So someone in my guild and I were discussing the importance of the +3 rune for MM heroes.
I think the difference between 14 and 16 Death Magic for heroes is slight.
He thinks that having 16 Death Magic is the only way to go with heroes.
Since the discussion came up I have been curious as to whether or not it is really that important. So I am asking for the opinions of others. Any thoughts?
16 death for Flesh Golem vs. 14
Zonzai
angmar_nite
16 death all the way. Flesh Golem is bad.
Songbringer
Nope Flesh Golem is bad to start. And that would be the only thing you need 16 for. Jagged all the way
madriel222
You get 8 more armor, 40 more health, and about 10 more DPS. You decide if it's worth it.
angmar_nite
You always want 16 death magic for the most minions. But use OotU, AotL, or Jagged Bones.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by madriel222
You get 8 more armor, 40 more health, and about 10 more DPS. You decide if it's worth it.
Furthermore, you'll max out at 9 minions, and cause Blood of the Master to cost 14hp more per use. (assuming 9 minions)
Your minions will also get less critical hits.
Your minions will also get less critical hits.
Racthoh
Minion Master is the only build that comes to mind where using the superior is well worth the 75 health trade off.
Songbringer
Hmmmm My hero runs 14 DM and can have 10 minions so.....
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Songbringer
|
Originally Posted by When I Mouse Over Death Magic
Without Death Magic, you can control no more than two undead servants. For every two ranks of Death Magic, you can control one additional undead servant. Many Necromancer skills, especially those that animate undead servants, manipulate corpses, and deal cold damage, become more effective with higher Death Magic.
So... it's a bug then or you're mistaken.
Zonzai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Songbringer
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Minion Master is the only build that comes to mind where using the superior is well worth the 75 health trade off.
So 16 vs. 14 is really that big a deal huh?
Not that I am disagreeing with any of you - maybe I am just not that astute - but I've never really noticed a significant difference with the effectiveness of my MM heroes. That is, I see your point "on paper" but in practice I do not notice any measurable difference, except that my necro's die slightly as often with the extra HP's. So, how can I measure this in practice? Aside from attacking a really powerful boss, because they aren't much of a factor then except to keep me alive long enough to nuke the bosses. Also, does anybody know the HP's, armor, DPS of the different minions?
Osi Ri S
Having 16 DM (also having -75hp from rune) really has not downsides because the less health you have, the less you end up saccing. So not only are your minions stronger, but you arent saccing as much.
Zonzai
Osi
You bring up a valid point. That isn't a concern for me though because I don't usually use Blood of the Master or any other skill like that. It's counter-productive to bombing. I do sometimes use feast for the dead and taste of death though, for precision bombing.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonzai
|
Quote:
Mathematically, you're giving up about 13% of your margin for error (the amount of damage you can take before you get away / a monk intervenes / everything dies, etc) - a number that increases if you make further trade-offs or pick up DP - for that boost to efficiency. What you gain from that depends on what skills you want to look at, and how many dimensions scale on them. If you're looking at getting a straight, 14-16 attribute boost:
Minion armies gain a 50% increase in potency from the superior rune, between minion durability, minion damage, and the extra minion on the cap. No character benefits nearly as much going from 14 to 16 as a Minion Master.
Spiteful Spirit and Insidious Parasite do about 25% more damage if they last their full durations. At the same time Enfeebling Blood gains very little from the extra attribute, and Reckless Haste literally gains nothing. If things die before those hexes expire naturally, you get a damage bonus on par with what you get from Barbs, 14%.
Elementalist damage skills get 10 and 13% more damage when you put on the superior. With the exception of Mind Blast and Glowing Gaze, secondary effects from your skills rarely gain anything from the attribute boost. All linearly scaling damage skills perform the same way. Defensive enchantments from Earth gain a lot of potency however, particularly Stoneflesh Aura, in addition to extra seconds that might be necessary to maintain them.
Healing skills gain between 7% (small heals) and 12% (party heals) from putting on a superior. Protection skills gain virtually nothing, usually a second or two tacked onto the end that doesn't matter that much.
Physical attackers gain about 10% extra weapon damage from putting on a superior, between base damage, extra criticals, and better skills. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83
Minion armies gain a 50% increase in potency from the superior rune, between minion durability, minion damage, and the extra minion on the cap. No character benefits nearly as much going from 14 to 16 as a Minion Master.
Spiteful Spirit and Insidious Parasite do about 25% more damage if they last their full durations. At the same time Enfeebling Blood gains very little from the extra attribute, and Reckless Haste literally gains nothing. If things die before those hexes expire naturally, you get a damage bonus on par with what you get from Barbs, 14%.
