cataclysm at it's command. Though I would prefer it destroyed because I really don't think places should be seared and all... Though it would prolly be cool to uve over the sea and stuff. Corsair naval fleet? Forget about it!

EDIT: I think peace would have to root from Ascalon having a bigger stick.

i'd change too all the things u ppl said about rurik, kormir, togo, mursaat etc.. but

i'd like it if:

every monster in gw was ghost! (ect0s for mee xP)
we could meet grenth in UW or balth in FoW..
varesh and togo were our heroes
norgu was less gay (hate that man!)

and about the secrret margonite outpost, someone mentioned before:
LOL there are no secrets in GW..! xD

Proven in the Realm of Torment that he was corrupted by Terrik, and purposely read the scrolls - with the guards following him trying to stop him, but they found out too late. The Prophecies Manual is a lie. So is the cake.

See, I'm not sure how much was him being manipulated and how much was him being him. I know that to an extent he is evil and all, but I'm not sure how much pushing was done by Abaddon's demon...

Also, I've been doing some reading up on Guildwiki about the lore surrounding him and saw that the Door of Komalie was only being kept shut by sacrificing the chosen on the bloodstone. Obviously that's not so great, and we stopped it. In the end it was eventually powered by killing the Lich himself on the bloodstone (I assume that's enough to keep it shut for a looooong time given his power)

But if I went back in time and changed stuff, then he may not become the lich, which got me wondering then if he couldn't become the lich then he can't be killed on the bloodstone, and then the Door of Komalie wont stay shut, so the chosen will need to be sacrificed...

But then I was wondering about the Scepter of Orr... You told me it was one of two powerful sister staffs. The Staff of the Mists is based more on health, and the Scepter of Orr is all about energy. So perhaps the Scepter of Orr could be used as some form of power source to keep the Door of Komalie shut for good and the titans safely sealed away. I think too much about these things. I love it.

Rurik gets hit in the head by one of those giant crystals and dies instantly.

It would honestly make the early missions more enjoyable.

"You are no longer my prince, gtfo!"

I'd make it so gwen never existed.
I hate the fact a girl in pre-searing that played no part then, plays a major role in the game in gwen.

stupid plot twists make for stupid plot.

I actually quite liked it because it made the game have more character depth.

Thats both Anet and the communities fault for making her so popular that her fate had to be explained

Wouldn't change per se, but it'd be interesting to see how the world would've come out if Abaddon defeated The Five in his first battle before the Exodus.

At minimum, he wouldn't have a millennium of hatred towards them, where he wants to have vengeance. So Nightfall and stuff wouldn't be there.

No Lich Lord, no Betrayal of Shiro.
The Bloodstones wouldn't have been made by The Five. Not sure if Abaddon would've listened to Doric's plea's.
(So we'd have True Magic hax, hell yeah!)

Which leads me to something else..
What "was" keeping the Door of Komalie shut before the Bloodstones?
The Realm of Torment was always a place for the big bad guys, even before Abaddon got jailed in there.

That's a good question about the Door of Komalie. I'm not sure...

Are we even sure the Door of Komalie existed prior to Abaddon's fall? We know the Realm of Torment did, as it had to for him to be cast into it, but there's nothing really said about the Ring of Fire Islands Chain.

Mmm, I've a thought, a hypothesis, a theory forming amongst my synapses now..

They dropped the Bloodstones into the volcano of the Ring of Fire Islands Chain, but..That doesn't mean the islands were always these burnt, ashen rocks we see today. After all, we see greenery in one spot..And burnt trees..The thoughts they are forming, the thoughts they are oiling my theoretical gears.

Leon beat me to the first question - how do we know that it existed before even 200 years ago. It looks like the material is Mursaat-made, so they most likely made it.

But, something Leon missed, how do we know the Realm of Torment was always called the Realm of Torment? There is the belief that it was Abaddon's realm before his imprisonment, afterall.

If my geometrical memory serves me right, it is possible for a volcano to form without being constantly active - that is, giving enough time for plants to grow. But (adds the GW universe to it) when the exist is blocked (say by the Bloodstones), the pressure rises and eventually you get an eruption.

