Originally Posted by Chthon
1. When the rest of the team is not 7 kick-ass characters from the outset.
Oh, Koss and General Morgahn and Talon Silverwing are plenty beastly enough to make Spiteful Spirit one of the weakest skills on your bar. The problem with heroes and henchmen is that they are, in effect, an extension of the player controlling them. A competent player with herohench is going to find Spiteful to be one of the weaker skills on their bar. A weak player with the same heroes and henchmen is going to achieve much less, and falling back to the 'this will eventually kill things for me' elite that Spiteful Spirit provides starts to become attractive.
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Originally Posted by Chthon
2. (As Ensign noted,) When something goes wrong and your kick-ass team fails to insta-kill a mob, SS has time to do its thing. At that point SS again becomes the skill that's primarily responsible for victory.
Depends on the power of the rest of your build. If your offense is anemic, then sure, it'll be primarily responsible for victory. If you have a real offense, though, SS is something that provides the tipping point, not the skill primarily responsible for victory.
I like to joke when running a Rt/A that I am responsible for all of the team's kills, because in some situations the Ancestor's Rage is the assist that pushes the Warriors over the top. That doesn't make it the skill primarily responsible for the kills; it's simply the last part added to the equation that finally broke the threshold.
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Originally Posted by Chthon
3. When you're badly outnumbered.
The efficiency goes up from the AoE in those cases, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way the skill is functioning; it's something you put on targets that you don't plan on paying much attention to, softening them up, while you focus your attention elsewhere. It does become rather efficient damage when you can't kill foes fast enough and the AoE gets to build up, that's for certain; you simply have to ask if softening up a bunch of foes is the best use for your elite.
Before Wail of Doom, I thought that, yes, given the other options that was the best use for your elite. Now, I don't think it's a remotely fair contest if you can aim the Wail reasonably well. If you want to play pure fire and forget, Spiteful is still what you want for that role, but for raw killing ability, Wail of Doom runs laps around Spiteful.
09 Mar 2008 at 09:23 - 55
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Why? I much prefer to inflict poison on the enemy rather than sac myself. Recharge is the only thing better on Rip, and I don't see that as a major issue since you are only removing one targeted enchant.
Spell. Remove 1 enchantment from target foe. If an enchantment was removed, that foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...21...25 seconds.
5-1-10
- It does not sac life anymore.
Just to add one more thought to the SS debate: It is true, especially in EOTN, that Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon and Enfeebling Blood contribute more. Often due to positioning and mobs spreading apart.
What I do not get is this "good in Normal Mode" crap. I just want to take Vloxen Excavations as example, which is nothing to talk about in Normal Mode, but becomes a beast in Hard Mode. SS, Mark of Pain and Corner Blocking really wipe the floor there.
SS just works, and the more mobs, the merrier. Often the rest of the bar can contribute more, but why take it as elite slot?
Because the other skills do nothing of value in PvE. Corrupt Enchantment - rather use Gaze of Contempt or Rip Enchantment? Depravity - nerfed to lame levels. Feast of Corruption just suffers because SS can yield similar and often much better results. Lingering Curse - I wonder if it gets the energy cost reduced. Order of Apostasy - pray that no barrager hits all targets! Pain of Disenchantment - Dunno, I also do not know anybody else who used it so far. Plague Signet - rather take Plague Sending for the mass effect. And the more important BHA is something rangers carry along. Oh well, some more elites, and they are all not that good. ... and now I am too lazy to list the other elites, which I do not value too useful either.
I did not test Wail of Doom in PvE so far, maybe you can use it to keep down a monk, but I would still rather spread SS on multiple targets.
I guess this "killing key targets fast" is a pvp lesson transferred to pve, where it is still true. "Killing the whole group" is a PvE lesson that cannot be applied that easily to pvp, on the other hand,
09 Mar 2008 at 10:07 - 56
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Originally Posted by Longasc
Spell. Remove 1 enchantment from target foe. If an enchantment was removed, that foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...21...25 seconds.
5-1-10
- It does not sac life anymore.
That was before the recent update. Rip is unquestionably better now, except in the case where you want to apply poison specifically.
I would expect a buff to Envenom soon.
09 Mar 2008 at 16:41 - 57
[skill]assassin's promise[/skill] [skill]mark of pain[/skill] [skill]barbs[/skill] [skill]weaken armor[/skill] [skill]shadow of fear[/skill] [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] [skill]reckless haste[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
I used an [skill=text]arcane echo[/skill] [skill=text]spiteful spirit[/skill] build for a long time, but since I switched to the build above (with slight variations depending on where I'm playing) I've found that mobs actually die quicker.
With a normal mob, I put enfeeebling blood on the mele targets (they're usually grouped together at first), then put Barbs and WA on priority targets and send Koss and the fighter hench after it. Then I put Mark of pain on a Mele and use AP on a target that's about to die, and presto! MoP is ready to use again. I use RH/SoF on a mele that's giving me or anyone else problems. I find that I don't use RH/SoF that often unless the battle becomes drawn out,though I do seem to use them more often with PUGs than with HH.