Elementalist damage skills get 10 and 13% more damage when you put on the superior. With the exception of Mind Blast and Glowing Gaze, secondary effects from your skills rarely gain anything from the attribute boost. All linearly scaling damage skills perform the same way. Defensive enchantments from Earth gain a lot of potency however, particularly Stoneflesh Aura, in addition to extra seconds that might be necessary to maintain them.
Healing skills gain between 7% (small heals) and 12% (party heals) from putting on a superior. Protection skills gain virtually nothing, usually a second or two tacked onto the end that doesn't matter that much.
Physical attackers gain about 10% extra weapon damage from putting on a superior, between base damage, extra criticals, and better skills. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonzai
Also, does anybody know the HP's, armor, DPS of the different minions?
HIT POINTS
All minions: 80 + 20*LVL
ARMOR
Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL
All other minion types: AL=4*LVL
DPS
Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done.
All minions: 80 + 20*LVL
ARMOR
Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL
All other minion types: AL=4*LVL
DPS
Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done.
Zonzai
I adjusted some stuff, and this is what I am going to try out. Further help is appreciated.
MM/Sup Olias
16 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
9 Healing
Jagged Bones
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Infuse Condition
Draw Conditions
Dwanya's Sorrow
Renew Life
I am an ele, the condition removal is not negotiable for me.
SS/MM Livia
10 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
16 Curses
Spiteful Spirit
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Parasitic Bond
Putrid Bile
Barbs
Rebirth
Rebirth is often swapped out for res sig.
-EDIT-
Also, for Livia any anti-monk curses I should consider?
MM/Sup Olias
16 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
9 Healing
Jagged Bones
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Infuse Condition
Draw Conditions
Dwanya's Sorrow
Renew Life
I am an ele, the condition removal is not negotiable for me.
SS/MM Livia
10 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
16 Curses
Spiteful Spirit
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Parasitic Bond
Putrid Bile
Barbs
Rebirth
Rebirth is often swapped out for res sig.
-EDIT-
Also, for Livia any anti-monk curses I should consider?
Asha Rai
As well as the increased damage, health and armor, higher level minions have less of a 'level difference' disadvantage. From memory, this disadvantage translates into 6 armor per level (this is why you are able to do massive damage to low level creatures). Also, my understanding is that the lower your level (relative to your attacker), the more likely they will score a critical against you.
Zonzai
Asha,
I knew that. That's usually not much of a concern for me as I tend to nuke everything to crap before it matters. And if they crit my bombers it only helps. I thank you for the info though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
I knew that. That's usually not much of a concern for me as I tend to nuke everything to crap before it matters. And if they crit my bombers it only helps. I thank you for the info though.
Quote:
HIT POINTS
All minions: 80 + 20*LVL
ARMOR
Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL
All other minion types: AL=4*LVL
DPS
Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done. Nice info to have, thank you.
All minions: 80 + 20*LVL
ARMOR
Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL
All other minion types: AL=4*LVL
DPS
Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done. Nice info to have, thank you.
Carinae
Use this: Olias MM
16 DM
13 SR
4 Blood
[skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Put your condition removal on your monk, where it should be. Don't use Draw Conditions, use Dismiss or Mend Condition. I know you are trying to funnel the conditions to the minions, but you'll get a lot more mileage out of Dismiss/Mend.
Delete the second build and never bring it up again.
16 DM
13 SR
4 Blood
[skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Put your condition removal on your monk, where it should be. Don't use Draw Conditions, use Dismiss or Mend Condition. I know you are trying to funnel the conditions to the minions, but you'll get a lot more mileage out of Dismiss/Mend.
Delete the second build and never bring it up again.
Asha Rai
Edit.
Seems my memory sux, and the level difference disadvantage applies only to attack power, and not to armor. Although the level dependent susceptibility to criticals does exist.
Seems my memory sux, and the level difference disadvantage applies only to attack power, and not to armor. Although the level dependent susceptibility to criticals does exist.
Zonzai
I gotcha Asha, I just kind of want my minions to die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Quote:
Use this: Olias MM
Delete the second build and never bring it up again. No SS then?
And I usually use hench monks... excluding HM. Which I try to avoid anyway.
Delete the second build and never bring it up again. No SS then?
And I usually use hench monks... excluding HM. Which I try to avoid anyway.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonzai
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zonzai
And I usually use hench monks... excluding HM. Which I try to avoid anyway.
Lina has condition removal in EotN (which you have, since you have Livia)
EDIT: The Olias build I gave you will run rings around your first build. Have Livia run SS, Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste, Mark of Pain, Blood Ritual, GoLE, Res Sig and one more skill of your choice. With this HUGE increase in offensive power, you can now afford to run a hero monk who will make the hench monks look like children.
