Is there a reason to post something new?

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..... Whoa. Ok, wtf. Do you even read the posts I type? Seriously.


1.) I do understand there are no flawless builds. I've been advocating that for, IDK, ever since this game came out. I phrased that question that way for a reason. I don't just type to see what all these silly letters look like on the screen. I understand it perfectly.

2.) I have never said that cookie cutter was not effective. Never. I have ALWAYS said that it's not the only option and the brain-less zombie wave that exists on this forum purely to mislead new players is quite irritating.

3.) How are the vet-players on this forum any more creative then anyone else? The build you guys advocate for each class is, not only the same throughout each of all of your posts, but is cookie cutter throughout all of GW. There is very little wiggle room. Most of the time it's like..."well, that build will work if your ok with a sucky build. if you want a build that doesn't blow use these exact 8 skills, everytime, all the time, or your a noob."

Flexible? lol, what a joke.

Unfortunately, warriors are one of the least flexible classes available. They don't have much energy to spare, their attribute points aren't very forgiving, and they're basically required to have an attack skill chain, an anti-kite, an IAS, and a rez. If you're looking for a more flexible class, casters like mesmers, eles, and rits tend to have the most room for tweaking.

I think you're actually referring to a seperate issue here. There's a mindset among many of the duller PvE players that once you find one build you should never, ever change it or tweak it in any way. This leads to a proliferation of mending wammos, since it worked great in ascalon arena. This is also responsible for the insane love of tank+nuke in the elite missions. It's an old strategy imported from other MMOs that isn't that effective. These groups are far more likely to boot anyone who even slightly deviates from the holy trinity.

In organized PvP, builds are under strong selective pressure, so most players are unwilling to take weaker builds. However, I don't think I've played a single match that wasn't preceded by a bunch of last-minute tweaking. There isn't one great build that dominates everything, you change your builds to fit the talents of your group and the current meta. The templates you seem so opposed to are more of a good place to start, rather than the finalized godly build.

Sage advice to be honest.

Owch, I'm feeling that one.

I still am reeling over the fact that the single utility skill on a 7 skill warrior cookie cutter gets whacked by many. [don't use spells, leave that to casters]...

Em, someone must have assumed I spam my utility skill perhaps? Yeah, like I really need to spam barbs on every foe I come across. What should I put in that skill slot besides that? Penetrating Chop?

People should probably calm themselves on what utility skills a warrior brings when most of the bar can kill quite readily.

I personally wouldn't be too rigid on an axe user who religiously brings Dismember on his skill bar. The guy likes to deep wound? Ok, he has a pretty good idea of what he's doing... *if not Eviscerate*

Also, I'd probably blow up in the face of any warrior NOT bringing deep wound. Deep wound is the ultimate condition that sets up instant kills. It's the reason I love Guild Wars warriors over any other Melee in every other RPG known to exist...

Nobody can prove to me that not bringing a deep wound on a warrior is good. So there shouldn't be a need to butt rape people who keep a general idea.

Probably why I should stop posting any form of PvP builds. It seems to shake some cages lol...

Those aren't skills, they're decisions between what you can bring skill-wise.

The builds you posted were bad, anyway.

Find me one post where a veteran player here advocates using the same 8 skills in every situation and never using anything else. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Finished?

Good. What you found is a collection of popular templates with utility slots. A decent number of builds that do not dictate all 8 skills.

I don't think the question should be "who is more creative". Creativity by itself takes no skill at all. As I said before, 8 random skills on a bar is completely unique and creative. What really matters is the ability to be creative while not sucking.

For fun, here's a screenie of my cookie cutter template folder. Oh noes, the diversity!

When your limited by the game to 8 skills on a profession like warrior, a highly balanced class that takes strategy to play using skills that give strategic advantages (see anti-kite, ias, skills to kill with) then builds will tend to be very simmilar regardless.

The first challenge in the game is choosing your skills and attributes, once that is done it is up to how well the player uses those skills as well as working with his team to decide a winner.

You Flail, I kite, you use Rush (IF you have the adren) and we're kinda back where we started, only your gas tank is a bit empty...

