Team build (dual bonders) (for difficult areas)

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

I'm currently progressing through Nightfall with my monk, so i can't test this properly until i get a nice high Sunspear rank...

Bonder Monk
Mo/N
16 Protection Prayers
15 Divine Favor
The rest in blood magic
All Radiant Insignias/Attunement Runes

[skill]Life Bond[/skill][skill]Signet of Devotion[/skill][skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Succor[/skill][skill]Offering of Blood[/skill][skill]Resurrect[/skill] 2 OPTIONALS

Suggested optionals:
Condition/Hex removal
Blood Ritual (to help maintain energy on the support monk)




Support/Healer Monk
Mo/E
16 Divine Favor
15 Healing Prayers
Very high Sunspear Rank
+20% enchant weapon
All Radiant Insignias/Attunement runes (this is optional, but makes things easier)

[skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Resurrect[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Heal Party[/skill] 2 OPTIONALS

Suggested Optionals:
Signet of Devotion
Hex/Condition Removal

Usage:

Main Bonder
Cast balthazar's spirit on yourself
Cast Succor on support monk
Cast life bond on everyone but yourself and the support monk
Maintain bonds using signets and offering of blood.
Use signet of devotion for emergency healing

Support Monk:
Cast Blessed Aura on yourself
When everyone aggros and their health starts getting low, cast glyph of renewal, then seed of life. When seed of life goes down, cast glyph of lesser energy, then heal party as needed. As soon as glyph of renewal recharges, (if needed) recast seed of life. Repeat until there's no bad guys left alive.


Now.....everyone but the 2 monks can rush into just about any battle. The two monks can both stay very far away from the battle since there is no direct healing. Damage to everyone is reduced by half. Once the party starts to get low on health, the support monk casts Glyph of renewal, then Seed of Life on the main bonder. For 8 seconds (or so) any time ANYONE in the party takes damage, EVERYONE in the party is healed for 32 health. Needless to say, this ends up doing some SERIOUS healing. There is only 7 seconds of downtime between casts of Seed of Life with this method. This is why we also bring Glyph of Lesser Energy to spam Heal Party for that 7 seconds. There are also a few emergency heal spells built in.

Also, it works even if a party member has his enchants stripped. As long as other party members are taking damage, that one is still healed along with everyone else.

As i said, i'm farming sunspear points with my monk so i can try this myself. If any testers would like to give it a try, i would appreciate the feedback.

Another thread worth viewing:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10260043

Songbringer

Songbringer

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

EastCoast

E/Me

Suggestion if you want one. Take Mantra of Signets and use it before blessed signet(i am assuming thats why you have keystone in for. You want insta recharge on blessed signet.) That way blessed still gets recharged instantly and you can bring an elite SoD or SoR or ZB. Mantra of Signets has the same recharge as Keystone so its not like you are losing anything but that Signet of Devo won't get recharged. However your one mantra should be enough to sustain it. You would also be able to keep up mantra of persistance all the time as well. Recharge is 20 and Mantra of Signets is 30 so Persistence would be recharged by the time you an use the other one again.(Incase you were going to say can't have 2 stances up) Only downfall is the 15e Mantra of Signets costs.

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

Good suggestion. I did look at mantra of signets, but the high cost would be prohibitive. The only reason we're using anything at all is to make Blessed Signet recharge faster. Using that method you only end up net gaining about 9 energy from blessed signet with divine favor 15. I'm just not sure that will be enough to pay for the upkeep on 8 bonds....though it sounds close (another reason i'm asking for testers). Definitely worth it if it works and allows you to bring ZB tho.

Coloneh

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yichi
at what point in the game do you honestly need 2 bonders... let alone even 1... read build plz. it replaces the need for a healing backline.

decent idea. im suprized i havent seen it before. the one big problem i see is that you have some intense healing, but no condition or hex removal. your troops will be alive, but can they do anything?

also find a better elite for that monk, if its energy management your looking for try Mantra of Recall, possibly even the new Offering of Blood.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Dimento
To get an idea of the healing.. Lets say all 6 non-monk party members get hit with an AoE that does 50 damage each second. 6 x 32 = 192. Since damage is reduced by half, each player takes 25 damage, but is healed for 192 health. This results in every player in the AoE being healed for 167 health each second.....and the 2 monks being healed for 192 every second....yikes. Lets assume the AoE only lasts 5 seconds (or you dont have max sunspear rank and your SoL only lasts 5 seconds). For 10 energy, you just did 1,536hp worth of healing in 5 seconds. Life Bond only triggers on attack damage, any damage from a spell will heal for nothing.