Now, that would explain how an ordinary volcano can send giant masses of rocks across Tyria. Added pressure means more push.

Lets now add in the magical qualities of the Bloodstones, one is Destruction, and if the Ring of Fire were once green, but now the volcano is constantly active, it makes me think that the Destruction Bloodstone is causing the land to be constantly destroyed (by the lava). Making it possible that the Ring of Fire bloodstone we kill Khilbron on is in fact the Destruction Bloodstone. As, were it to be removed, it may cause the lava and volcano to not be so active.

Afterall, after the Bloodstone is activated by Khilbron's death, we have an eruption of the volcano. Which would lead to destruction (again). Sounds logical to me. Although I probably worded it in a way that people will be confused.

I comprehend precisely what you're getting at. However, my thoughts were going in a different direction.

if there was one thing that i could change, it would have to be the emote from ha.

Dagnar should have been WAY harder to kill

Impossible odds just pisses people off

Killing abbadon was a joke.

The impression I actually had is that, while the manual blurs together the Charr invasion and the Searing, that presearing was actually in a time when the Guild Wars had actually (just) finished. One of the reasons why Adelburn is liked over the old royal family, for instance, is that he got Ascalon out of the Guild Wars.

On the other hand, at the time of presearing the Charr were banging up against the Wall, suggesting that everything north of the Wall had likely already fallen. My suspicion is that the Guild Wars were ended when the Charr started invading Ascalon, but that during presearing the invasion had been stalled at the Wall until the actual Searing broke it down. The whole invasion then gets called the Searing, even if the actual cataclysm happened halfway through instead of at the start.

My theory on the Realm of Torment is that at least part of it was Abaddon's domain before he fell - Kormir does, after all, seem to be trying to claim it rather than simply turning it back into a prison.

As for the Bloodstone in Abaddon's Mouth - I'd always assumed it was the keystone. *shrugs* Can't remember right now if I had a basis for this belief.

The guards mention in pre searing that on the very day of the Searing, Ascalons Chosen are participating in a guild war with Orr somewere. I also remember it being said somewere that when the Charr attacked Ascalon in full force, guilds from Orr and Kryta quickly retreated back to their respective kingdoms to try and protect them, indicating they were fighting in the guild wars or were heading to fight a guild war.

So it would seem the guild wars were still happening on the very day of Ascalons fall.

The thought for that came from that only one death was needed to bring the barrier back up. Thus implying it to be the strongest Bloodstone. But then Bloodstone Caves came out and we know that sealing the door is not a natural aspect of the Bloodstone, as the third one (seemingly at least) does not. I personally think that it was that a Lich's soul was used to power the bloodstone and seal the door that caused it to require only one (still wonder how Khilbron made it into the Realm of Torment if souls are stuck within the Ether Seals.... And sad we didn't fight Hablion's ghost in Abaddon's Mouth when removing the seals. That would have been an interesting turn of events ).

Amen brother, kill all humans ;3

Hrrmn...

Is it possible that the death of the Lich didn't actually seal the Door, just that his death lead to his soul being sucked into the Realm of Torment... but that even when unsealed, the Door can only be passed from the Torment side if there was an entity on the side of the mortal world holding it open?

So, essentially, the ether seals were less of a barrier than a lock on the existing ones - essentially the very last line of defense preventing the door from being opened on this side. When the Lich's soul passed through, however, the Door swung shut behind him. This leaves the Door of Komalie closed, but unlocked - an individual with equivalent power to Khilbron with the Sceptre of Orr may have been able to trivially reopen the Door until it was cleaned out from the other side in the DoA quests... if it weren't for the volcano erupting.

This might also serve to explain why Khilbron kept returning to the Bloodstone voluntarily even though that was the only place he could be killed - because if he stayed off it for long enough, the Door might swing closed again of its own accord.

This theory does contradict Rurik's information, but it's possible that Rurik had managed to learn that killing the Lich on the Bloodstone would close the Door while being mistaken as to why.

Alternatively, it's possible that the Lich's death did refuel the soul batteries as originally advertised - but the eruption that followed destroyed them (sucking the Lich into Torment) and concluded with the Door being sealed by geology rather than magic.