Bad PUG. Whose fault is it?
Niila
Noob monks make pug bad.
Winterclaw
Ultimately it's the fault of the party's leader. He put that pug together and if it fails it's because he did something wrong.
trialist
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enxa
Because we are playing an MMO?
 |
Option A, PUGs: Failure most of the time unless unreasonable levels of effort, time is put in to ensure success.
Option B, Heroes/Henchies: Success most of the time unless you are being stupid.
Option C, Friends/Guildies/Alliance: Success most of the time along with social interaction.
Tell me if options B and C are available, why go for A? And no, your it's an MMO reason doesn't cut it. Whatever social interaction you need can be gotten from your friends/guildies/alliance, even more so if your alliance is big (there are some people i still don't really know in my alliance though we have been playing together for some time). Option B is there if you just want to complete a quest/mission without fuss. So again, why go for Option A when you know it is fail sauce and the social interaction that can be gotten there is more bad than good? Navaros has it right with his post, it just isn't worth the effort. Go on, argue your case for PUGs instead of using one liners with no substance.
Navaros
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Ultimately it's the fault of the party's leader. He put that pug together and if it fails it's because he did something wrong.
|
That is his fault indeed.
There's isn't a large enough available pool of semi-decent PUG players out there with which to populate a semi-decent PUG. So indeed the party leader fails right off the bat by the very act of starting to make a PUG.
enxa
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enter_the_zone
And I'll say this one more time : GW is NOT an MMO, it's a CORPG. |
As for WoW i didnt compare its gameplay to GW's, i compared players. Big difference.
Miska Bow
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Navaros
There's isn't a large enough available pool of semi-decent PUG players out there with which to populate a semi-decent PUG. |
Kusandaa
I've had teams failing for about every reason possible. Bad monks, bad tanks, bad necros, bad nukers (yes, you can suck at nuking), overaggroing pullers, AFKers, leechers... name it, I've probably seen it. And I've been responsible for failures too (especially over-aggroing... >_> <_<). The thing is that when I make a mistake, I admit it.
Most PUGs won't.
The worse is the lack of communication between the team members, I'd say. I remember this Deep run where I was lead tank and we had this Spanish-speaking guy (amongst a French, a Japanese - the Frenchman spoke English and I could translate in Japanese). During all the run, the Spanish tank never, ever listened to us. It was hell (he'd attack onis, wouldn't wall up correctly, would follow me as I went to get mobs, etc etc). We tried to talk to him using very simple English, switched interfaces to Spanish, asked a teammate to translate, when he couldn't we asked an ALLIANCE guy to help... nothing worked. We were getting pissed.
And at the very end, one of the guys who spoke English suddenly starts speaking Spanish - we found out it was his main language. All this time, he could've helped us, but nope. He didn't. Our alliance was really pissed, left and didn't bother asking why he didn't help us out in translating the instructions.
Conclusion: If you speak more than one language... please, oh PLEASE say it when asked. It's MUCH easier to communicate when people say so...
... Oh and make sure you don't take people who can't even reply in your team chat. If they don't say "hi" right away, give them some time, but if at some point he hasn't said anything... I'm sorry, but kick.<
About leadership, it doesn't work if the other people don't follow. I bet some don't even have their radar and team chat on. I like being in lead of teams, but it's totally useless if people aren't even bothering to follow.
Most PUGs won't.
The worse is the lack of communication between the team members, I'd say. I remember this Deep run where I was lead tank and we had this Spanish-speaking guy (amongst a French, a Japanese - the Frenchman spoke English and I could translate in Japanese). During all the run, the Spanish tank never, ever listened to us. It was hell (he'd attack onis, wouldn't wall up correctly, would follow me as I went to get mobs, etc etc). We tried to talk to him using very simple English, switched interfaces to Spanish, asked a teammate to translate, when he couldn't we asked an ALLIANCE guy to help... nothing worked. We were getting pissed.
And at the very end, one of the guys who spoke English suddenly starts speaking Spanish - we found out it was his main language. All this time, he could've helped us, but nope. He didn't. Our alliance was really pissed, left and didn't bother asking why he didn't help us out in translating the instructions.
Conclusion: If you speak more than one language... please, oh PLEASE say it when asked. It's MUCH easier to communicate when people say so...