WitTex

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2007

Isle of Meditation

E/Me

Can I take this builds for hero, with the same effects?

UPDATE:
It's not actually.

System_Crush

System_Crush

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Oct 2006

Tripping in Holland

My guild died :`(

N/

If you have a bonder that needs an energy gaining elite take [skill=text]Defender's Zeal[/skill].
[skill=text]Blessed Signet[/skill] is fine for keeping up your bonds out of combat, zeal will give you hoards of energy, if you use it correctly while in combat.

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

All suggestions/questions/criticisms replied to...thanks for the input.

Quote:
at what point in the game do you honestly need 2 bonders... let alone even 1...
Having these 2 will allow you to:

1) Forego a vulnerable healing backline
2) "Rush" into battles, as opposed to slow tanking
3) Allow both your monks to stay veeeeeeery far away from combat
4) Heal your entire party, regardless of range, for massive amounts quickly

Quote:
Can I take this builds for hero, with the same effects?
Yes, as long as you're the support monk and your hero the bonder.

Quote: Life Bond only triggers on attack damage, any damage from a spell will heal for nothing. Yep, you're right. I adjusted the builds a bit. It was a bad example i guess....

Quote:
one big problem i see is that you have some intense healing, but no condition or hex removal. your troops will be alive, but can they do anything? EDIT: With 2 optional slots per monk, there is plenty of room for condition/hex removal. Also, with the addition of heal party/glyph of lesser energy, the party can be healed significantly while out of combat.

Quote:
If you have a bonder that needs an energy gaining elite take Defender's Zeal To use defender's zeal, the bonder would have to go into aggro range of an enemy. Even though he would only be there briefly, it adds alot of risk to the whole concept.

Quote:
also find a better elite for that monk, if its energy management your looking for try Mantra of Recall, possibly even the new Offering of Blood. I hadn't noticed that sexy change to Offering of Blood. 1 energy.... That does change things a bit. Since the bonder can easily counter the health sacrifice with signet of devotion, it is definitely a preferable alternative. Combined with blessed signet, energy should never be a problem.... It also saves us 2 skill slots on the bonder.....since you wont be needing Balthazar's spirit, or keystone signet/mantra.

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Life Bond only triggers on attack damage, any damage from a spell will heal for nothing. That will be the biggest problem of this build. If you face areas with strong casters (like many in EotN), you'll notice that your team gets 2-shotted to death and your monks have no ability to prot against it or heal it back up effectively. Dual bonders can seem to work alright for areas where there are a lot of soft-hitting physicals though.

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

Quote:
That will be the biggest problem of this build. If you face areas with strong casters (like many in EotN), you'll notice that your team gets 2-shotted to death and your monks have no ability to prot against it or heal it back up Agreed. I've incorporated a few of the suggestions that were made. Now that both monks have 2 optional slots, it should work better in areas with mostly casters. However, as long as there is alot of aggro, a team should easily be able to overcome....since any single attack on a party member results in EVERYONE being healed for 32 hp. As long as no one party member is taking all the damage (a tank for instance), this should heal everyone super quick.

Also threw in GoLE and Heal Party for relatively cheap range unlimited whole party healing to help get through the caster heavy areas.

Another viable strategy is to have an ob flesh tank aggro a separate group while maintaining ob flesh. If that group has 3 or 4 enemies, every party member will be healed for about 100 - 120hp every second or so. Pretty sure the other 5 party members could handle themselves with that type of healing going on. This would work extremely well in the FoW.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

IMO, a better idea would be something like this:

[skill]Life Bond[/skill][skill]Balthazar's Spirit[/skill][skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Seed of Life[/skill][skill]Extinguish[/skill]

[skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Seed of Life[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]

The bonder should be able to manage its energy and still cast GoR+SoL so long as people take about 1-2 hits per second. With this, you can keep SoL up near-constantly, which means something very close to godmode (imagine this with an imbagon...). Your only threat is high-damage spells, which Spirit Bond is able to handle fairly effectively, especially considering it'll get healed back up by SoL in a few seconds. What do you guys think?

