For PvE of course:
Assassin's Promise {E}
Divine Spirit
Divine Boon
Release Enchantments
Reversal of Fortune
Aegis
Deny Hexes
Dismiss Condition
Divine Favor: 12 + 1 + 1
Protection Prayers: 9 + 1
Deadly Arts: 9
@9 Deadly Arts you get a 14 energy return off of Assassin's Promise if you can kill an enemy in 11 seconds (should be more than enough time). This would lead to perma Divine Spirit and perma Aegis on one monk. Prior to an enemy dying you can use Release Enchantments (if needed) for a 99 point party heal, assuming Divine Spirit, Aegis, and Divine Boon are all up.
Biggest issue obviously is if the hexed target isn't dying. I haven't actually tried this yet so just looking for some input on the idea.
Assassin's Promise Boon Prot - Maybe?
Racthoh
Keekles
I guess it would work on paper. I'll go give it a try a little later today if nobody else does first.
Cherng Butter
Lots of hoops to jump through. And there isn't much room for stuff like SoA, Seed, and Prot Spirit, is there? Seems like a hassle to set everything back up every 10 seconds or so as well.
I'd be more comfortable running just a standard OoB or Melandru's Resilience Boon prot, but then again I don't have a PvE monk :P
I'd be more comfortable running just a standard OoB or Melandru's Resilience Boon prot, but then again I don't have a PvE monk :P
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Cherng Butter
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As it did tonight.
Seems like a hassle to set everything back up every 10 seconds or so as well.
I can't speak for other monks but I've found when I have been monking recently I wand more than I cast. This would actually force me to pay attention. 
Bowstring Badass
Racthoh you are crazy. And yet original (this game has lost it since [WM] left).
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Seems like it would work but the only problem is compared to other things out there it might not work as well. Quote: You could always drop Release Enchantments. I don't see many monks nowadays using a party heal anyway.
You haven't seen my pve monk.
Arkantos
Quite original. As long as you kill your enemy within 11 seconds (which shouldn't be too hard), you have a perma aegis, a 1e/good heal rof/dismiss/deny, and an emergency party heal/open slot. Seems effective.
Dr Strangelove
Eh, I'd say it has the same problem that the elementalist AP nukers have.
Assassin's promise is strongest against trash mobs and weakest in harder fights, meaning it's always going to fail exactly when you need it most. It's better to try and plan for the times when the feces hits the oscillatory ventilation device, in my opinion.
Arkantos
As long as you're in a good party, you should be able to kill a target every 11 seconds. For parties less capable, assassin's promise is a wasted slot.
Yichi
If you have the right team build, I could see this being successful. If you're taking it and trying it in a PuG situation, then it will more than likely fail.
My Lipgloss is Cool
Even if you can't kill them in 11 seconds, you can easily time it on a target that's almost dead
Skyros
(for when you do try this)
is it a hassle to cycle through the enemies to find one about to die while at the same time keeping your party protted up. I'm sure it s not super hard to prot for PvE just wonderin if its worth it to bring.
yesitsrob
Sounds like it could be fun, if not as effective in certain situations as a more er.. normal build. It would probably fail in pugs if they fail to kill. Think it could be entertaining to play though.
Coloneh
AP on a monk forces you to cycle through your own red bars and the enemy team searching for the target thats about to drop. its just a whole bunch of extra work for almost no results. use glyph of renewal. you dont really have any need for a perma aegis on one monk. if you have 2 monks you can chain it, if you dont you probably have someone maintaining SY, and then... who cares about aegis?