... Oh and make sure you don't take people who can't even reply in your team chat. If they don't say "hi" right away, give them some time, but if at some point he hasn't said anything... I'm sorry, but kick.<
About leadership, it doesn't work if the other people don't follow. I bet some don't even have their radar and team chat on. I like being in lead of teams, but it's totally useless if people aren't even bothering to follow.
Navaros
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Miska Bow
Yes there is, but they play with H/H lol
|
Kusandaa
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Navaros
Exactly, they play with H/H or friends/Guild/Alliance exclusively, and never PUG. Therefore, they are not available in the PUG pool of players available to populate a PUG with. Like I had said.
|
Although I've been PUGging DoA for a while... but that's about the only thing I PUG beside the occasional "I'm bored so I'm gonna go PUG FoW..."
Doesn't beat alliance runs where I actually have much, much more fun.
Ouchie
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Ask not whose fault it is.
The fault is thine. |
Is it the guy who wants to lead ~ that blames other people for wanting to lead?
Is it the guy who runs in and dies cause the monk can't get to him who complains the monk is bad?
Is it the monk who didn't bring any healing skills cause he needed his pet skills and blames the warrior for fighting?
IS it the guy who trys to run between two groups without agroing either and blames the guy who can't follow tight enough for agroing both groups?
Is it the guy who agroes two groups when you try to go between them then blames the leader for cutting it too close for them to make?
Is it the guy who rage quits or the guy who makes people rage quit?
Is it the leecher or the guy that turns off all chat and team chat during missions and has no idea dog is being sick and you'll be back in a minute or two
Is it the guy who didn't bring a rez cause he aint the monk or the monk who brought 4 rezes cause everyone tends to die a lot
did the Sin do it? or is that any easy answer why the mission failed?
Don't we all make mistakes no matter how long we have played or how skilled we are or how fast we are?
I could go on but instead I'll say
It's MINE
all MINE
I accept responsibility for every pug that ever failed ~ otherwise we never find out who is to blame ~ if anyone
Nanood
I spoke to my heroes and henchies since they are my PUG and everyone pointed at Devona.
JONO51
the big problem I have is time wasting. i dont have 30 mins to form a group for a 15 min mission, then have a wipe/leaver 2 mins in causing everyone to go back to town and leave the party. H/H is quicker and more successful most of the time.
Abedeus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nanood
I spoke to my heroes and henchies since they are my PUG and everyone pointed at Devona.
|
And usually if pugs fail, it's because there is no leader OR people are idiots. Like yesterday, we were doing UW and we did Clear the Chamber. Guess what, someone took all quests. We lost after 15 minutes, soul was killed by Vengeful Aatxe. Next time I said I'll tell what quests and when to do them... And even if it was my first time on a full run, we finished UW in 2h 15 minutes. But then again, I ain't going with PuG anymore. I think I'll try with my alliance, lul.
isamu kurosawa
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nanood
I spoke to my heroes and henchies since they are my PUG and everyone pointed at Devona.
|
According to vekk, zhed doesn't even do well as a pack-mule. Crazy little buggar.
romeus petrus
In general PuGs in high end PvE are a bad idea. There is not a whole lot you or anyone else can do to correct that. Simple solution is do not PuG.
RhanoctJocosa
lmao, do you guys remember the monk strike? i think it was early 06/ late 05.
good times
good times
BlueSS
THK Monk Strike was 25th of February 2006.
There were also 2 monk strikes in Lion's Arch July/August 2005 but those were small ones.
There were also 2 monk strikes in Lion's Arch July/August 2005 but those were small ones.
aapo
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enxa
But whose fault it is when a PUG fails?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enxa
Why exactly is it your fault?
You simply didnt do enough to add to the team. |
Aera Lure
Heroes are the reason, ultimately.
Prior to heroes, a higher number of players PUGed, through either choice or necessity, and they therefore were better at all the things it takes to have a successful PUG.
Nowadays skill in PvE play is focused more heavily towards running a hero or H/H team. You dont need to change your plan of action, cooperate, communicate, compromise or exhibit any patience with heroes.
I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing (though I personally think it is), as that's a different topic. Prior to the introduction of heroes I was in PUGs all the time as I enjoyed the interaction and dynamics, and very rarely had any major trouble. The occasional difficult player, but nothing the party wouldnt overcome. Played through Protector titles on six characters that way, something I'd call near impossible with PUGs nowadays and I wouldnt even want to try.
Prior to heroes, a higher number of players PUGed, through either choice or necessity, and they therefore were better at all the things it takes to have a successful PUG.