Hence [skill]shock[/skill] and [skill]bull's strike[/skill] SURPRISE

Good players aren't against creativity, they're against bad builds. Learn to distinguish the two. Oh and bad players are like, "hey here is my awesome original non-wiki build i just made, it works against level 15 mobs so dont flame plz"

God damn unique snowflakes.
Original doesn't always equal good.
Sums up the topic.

one member of our alliance likes to be "creative" with builds. We entertain his ideas from time to time but they always end with a failure.

Here are 3 builds for necro created by people in my alliance. One was created for a specific area, one to make a bad skill better and to fight the great destroyer and one was created by our creative friend.

Lets see if you can point out the creative member of our alliance.
-----
Build 1 - N/Rt

sr 12+1
blood 12+1+1

life siphon
dark pact
blood of the aggressor
signet of agony
angorodons gaze
vampiric spirit
masochism
death pact signet
-----
build 2 -N/Mo

curses 8+1+2
soul reaping 8+2
prot 12

martyr
plague sending
extinguish
dismiss condition
defile flesh
signet of lost souls
purifying veil
resurrect.
-----
build 3 - N/x

death 12+1+1
soul reaping 12+1

rising bile
putrid bile
icy veins
necrosis
finish him
putrid explosion
consume corpse
resurrection signet.

Any build with Finish Him! is pure, crystallized win. No challenge.

Randomness doesn't equal creativity. Even in the most abstract forms of art there's usually some method in the madness.

To quote dictionary.com:

creativity: "the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations, etc.; originality, progressiveness, or imagination"

In general, the problem most 'veterans' have on these forums is interpreting 'meaningful' and getting away from the 'min/max' ideology. A build could be meaningful as it's fun to play, optimized or not. It could even be meaningful as it's NOT optimal, presenting more challenge and satisfaction on success.

What a boring game this would be if everyone was cast from the same mold.

I don't give an ass about creative builds, I care about creative gameplay.
The creative options you have with a standard 'boring' burning arrow template are almost unlimited.
I rather play that then a 'creative' build that's only capable of doing one single thing, good example are sin combo's, it's more fun to think them up then to actually play them.

I agree. However, what people seem to be talking about here seems to be something other than this.

This is a funny alternative to W/E

Fear my smite!

Funny, perhaps.
Good, no.

And on topic.
You can post any build you like imo, but don't expect people to worship you over it when the build simply sucks.

As others already said, chances of comming up with a new and good build now, 3 years or so after gw's release, are very, very small. Simply because pretty much everything has already been tried, and proven to be bad compared to the known, popular builds.

But ofcourse, nobody can stop you from running whatever you like in your own instance of the game. Just don't post your crap on here.

yes, cookie cutter is not the only option.... it's just the best option most of the time, even with "counters" taken into account.

What it all boils down to is this, there is a set number of skills and thus a set number of builds. If you intend your char to have a focused purpose then there is a finite number of builds that can achieve this.

A warrior strives to kill foes.
There are 3 ways to do this.

1: Deal a large amount of damage as fast as possible.
2: Deal a moderate amount of damage over a prolonged period of time.
3: Deal damage while preventing target from healing via knockdowns and interupts.

Once you pick the method your going to fucus on you have a set number of builds that will allow you to acomplish this task. Within those builds you have options. Several skills that can do very similiar things but vary based on cost or time or dmg. Blending those skills together correctly is what makes for a good build. You could have two builds that do almost identical dmg but one might be more efficient than the other. For an example one build using Power Attack(+36dmg for 5energy) and another using Exicutioners Strike(+40dmg for 8adrenaline). Power attack recharges faster but costs energy, which can run out fast. However if you've got a balanced build that takes that into account then it might out perform Exicutioners. If the build is out of balance then it becomes unuseable and your build fails.

If you wish to ignore the numbers and create a totaly new build that does not follow the proven math of what skills work best together then you can create something totaly unique, but ultimately weaker then the so lamented "cookie cutter" build.

In PvP using a less than perfect build grants your opponent an advantage that they will do thier very best to capitalize upon.
In PvE using a less than perfect build will slow your parties progress, sometimes imperceptably, and possibly cause more deaths even a total party wipe.


And lastly the reason people continue to post builds is because everyone likes a little pat on the back every now and then. It's human nature to crave both attention and praise, some will even take the attention if it comes in the form of negative critisims or arguments.