Cowboy Nastyman
the main problem i could see is mobs with hex removal would likely pull it as soon as its cast
Celestial_Kitsune
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
For PvE of course:
Assassin's Promise {E} Divine Spirit Divine Boon Release Enchantments Reversal of Fortune Aegis Deny Hexes Dismiss Condition Divine Favor: 12 + 1 + 1 Protection Prayers: 9 + 1 Deadly Arts: 9 @9 Deadly Arts you get a 14 energy return off of Assassin's Promise if you can kill an enemy in 11 seconds (should be more than enough time). This would lead to perma Divine Spirit and perma Aegis on one monk. Prior to an enemy dying you can use Release Enchantments (if needed) for a 99 point party heal, assuming Divine Spirit, Aegis, and Divine Boon are all up. Biggest issue obviously is if the hexed target isn't dying. I haven't actually tried this yet so just looking for some input on the idea. lol I tried a similar build a long time ago, but I didn't like the feel of it. If it is either removed or the enemy is not dieing within the time limit, your elite slot will be wasted. I prefer regular hybrid builds.
Jaigoda
IMO, you're a lot better off with Glyph of Renewal, using it to recharge Aegis and/or Divine Spirit (maybe use DS when you're low on energy, but otherwise hit Aegis).
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
AP on a monk forces you to cycle through your own red bars and the enemy team searching for the target thats about to drop. its just a whole bunch of extra work for almost no results. use glyph of renewal. you dont really have any need for a perma aegis on one monk. if you have 2 monks you can chain it, if you dont you probably have someone maintaining SY, and then... who cares about aegis?
You wouldn't have to cycle through enemies, you'd have to press t. That is, if you're with a good group that calls. With assassin's promise, you can keep perma aegis and divine spirit. You can't do that with glyph of renewal. I also fail to see why you'd suggest running aegis on both monks when you can keep perma aegis with this build.
Assassin's promise is going to be better then glyph of renewal if you're in a good group. If you're in a bad group, you'd be better off running a build that will keep your bad players alive easy.
Div
I've never tested this, but is divine spirit enough emanagement if say, you get about 1 out of every 2 assassins promise removed?
Jaigoda
Do you really need to keep perma-Divine Spirit? I mean, I'd say its energy management is insane enough to have it up half the time and still spam to your heart's content. The rest of the time you can spend keeping up Aegis. IMO, it outstrips AP since even if you're in a good team, if they trip up and don't take the target down fast enough (or if AP just gets removed), then you're severely gimped for 45 seconds.
Originally Posted by holymasamune
EDIT: Masamune got in before me.... Quote: I've never tested this, but is divine spirit enough emanagement if say, you get about 1 out of every 2 assassins promise removed?
If you're not spamming your skills, DS alone with no other e-management/skill-recharging skills is enough to keep you from running dry. So yeah, if you're not under perma-DS, you can still keep your energy up.
Racthoh
I wouldn't run the build if I fear the hex being stripped routinely. Just like how I wouldn't run condition removal in the god's realms because Dazed, Weakness, and Blind aren't present. It's PvE, learn the areas. I also wouldn't need to cycle through targets; I'm assuming monks are watching the battlefield and can press T like Arkantos said to find the target that is going to die. If you're watching red bars I wouldn't try this.
Originally Posted by Coloneh
Quote: AP on a monk forces you to cycle through your own red bars and the enemy team searching for the target thats about to drop. its just a whole bunch of extra work for almost no results. use glyph of renewal. you dont really have any need for a perma aegis on one monk. if you have 2 monks you can chain it, if you dont you probably have someone maintaining SY, and then... who cares about aegis?
Bar compression. If I could maintain Aegis on one monk then it would free one, maybe two slots (Glyph Lesser) on the other monk. Also unlike Glyph of Renewal Assassin's Promise is going to return me energy and recharge more than one skill.
Jaigoda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Bar compression. If I could maintain Aegis on one monk then it would free one, maybe two slots (Glyph Lesser) on the other monk. Also unlike Glyph of Renewal Assassin's Promise is going to return me energy and recharge more than one skill.
Assassin's Promise is very, very conditional whether or not there's hex removal. Glyph can't be removed, and the recharge is automatic. And why would you need energy-management if you already have Divine Spirit (Aegis also helps with energy-management)?
Arkantos
Assassin's promise isn't very conditional if you're playing with competent players. I think it's quite obvious this build is aimed towards the better players, or for easier areas. It's also not only used for energy gain, it seems that you're forgetting it recharges all skills, and the bar has 30s and 60s recharge skills. It's a mix of both effects that make this elite useful in this build.