Zonzai
I think I will just test it without SS then.
I need 2 MM's. It works too well with my 2 nukers to give it up.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Lina has condition removal in EotN (which you have, since you have Livia)
In reality she has a 38 point heal that sometimes hits the conditional for 101. I would never rely on a hero to use a single spot removal correctly.
Washi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Use this: Olias MM
16 DM 13 SR 4 Blood [skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill] Why would you put 3 minion skills on a bomber?  use [skill]Animate Bone Minions[/skill] and you will free 2 skill spots for utility and you will make your bombing more efficient. Unless it's not supposed to be a bomber, but it kinda looks like it with jagged bones and death nova.
Carinae
Why would I put Fiends on a bomber? Unless it's an actual MM build that gets all the goodness of a bomber when the minions die. Best of both worlds.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
In reality she has a 38 point heal that sometimes hits the conditional for 101. I would never rely on a hero to use a single spot removal correctly.
Regarding Lina, yea well, it's Lina. Regarding a hero, they use Mend Condition well enough in my experience. (Unless you know something I don't)
Zonzai
I guess I must just be missing something. I still don't see much practical difference going from 14 to 16. I like that I can get one more bomber and all but I actually end up doing a lot less bombing. The minions certainly survive longer and all...
But my rate of killing is actually slower than it was before. It's not as much slower as I thought that it was going to be though, which is nice. Your build is certainly more capable in HM, being a more MM/less bomber oriented build than what I have been using (except against high damage foes, in which case it's not really any worse either). The only thing is, I try not to do much HM with heroes. At any rate, I thank you all for the comments and especially Carinae for the advice. It's something for me to consider. --- As far as the condition removal goes. My problem is that cripple and daze really hurt my ability to nuke. And my build/play style is pretty much based around the concept of killing as quickly as possible as rapidly as possible. So, I'm not that keen on dropping my back up nuker right after losing SS. To maximize my nukage, I either need a condition removal that my heroes can spam, that I can control directly or that a PC monk can provide. Aside from just dropping a damage-dealer and adding a monk, I could throw a condition removal on Vekk and simply disable it until I need it. I could also throw a condition removal on my PC but that means that I have to be a ranger or monk secondary. I could also go back to the SS/condition remover that I used to use before EOTN. Or, I could even pray I don't get hit with any conditions and roll without any decent condition removal. We shall see. cgruber
If you want to kill fast take a MM with animate bone minnions, jagged bones, death nova, blood of the master. Also take a curse necro with SS, reckless haste, barbs, mark of pain.
Max both death and curses on each necro to 16. The dmg is multiplied by the minions. The flesh golum sucks
Zonzai
That's kind of what I was doing before, cg. (Except I also have bombers on my second necro.)
We were only debating about the Flesh Golem because my guildie used it.
angmar_nite
Tell him to stop. And Carinae, the sab olias does protect and mm simultaneously fine.
kazjun
If you're going bomber then your death may not be that important. You can run fine on a rit at 12 death using nova, jagged, minions and explosive growth+boon. But you really do want a lot of corpses around for more minions since they die as soon as anything looks at them and eles will wipe them in seconds.
If you want them to actually do damage (asides from nova), or meatshield though, you'll want to have as high death as you can to make them more durable and actually kill things. kazjun
Oh, and I'm pretty sure you miscounted if you got 10 minions with 14 death.
Zonzai
Quote:
Originally Posted by angmar_nite
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by kazjun
If you're going bomber then your death may not be that important.
I think you're right.
Zonzai
2 posts because I am cool
Abonai Laguna
argh do i hate to play jagged bones myself, i do run it on a hero but i hate doing it myself. But Jagged Bones>Flesh Golem imo
Tyla
[skill]jagged bones[/skill]
Flesh Golem is kinda....meh....
thehoweller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonzai
2 posts because I am cool
lol at this
And about Jagged Bones, I'm strongly thinking of removing it from my MM's build. It's a nice skill to have, but overall, I think having it in the elite slot is detrimental. I believe there's some nice damage potential there, whether it's from Icy Veins, or from something like Discord. I've found that Sabway is incredibly good at making stalemates. It doesn't have enough damage output to overtake excess healing in HM and this has often resulted in me giving up on vanquishing an area because of certain mobs.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehoweller
I've found that Sabway is incredibly good at making stalemates. It doesn't have enough damage output to overtake excess healing in HM and this has often resulted in me giving up on vanquishing an area because of certain mobs.
Which is why Sab suggested taking nuker and warrior henchies with you when running sabway. And his 4-man version has more offensive skills in it. Half a team dedicated to mostly offense should be good enough.
And no, if I party with someone, I wouldn't ask to bring 2 sets of sabway heroes. |