Besides the fact that quite a number of people use cookie cutter builds, it is that there are a few brighter sparks here who have actually tried and used them, and found them to be efficient, if not the most efficient, for its task.

There's two reasons to tweak a cookie cutter build, one is if you think you can squeeze a little more efficiency out of the build with your own bright idea, or if you are adapting the build to your own playing style.

If you tried and failed to squeeze more efficiency out of a build, oh well, its a learning experience, you now understand the build better. If you're adapting it to your own style, who cares if you're called a noob or you're not extremely efficient.

And to add, Its rarely any one person who creates a popular build. They evolve over time of people sharing suggestions and build idea's whenver new skills are released or just after a balance.

I used the dragonslash, fgs, SY, brawlers headbutt combo before it was a well known build. passed it onto my alliance who changed it a little, one guy there hadded steelfang slash. Then from a post about the combo here on guru i saw people using enduring harmony and adapted my build to use it.

That build still isn't set in stone however as you can use any IAS you wish and even gain an additional utility slot if you have enduring on a paragon in your team.
You can drop the brawlers part if your foes cannot be knocked down and add something else. Its the same basic build but adapted to meet your needs. Even while playing good warrior builds you can adapt your play style to whats needed.
Tanking builds on the other hand do not have that capability.

When I go warrior in PvP I always go crippling-knockdown.
When in PvE I always go IAS damage-dealing with.


I love to try a lot of things in RA when there are weekends. Lest weekend I tested ele builds. I finnaly ended with a Earth E/A "Don't Get Close" build.
Quite cute. Even if you where an assassin, you will die if you got close to me.
I even made a cahracter called "Do Not Get Close" and then I said "I told you" when killing enemies, XD.

Running "snowflake build" is okay ... if that build is actually good. And if that build is good, it wont stay snowflake for long.

Hence, bad builds will always stay "snowflakes" and good builds will always be "cookie cutters". (bad and good is a bit relative here thou.).

Well it works out okay for me. I run what I want and learn from my own experiences. I copy builds from the forums or something else for farming, and I've had my own builds for farming. You see since it's my time and I don't give a shit about others, I do what I want.

But yeah I tend to think a lot of the people that say people suck are tards in real life or something. I don't mind though, I make sure to tell people I'm bad at the game beforehand so they don't expect much of me.

As for Frenzy>Flail, I use Flail on every warrior build in PvP. I do this because of my own experiences, everytime I bring Frenzy I do a turn on turn off fest and get nothing done and I'm not gonna deal with that. I use Flail, they kite, they sit on their ass, I laugh, they die. Simple.

I mean with my necro I use Vamp spirit and most of the 1 energy touch skills, with 2-3 spells and Dark Aura or whatever it's called. Sure it's not a great build but if I succeed and have fun doing it that's what I'm gonna do.

So to sum it all up, I do what is fun for me, regardless if other people think my builds suck. If I join a group and I have to run something boring, I just leave.

What most people mean when they say a build is good or bad is how effective it is at accomplishing the goals for which it was constructed in the first place. Builds become standards or commonly used because people realize they are really effective at accomplishing those goals.

People don't always run standard builds because they often enjoy trying out different skills and appreciate the process of experimentation. But these experiments in most cases are not as effective as the standards, which makes them worse. Not necessarily less fun or interesting. But worse.

But on occasion this process generates new builds which themselves will become standards. In general experienced players who understand the game and clearly understand the purposes for which the build is being designed are more likely to come up with something like this.

In general most inexperienced players who use unique builds do so without knowing the game well and without a clear purpose in mind for the build at hand (a role in a team pvp build, ability to skill certain specific monsters in specific zones etc.) and as such the builds generally fail or are worse.

And so the life cycle of builds continues

people need to realize that true "uniqueness" lies not with the build, but with how a player plays that build. as such, the entire discussion of "cookie-cutter" vs "unique" builds is entirely moot.

interestingly enough, the so-called "cookie-cutter" builds allows the greatest freedom for a skilled player to adapt, while most of the "unique" builds locks the player into a given mold no matter what. as such, "cookie-cutter" builds generally become favoured over time.

You should run cookie-cutter builds because they work.