You could run glyph, which is unconditional and recharges one skill. Or you could run assassin's promise, which is somewhat conditional, recharges all skills and has an energy gain. Personally, I prefer the latter.
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
You wouldn't have to cycle through enemies, you'd have to press t. That is, if you're with a good group that calls.
can you teach my heroes to call targets?
in a guild group your going to most likely be taking a WoH and a RC/Divert because they work well. why waste your elite to maintain energy management you dont need and a skill that can already be maintained (mostly)
Arkantos
I think it's pretty obvious if I'm talking about target calling, I'm not talking about h/h groups.
In a guild group, which are usually flexible groups, why not run this? I mean sure, you could run WoH/RC/Divert, but why not run this? Assuming you're group has good players, there's no reason why you can't run unique builds that are effective.
Jaigoda
I understand the fact that it recharges skills. I'm saying that Glyph of Renewal (or just not using recharge skills at all and playing with a normal build) is more reliable. While GoR doesn't recharge skills as fast, Aegis and DS don't really need to be up 100% of the time if your team is competent. Maybe if it you built around AP and used Heaven's Delight and its double, Aegis, and other powerful slow-recharging skills, it might win out against GoR. Otherwise, I just don't see the point in justifying something that is so easy to mess up with. Even if you have an awesome team, everyone screws up sometimes, and if your team doesn't kill a foe every 10 seconds, your build loses at least half of its potential strength. And even then there's stuff that would kill your build, like Mark of Protection on Dolyak Riders, or even a foe that's kiting around a bit and gimps your melee's. The problem with AP is that it's just too finicky to use other than for just playing around.
Arkantos
As Racthoh said, learn the areas. In areas with very defensive enemies and hex removal, you're going to run into problems. But this build isn't focused on those types of areas, it's focused on areas that have little/no hex removal and less defensive enemies. In the areas the build is focused on, it's much better then GoR. In the areas the build has weaknesses in, it's obviously not going to do so great.
Dr Strangelove
Of course, in areas easy enough that you can steamroll every mob without worrying about slowdowns and don't have to worry about enemy defense, shutdown or the like, you could probably get by with any bar.
Arkantos
In easy areas where you steamroll mobs, you might as well throw hammer bash on your bar and screw around.
This build is fully capable in areas with enemies of difficulty. Assassin's promise has a 3/4 cast time, you'll have enough time to get it on an enemy before it's dead. I really can't think of an area where a single enemy won't be dead within 11 seconds other then the elite missions and some hard mode areas. Of course in these areas, you'll be better off with a standard monk bar.
cellardweller
I H'd (before heroes
 ) an AP based assasin through Factions and I could count the number of times that an enemy didn't die before the hex was over on one hand and the number of times it was removed on two. I have no problems believing that an AP based monk would work "averagely" in 90% of non-trivial PvE.
Jaigoda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
As Racthoh said, learn the areas. In areas with very defensive enemies and hex removal, you're going to run into problems. But this build isn't focused on those types of areas, it's focused on areas that have little/no hex removal and less defensive enemies. In the areas the build is focused on, it's much better then GoR. In the areas the build has weaknesses in, it's obviously not going to do so great.
And how many areas like these (that's actually got foes above level 20) are present in the game? But anyway, the point is that the build probably does work, but is still much worse than the average hybrid build, and probably more difficult. It might be fun to play around with, but it will not compare to any real monk bar, bottom line.
Cowboy Nastyman
his target will always die on time when my sin is around
Coloneh
sooo even if you can cast AP reliably 90% of time time what does this + a standard monk have over a standard 2-monk backline?
Div
Was just testing this and it works pretty well even if you have hero and hench groups provided you ping the target enough times that your heroes decide to all attack the same target
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman
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It's a fun bar for sure although I want to run it some more in a non-imbagon environment to get a real sense for its usefulness.