Nowadays skill in PvE play is focused more heavily towards running a hero or H/H team. You dont need to change your plan of action, cooperate, communicate, compromise or exhibit any patience with heroes.
I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing (though I personally think it is), as that's a different topic. Prior to the introduction of heroes I was in PUGs all the time as I enjoyed the interaction and dynamics, and very rarely had any major trouble. The occasional difficult player, but nothing the party wouldnt overcome. Played through Protector titles on six characters that way, something I'd call near impossible with PUGs nowadays and I wouldnt even want to try.
isamu kurosawa
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
lmao, do you guys remember the monk strike? i think it was early 06/ late 05.
good times |
Aera Lure
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BlueSS
THK Monk Strike was 25th of February 2006.
|
Terraban
You didn't put titles in your list.
Titles were the very first major blow that PuGs took. So many people worship titles and like to ignore the fact that titles were the start of the downfall of GW.
Titles were the very first major blow that PuGs took. So many people worship titles and like to ignore the fact that titles were the start of the downfall of GW.
Molock
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The Way Out
GW is free to play, there are a lot of retards playing the game, and the maturity level is atrocious on average. Putting the responsibility on the "team" sounds good in practice, however, you are as weak as your weakest link. Get a bad monk in your group that decides to stop healing or ragequit in the middle of a mission and your entire mission is shot. No one is to blame for it other than the monk, and you just wasted a ton of your time because of it. H/H never ragequit, they do as you say, and you always have the builds that you think is best. Understand?
Ideally, pugs would be great, however, they tend to fail a lot (not all the time), and it has everything to do with the people on the other side of the internet. The ones that can hide behind the fact that they can pull that kind of crap and get away with it without repercussion. Leechers, ragers, racists, afkers, nubs, noobs, and wannabe leaders... can all contribute to the cause of suck pugs... Sometimes I wish Anet would charge a monthly and begin to improve on a few things... maybe then there would be new content, less retards, and better support. Until then, we have to deal with the kids and immaturity, inconsistency and erratic behavior that is GW. |
It sums up exactly what I feel
HawkofStorms
One bad player can ruin a PUG. I've had times were the party wipes. The one bad player who over aggroed screamed at everybody (monks why didn't you heal me, etc) and rage quit. We try the mission again without that one guy and get masters.
enxa
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by aapo
- Leader's, for not making sure that the party is working together. There's signs that can be seen from mile away: not checking skillbars, taking underleveled and strange profession players and spammers, rushing in, not guiding the team...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
Stop complaining about your pugs and stop using them.
|
Squishy ftw
Mostly it is one very bad person..
Lady Lozza
In my experience it takes more that one "bad player" to ruin a pug.
All missions in Tyria (nm) can be completed one or two players down. I've not doubt that a lot of players early on dealt with conditions like this due to lack of reconnects.
There can be a lot of pressure if a monk drops, but if aggro is managed it is completely doable. It isn't too different in Cantha or Elona - though getting masters can (in some missions) be difficult without a full team.
All missions in Tyria (nm) can be completed one or two players down. I've not doubt that a lot of players early on dealt with conditions like this due to lack of reconnects.
There can be a lot of pressure if a monk drops, but if aggro is managed it is completely doable. It isn't too different in Cantha or Elona - though getting masters can (in some missions) be difficult without a full team.
maraxusofk
bad pug: it is ur fault for even joining a pug.
cosyfiep
yes when a pug fails its the whole teams fault...though some individuals may be more at fault than others...its not easy to pin point (ok sometimes it is)..there are just toooo many variables for blame to be placed squarely on just one thing.
freaky naughty
I'm sorry if I don't join everyone's PUG hate, I find PUG's almost never fail with me. I never fail with h/h either but with PUG's I can at least talk with someone and 30 minutes of mission feels like 5. If I'm ever feeling bored I go PUG, and I'm sorry I don't get why they're "rude and immature". I feel like I'm playing a different game here. Most are polite, sometimes a bit incompetent but c'mon it's PvE there's a lot of room for incompetence. It's usually the very competent ones with gwamm who call me noob or insult my title (holy lightbringer).
MercenaryKnight
Well for the whole ursan run norn point farming. The only time we died was because one monk decided party wide heals are a bad thing (of course it would of helped if the leader had checked the bar before we started).