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
IMO, a better idea would be something like this:

[skill]Life Bond[/skill][skill]Balthazar's Spirit[/skill][skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Seed of Life[/skill][skill]Extinguish[/skill]

[skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Seed of Life[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]

The bonder should be able to manage its energy and still cast GoR+SoL so long as people take about 1-2 hits per second. With this, you can keep SoL up near-constantly, which means something very close to godmode (imagine this with an imbagon...). Your only threat is high-damage spells, which Spirit Bond is able to handle fairly effectively, especially considering it'll get healed back up by SoL in a few seconds. What do you guys think? Whom exactly is the bonder supposed to seed?

fainty

fainty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2007

Nice Joke [NICE]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
[skill]Life Bond[/skill][skill]Balthazar's Spirit[/skill][skill]Blessed Aura[/skill][skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Glyph of Renewal[/skill][skill]Seed of Life[/skill][skill]Extinguish[/skill] Able to give me this template, so i can use this Mo/Me/E ingame. but with some other skills around what are a bit more usefull for active play.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

What can I say, I made it in like 5 minutes. Could have sworn SoL was target ally, though... Whatever, just bring two hybrids and you're golden.

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

Quote:
Whom exactly is the bonder supposed to seed? That got me to thinking...... If there were 2 different bonders with identical Mo/E builds, and both of them cast life bond on the 6 non-monk party members.... The 2 monks could actually maintain Seed of Life pretty easily. Also, since they'll always be targeting (only) one another, it will be easy "taking turns" casting SoL since you'll see them cast, and can time it.

EDIT:
I just tested this in game and it works. Damage IS redirected to BOTH monks, so SoL does trigger on both monks in this fashion. It is not clear if the damage reduction stacks or not, but balthazar's Spirit also triggers in this fashion on both monks when 1 party member takes damage. Now the only issue would be energy management and hex/condition removal. Since the max SoL time is about 8 seconds after buffs, and you have 2 monks with it.....SoL can actually be...no strings attached, maintained.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
decent idea. im suprized i havent seen it before. Am I missing something? People have been running the SoL + Life Bond thing for months and months.

Bonder teams are fine and everything, but what are you using as cover enchantments for those bonds? Last time I checked, strips in PvE are not uncommon. You've also devoted two party slots to characters who are only really effective against physicals - any kind of massed caster presence is going to destroy you.

Overall, I'd say midline defense (e.g., wards, enfeebling blood, disruption, etc.) combined with standard monks is both more versatile and more resilient.

Mr Pink57

Mr Pink57

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

a van down by the river

iBench

P/W

Stripping is huge in PvE especially GWEN and later parts of NF. Also all elite missions I believe have some sort of enchant stripping along with FoW and UW. I have never been a fan of the bonder, its a poor spot on the team and is relied so heavily upon that it can make or break the team (the other monk usually just goes full heal which scares me).

For what two monks can achieve on bonding I think one necro with Enfeebling Blood can achieve just as easily. Or the ever broken Imbagon who can also provide a serious amount of damage on top of it.

pink

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pink57
Stripping is huge in PvE especially GWEN and later parts of NF. Also all elite missions I believe have some sort of enchant stripping along with FoW and UW. A good 85-90% of the mobs in FoW have enchantment removal or Nature's Renewal will reach to you. UW isn't a problem really as you can run right past all of the Nature's Renewal there; Shatters present on the Chaos Plains and Rend from in the Bone Pits.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
any kind of massed caster presence is going to destroy you. It might be amusing to go up to 3 monks and pack protective bond on all 3 so that the energy loss was reduced to 1 each. That should slow spell damage down enough that seed triggering off wand shots should overtake it.

As for getting stripped, IDK. Perhaps monks could cover adequately to keep the bonds safe, especially with 3 of them. Maybe run a team of all dervs who are self-covering?

Speaking of dervs... how about VoS? Gee... this is sounding like a team build now. 5 VoS dervs covered with life bond, protective bond, and getting healed through SoL. Toss in a non-spell condition removal (I'm thinking remedy sig, purifying finale + GftE, or plague touch) and it could border on unstoppable. Just steer clear of nature's renewal (anyone know if it activates when the enchanter or the enchantee enters its range?) and the small handful of non-spell enchant strips and you're golden. Lol call it "Chthon-way."

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[skill]Angelic Bond[/skill] + Seed of Life is pretty common

MirkoTeran

MirkoTeran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Slovenia

Scars Meadows [SMS]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
It might be amusing to go up to 3 monks and pack protective bond on all 3 so that the energy loss was reduced to 1 each. That should slow spell damage down enough that seed triggering off wand shots should overtake it. Where do you need to run 3 monks?