It can work in zones with some hex removal provided there are other hexes to eat it first. Divine Spirit, and even Aegis, were not necessary to have up at all times but proved to be quite valuable when I was able to cycle them endlessly against larger/multiple groups. If you're capable of triggering AP every time you should be able to manage without Divine Spirit.Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigoda anyway, the point is that the build probably does work, but is still much worse than the average hybrid build, and probably more difficult. It wasn't very difficult to use when I tested it tonight. T + AP button, do my monk stuff, when I see +14 in purple wait for the next target and repeat. I'm not quite sure what would make this much worse than the average hybrid bar. Release Enchantments as I already said could be replaced with Protective Spirit or Shield of Absorption, but more often than not I find myself wanting a party heal because SY doesn't help against party spread degen. Other than those two skills I can't see what else I am losing by using this build.
Quote:
Condition removal is really something I don't bring on my monk anymore unless it's RC for the big sexy heal that I think might be useful. There are two conditions that will truly hinder a group's performance in PvE; Blind and Daze. Blind is either applied too frequently that you'd have hit your removal on recharge to keep one person clean (so bring a Mel's derv), or a single interrupt would prevent the application for the duration of combat. Dazed is pretty much non-existant as long as you don't stand next to Bone Dragons. Weakness to a lesser extent is a bothersome condition in a place like Urgoz's Warren where it's going to affect everyone and there is nothing you can do about it until you kill a big tree. All the other conditions can be fought off with party heals, trying to Dismiss Condition disease off 7 party members is poor playing. Either get a party heal or something like Song of Purification to wipe everyone clean. |
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
And even then there's stuff that would kill your build, like Mark of Protection on Dolyak Riders, or even a foe that's kiting around a bit and gimps your melee's.
It wouldn't take more than a few seconds to get a rider to the point where they have to use Mark of Protection or else they die. At which point change targets. Or, bring Broad Head Arrow and maybe Rending Touch for groups of 2 riders. If there is a kiting enemy, You Move Like A Dwarf! can be slotted on someone easily for such situations. Or, kill something else.
Monks heal, prot, remove conditions, remove hexes...all on the same bar. Your hex removal will be strong. your condition removal, adequate.
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OoB booners had just the elite, the Energy Drain/Mantra of Recall version could also bring Drain Enchantment or iHex. Granted those two skills were also used for their secondary purposes, Divine Spirit does provide me with a reliable enchantment to use with Release Enchantments. While it is mostly for energy management it does have a secondary use as well.
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On that note when I actually used the build tonight I swapped Dismiss Condition for Shield of Absorption. If there wasn't an SY gon in the group I probably would've gone with Protective Spirit.
Now that I think about it more:
Dismiss Condition -> Protective Spirit if no SY gon, SoA with SY gon
Release Enchantments -> Seed of Life. Even if you mess up Seed of Life it will recharge from Assassin's Promise. Although if you're really bad with Seed of Life just stick with Release Enchantments as it will provide a more reliable heal.
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Melody Cross
2. Divine Boon has been nerfed. not just its recycle. its heal per cast is reasonably low enough that BProts don't really cut it versus other--monk elite using--casters out there today. It still "works". But a lot of things work in a good player's hands.
10 health @14 or @16 (superior on cap swap, not viable with Release Enchantments though) is what you're missing out on. The recharge is a non-issue in PvE. The biggest issues were OoB changing to 20% and the constant hammering of the Inspiration line. That, and the reduction to boon itself, is what killed it off. But really you could still play it in PvE and succeed; look at the henchmen monk's bars.
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Originally Posted by Melody Cross
Its been a long time since I ran a GoR BProt, but--in an attempt to answer holymasamune's question--without GoR reapplying DSpirit back then regularly, you were pretty much toast and your team with you. It was a fun but fragile build then, riding the razor's edge. this looks like a fun--but fragile--build now.
A lot has been added to the game since one would consider running a booner on their monk. We have these turrets called paragons with their party support, absurdly powerful PvE skills to drop the biggest threats in a matter of seconds, so on and so forth. EDIT: Quote:
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