Where this build really shines is in a mob with a boss (compared to the way I used to use SS), Barbs and WA gets the boss killed much faster than when I used to put SS on them. I usually save the boss for last, unless it's an Ele boss doing AoE. I just kill off all of the boss's pals and the boss is usually a piece of cake. Though, if I'm playing with a PUG, it's often difficult to convince them to save the boss for last.
Speaking of PUGS, I might switch to my old SS build when playing with them in the future. I PUG'd THK last night with the AP build, and both the warriors left, which left us with a monk, a ranger, 2 eles, and my hero monk. We still beat the mish and bonus, but it took quite a bit longer than usual, since MoP, Barbs, and WA were made useless.
EDIT: I'll probably replace SoF with [skill=text]rigor mortis[/skill]
09 Mar 2008 at 17:24 - 58
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
[skill]assassin's promise[/skill] [skill]mark of pain[/skill] [skill]barbs[/skill] [skill]weaken armor[/skill] [skill]shadow of fear[/skill] [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] [skill]reckless haste[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
EDIT: I'll probably replace SoF with [skill=text]rigor mortis[/skill]
I prefer Meekness to SoF... Then again Meekness has a heavy sac... Id still use it tbh mind ;p.
09 Mar 2008 at 22:13 - 59
SS is my main Elite. I very rarely run with anything else. That's not to say that it's the best out there because, as with all skills, it serves different purposes depending on the makeup of your enemies.
It is MORE important to cast it on the correct target than just tossing it in. Mobs are great for SS and when I group with my guildies the mob dies as one. Target is called...I target then switch once or twice and cast on THAT guy and PB him for cover. I don't use enfeeble blood or reckless haste or even archane.
Once SS is on an covered, I switch targets, usually putting Insid+PB on them. My time on that mob is over so I switch to the backline...Monks, Mez...etc. Usually, by this time, SS has recharged. I pick the baddie square in the middle of the backline SS+PB them then hit them with (if it's a monk) Faint, Phantasm, Necrosis.
SS does not kill by itself. But it sure does weaken your foes and keeps the pressure on the monks to heal everything. It's all about placement.
10 Mar 2008 at 00:37 - 60
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Give me a break. Of course I know you can put it on a priority target? Why would you think that would change my opinion of the skill? It is utter shit on a priority target. Whenever there are multiple enemies around you are always better off putting it on a non-priority target in my experience - even from the perspective of killing the priority target
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Whenever SS can deliver the last 100 or 200 or 300 damage that kills a problem creature or two and lets you go back into auto-slaughter mode for the survivors, it's worth it, even if SS ends up ending itself early for it. It's better to get the needed kills() and return to auto-slaughter mode quickly than to let SS run its full duration on a peripheral monster that you're going to kill instantly once you get around to it anyway. As a way to deal with healers and self-healers (which I agree are the only ones that are going to put up much resistance), SS has this interesting effect that the more intensely they heal, the more damage SS does. As much as I love them both, MoP and Barbs don't scale with the monster's ability to resist the way that SS does.
I would agree that a problem target should get Barbs first, and MoP if there's adjacent targets to hit that will draw healing off the primary target, and maybe even the new weaken armor (and vanguard assassin if you're using it to follow your Barbs/MoP). In that sense, SS is a lower priority spell than Barbs/MoP. But once you've done that, if the target isn't dropping, there's nothing wrong with using SS to break the target.
Do you have better options to deal that last 100/200/300 to a priority target? That aren't already on your bar? Perhaps. Do any of them also serve as a back-up "win button" if your business-as-normal offense falters? Probably not. SS serves a dual role as passable problem-critter-finisher and back-up win-through-pressure button.
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You should find whatever fast-attacking enemy is going to deal the most damage with Spiteful on it and put it on them. After several swings, whatever healer is keeping your target alive is going to start diverting heals to the Spitefulled foe, which gives you a much bigger opening for a kill than if you had wasted it on your priority target.
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I half-agree. I should have said, "SS on a faster-acting foe adjacent to your target if you've got one, and otherwise on your target." That's better damage on your primary target and diverts some healing.
I'm not a big fan of spitefulling a fast-swinging foe that's totally off somewhere else for the sole purpose of drawing healing away from my primary target. Since the primary target is still taking the most heat (unless the SS-ed target is incredibly weak or the team's offense is incredibly sucky), the healer tends to snap back to the primary target. If my goal was to kill a particular priority target, I'd only put SS on a non-adjacent target if it was the healer or maybe if it really annoying me and I just wanted it dead.
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No matter what else your team brings, no matter what they do or don't do in a fight, Spiteful Spirit will eventually kill everything on its own. Also, no matter how you use Spiteful Spirit, no matter what you put it on, it will eventually kill everything on its own. As long as you targeted enemies and pushed the Spiteful Spirit button, things would die. With a few exceptions, all your team needed to do was manage to not die until Spiteful could do its work.
It was an exceptionally good skill in PUGs, or early in the game when no one had any idea what they were doing, because of the above. You just had to be able to push the Spiteful button a lot and you'd be able to complete almost everything in PvE.
It's still decent for that reason even today. No matter how bad your team is, or how much you've had to drink, as long as you can push the Spiteful button your team will be able to kill things. It's a mindless skill that had enough raw power that, given time to work, will solve most problems.
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WoD is a quarter cast one energy dazed in my eyes and it lasts just as long as I would need it to. 