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by MirkoTeran
Where do you need to run 3 monks? The third monk would be there for splitting the energy loss on prot bond 1:1:1 instead of 2:1, thus making it infinitely maintainable. The point behind the prot bond is to shore up the "you'll get owned by big damage spells" shortcoming in Dr Dimento's original concept. (Of course, VoS should keep you from getting owned by big damage spells anyway, so prot bond would really only be saving you from big damage melee.) As an alternative to standard backlines, silly stuff like SoL bonders are ever going to be really competitive unless you go all the way for a silly invinci team build. The thing that surprises me is how robust you could push it to be if you really tried.

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
The third monk would be there for splitting the energy loss on prot bond 1:1:1 instead of 2:1, thus making it infinitely maintainable. The point behind the prot bond is to shore up the "you'll get owned by big damage spells" shortcoming in Dr Dimento's original concept. (Of course, VoS should keep you from getting owned by big damage spells anyway, so prot bond would really only be saving you from big damage melee.) As an alternative to standard backlines, silly stuff like SoL bonders are ever going to be really competitive unless you go all the way for a silly invinci team build. The thing that surprises me is how robust you could push it to be if you really tried. wouldn't prot bond on a nec be better (or at least some other off-monk)

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
The third monk would be there for splitting the energy loss on prot bond 1:1:1 instead of 2:1, thus making it infinitely maintainable. The point behind the prot bond is to shore up the "you'll get owned by big damage spells" shortcoming in Dr Dimento's original concept. (Of course, VoS should keep you from getting owned by big damage spells anyway, so prot bond would really only be saving you from big damage melee.) As an alternative to standard backlines, silly stuff like SoL bonders are ever going to be really competitive unless you go all the way for a silly invinci team build. The thing that surprises me is how robust you could push it to be if you really tried. I don't question how well it might survive, what I question is wasting three party slots on monks just to make it work.

shru

shru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Splitting to two bonders would not be a good idea, it splits the effectiveness of your seed of life in half. And doesn't make much sense when one bonder can handle it quite nicely.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
wouldn't prot bond on a nec be better (or at least some other off-monk)
You need 13+ prot to split 1:1:1. You might be able to split 1:1:1 with one character below 13 prot, I'm not sure.

Quote: 20% chance of +1 protection prayers offhand. Or, Grail of Might or something to the same effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I don't question how well it might survive, what I question is wasting three party slots on monks just to make it work. The hoped-for outcome is that 5 completely invincible party members who could attack relentlessly without dying, fearing dying, or even needing to kite could kill things faster than other party builds in particularly nasty areas. Failing that, it might prove a more-foolproof way of doing hard areas than tank-n-spank, ursan, or imbagon/SY warrior-based teams. And, if nothing else, it would just be amusing to have an utterly invincible team running around.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
You need 13+ prot to split 1:1:1. You might be able to split 1:1:1 with one character below 13 prot, I'm not sure.
The hoped-for outcome is that 5 completely invincible party members who could attack relentlessly without dying, fearing dying, or even needing to kite could kill things faster than other party builds in particularly nasty areas. Failing that, it might prove a more-foolproof way of doing hard areas than tank-n-spank, ursan, or imbagon/SY warrior-based teams. And, if nothing else, it would just be amusing to have an utterly invincible team running around. Tanknspank, Ursan, and SY bots are much harder to shut down. The tank has Spellbreaker and ObsFlesh preventing enchantment strips, Ursans are just Ursans, and adrenaline/shout shutdown are uncommon. The 5 prot-bonded characters would be limited to areas with no enchantment removal.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Tanknspank, Ursan, and SY bots are much harder to shut down. The tank has Spellbreaker and ObsFlesh preventing enchantment strips, Ursans are just Ursans, and adrenaline/shout shutdown are uncommon. The 5 prot-bonded characters would be limited to areas with no enchantment removal. Didn't you read the part where I theorycrafted them into VoS dervs?

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

So to make this work you'll have to find five dervish primaries as well?

Yichi

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
So to make this work you'll have to find five dervish primaries as well? and where in this game are you going to find 5 pve dervishes that don't have a complete shit bar?

That seriously sounds like way more trouble than its worth.

Dr Dimento

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

E/Me

Just for fun i made a thread to discuss the most optimistic, wacky, far out invinci-team builds. It includes most of the stuff we've discussed here. With 4 monks, 3 dervs, and 1 ele. The monks only bond of course (and seed of life when health gets low)....so they are faaaar from battle. While the 3 dervs hack people to bits (buffed by a smiter monk) and kept on their feet by an ob flesh earth ele warder. Pretty far out there in dreamland but i WILL try it once everyone gets their suggestions and ideas thrown in.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...14#post3737814