If you think of an original build that works as well as a cookie-cutter, run it.

Otherwise, don't be original.

To say that the build has nothing to do with uniqueness is absurd. The skills selected and the uses they are put to go hand in hand. When someone makes a build they select skills on the basis of what they plan on doing with them in game, and their in game needs force them to seek out skills that will accomplish those goals. So when the B-light Mo/a came out after ages of boon prot there was nothing unique about the build?

Many cookie cutter builds fail promote flexible play style. The standard searing flames ele is a really cookie cutter build. The skills on the bar are extremely one dimensional. Blow stuff up blow stuff up blow stuff up. There is also nothing inherently inflexible about unique builds given that every now standard build at one point in time was itself new and unique.

To an experienced PvP player RA and HA should be no different when it comes to making builds. All the standards must be met, what kind of offense does it bring, what kind of defensive capabilities does it have, what coordination does it require. The only difference is the scale, in RA you have 1 bar with 8 skills, and must try to sum up the most balanced and effective build you can conceive of. In HA or GvG your party can be viewed as 1 bar in it's entirety, and each individual as a skill. If you can't understand that simile, what I mean is that each player in a party brings something different to the table which underlies the "bigger image"; thus it creates a similar relation to how each skill is utilized in a build. Even split teams can be done in solo builds, simply by having split builds within one build.

Such as a build I use for AB that can both solo cap shrines with the first 3 skills, and still fend off attackers to an extent with the other 5. But of course if I were to ping this to someone in a party, they'd instantly call me "Noob" for having a preparation and barrage on the same bar, due to the person's lack of perception to see past the "known" utility of the skills.

[skill]lightning reflexes[/skill][skill]splinter weapon[/skill][skill]Barrage[/skill][skill]Natural Stride[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Pin Down[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]troll unguent[/skill]

It is not the only option and most people here do not say it is..we say it is the BEST option because IT IS.

Did you ever stop to think why did that build become "cookie-cutter"? I'll help you it is because it is more effective than other builds.

Most poeple on here are trying to point out (although sometimes not in the best way) that while your build may get you through there are superior builds out ther ethat do a better job. That doesn't mean you have to play them...I play a very sub-par build on my war in PvE lots of times because it is fun (hundred blades, barbarous slice, gash, savage slash, galrath, final thrust, enraging charge, res) I like it because I like conditions, and being able to spam skills rather than wait on adrenaline to build and this build allows you to spam attacks and cause conditions. Doesn't make it a better build because I like it just makes it fun for me to play. But, when in PvP most likely I will have evis, executioners, distracting, shock (or rending), bulls strike, frenzy, rush, rez because it simply morks better than other axe builds

The people calling you noob are likely those who don't "solocap" because in AB it works best for teams to travel together and cap shrines and that is the "nooobness" of your build. The build would still be ok in a team setting but as explained by so many in this thread "ok" is not as productive as "great" Plus the fact that 100% of the time one slot on your bar is useless..either the poision or the elite

That does not change my argument one bit. Don't like the term "good players"? Replace it with whatever group you think are "against creative builds" and my point still stands.

Good builds get positive replies, bad builds get negative replies. That's all there is to it. Maybe some will give you extra points for creativity, but in the end, if the build is bad, it's bad - creative or not.

New and good are two different things. All the builds that are now considered cookie-cutter were innovations once. They were developed by people using trial and error - mostly error. What worked was developed further - what didn't work was cast aside.

Builds become cookie-cutter, especially in PvP, because people admire winning, competency, and winning-based competency. If you want to come up with new strategies, that's great, and you may even hit upon a combination so powerful it gets adopted by others and becomes a new game standard. But don't do it for admiration, because most of the time you won't get it - do it because it's something you enjoy.

actually if they come up with a truly equal effectiveness build that is easier to run OR actually better it will BECOME the new cookie cutter instead of the laughing stock someone else called his/her so called better builds

I guess I missed the point of the thread....I have never used a 'build' from this or any other website, I create my own skill bars....and yeah people have given me suggestions for 'replace x with y' and I have used that----

so yeah something new....and there are always new people playing the game and well over a hundred skills for each profession (and I am just getting around to the eye skills----LOVE agony!!----so always messing with new 'bars)

so I guess the answer is YES.