Something along the lines of Zealous benediction, protective spirit, distortion, signet of devotion, ressurect and a low heal party.
Something along the lines of Zealous benediction, protective spirit, distortion, signet of devotion, ressurect and a low heal party.
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by maraxusofk
bad pug: it is ur fault for even joining a pug.
|
and if you don't like h/h-ing things, guilds: they exist for a reason
crazybanshee
Well, sometimes it's 1 person that ruins a pug (the stereotypical wammo, or bad monk, or survivor that doesn't help, or whatever) but I think a lot of bad pugs is just people who don't work well together (ie the people who like to stop and plan out every move verses the people who just want to go and let their reflexes work it out) or people disagreeing about which way to do things (ever been in a fow pug that couldn't agree on what quest to do next?) Bad pugs can happen to anyone, but I think the more you pug the more skilled you become at spotting the people you're absolutely not going to be able to play with.
afrika18
pugs fail because not everyone has teh best skins and most expensive gear and they don't use the leet skills. Any pug that lets an assassin in is bound to fail too. Also, you must have at least 10,000K gold to even begin to think about being in a pug.
Crom The Pale
What I found on this past weekend while vanquishing for GWEN points was that attitudes tend to clash. People have become consumed with the need to have the perfect run, no deaths and the fastest possible time.
The PUG's I was in were all very different. One had all good players and we cleared the map fast and easy with 0 problems. Others had several people screaming at the first death/party wipe. On one run a player stopped playing to watch another char, then began to scream OMG when he noticed that our necro was not running Ursan.....oh the HORROR!
In the end a PUG is just a matter of time, and little else.
The fasted run I made with a pug to vanquish Magus Stones was 50minutes.
With Hero/Hench it took me a full 1 hour 29minutes, mind you I left all the bosses alone till I had a Boss hunt then went back looking for them.
The PUG's I was in were all very different. One had all good players and we cleared the map fast and easy with 0 problems. Others had several people screaming at the first death/party wipe. On one run a player stopped playing to watch another char, then began to scream OMG when he noticed that our necro was not running Ursan.....oh the HORROR!
In the end a PUG is just a matter of time, and little else.
The fasted run I made with a pug to vanquish Magus Stones was 50minutes.
With Hero/Hench it took me a full 1 hour 29minutes, mind you I left all the bosses alone till I had a Boss hunt then went back looking for them.
BlackSephir
What the hell is wrong with people saying that PUGging exclusively allowes you to talk with other other people?
Here's a solution: find a guild, press shit + 2 or 5. Talk with people
C wut i did thar? I can H/H and still talk with others.
Here's a solution: find a guild, press shit + 2 or 5. Talk with people
C wut i did thar? I can H/H and still talk with others.
wu is me
I actually pugged a lot of the prophecies missions lately (mostly cos i really cbf reading the wiki for the bonus etc, and just wanted to get in) and i have to say, its quite enjoyable =P.
There were only two times where i failed to get masters, and yes there were times where ppl did stupid things ( such as wammos using heal sig at 80%, really offensive thing to do to a ZB monk!)
Lol there were even times where i was almost sure that the mission would be a down right failure, but i persevered for the heck of it. eg: did THK, with an uninfused lvl12 wammo using RoF and Orison (prot spirit ftw), and i was the only monk in the team. We got the bonus =].
But at the end of the day,Getting through shit like that is quite entertaining i have to say =p.
There were only two times where i failed to get masters, and yes there were times where ppl did stupid things ( such as wammos using heal sig at 80%, really offensive thing to do to a ZB monk!)
Lol there were even times where i was almost sure that the mission would be a down right failure, but i persevered for the heck of it. eg: did THK, with an uninfused lvl12 wammo using RoF and Orison (prot spirit ftw), and i was the only monk in the team. We got the bonus =].
But at the end of the day,Getting through shit like that is quite entertaining i have to say =p.
enter_the_zone
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enxa
Ok its a cooperative online rpg. Which still means you should cooperate with humans. :P
|
It's a co-operative/competitive RPG. Playing with other humans is largely optional, aside from a few areas. And those are normally done with Allies or Guildies rather than pugs.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by enxa
As for WoW i didnt compare its gameplay to GW's, i compared players. Big difference.
|
Yes, but the player differences are largely a result of the gameplay differences and not being limited to 8 skills allows for more adaption. More adaptable = better pug situation.
Zahr Dalsk
PUGs FTL
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
Numa Pompilius