The Mists

Actually, keep in mind that the dead have to be extremely heroic, known across the multiverse, before they can be ensconced into the Hall of Heroes. That aside, he means the living fellows who fight and die there, as in the battles in Heroes' Ascent.

I find it very hard to be "known across the multiverse" - if that was a requirement, then the Hall would probably be very unoccupied. And I know what he meant - but clearly you do not know what I meant.

When one dies, their spirit lingers until an Envoy or Avatar shows. The spirit then "moves on" which would be going to the afterlife. The Hall of Heroes is one of the many afterworlds, thus when a living being dies in the Hall of Heroes, the spirit automatically "moves on" since it is thus, automatically, in the afterworld. And that causes an issue with the resurrection "requirement" ideas - specifically the one I mentioned before I said what you quoted, Leon.

Well, technically, it is empty whenever players visit it, so.. But apparently it must be a bit easier than we expected, as it didn't exactly sound like a small amount of souls attacked Odran. And I'm sure you know I'm not just spewing nonsense here, it's said right in the Manuscripts in the section about the Rift and the Hall of Heroes, although, taking another look, it says "known across multiple worlds," but that's still quite the achievement. Turns out it's the Hall of Heroes known across the multiverse.

That, and I wasn't particularly concerned with the issue at hand, so I didn't attempt to comprehend what you were saying any further. However, I see what you mean, but technically, I would say the spirit, even if it is already in an "afterworld", does not mean it has moved on to there. It still needs to be "filed." Consider the spirits in the Underworld, for instance, they're already technically in an "afterworld", but they still need to be judged and organized into the proper area. When the Reapers are trapped, everything goes wrong there because they aren't capable of sending them to the appropriate regions of the Underworld.

But those very same spirits you talk about, Leon, I gave as an example of spirits who are not yet judged (or "filed") but cannot return to the world of the living!

Alright, hold on, what on Tyria are we talking about? What I was talking about, was about the spirits in the Hall of Heroes from the living who just died there, are we on the same wavelength here? Whenever a living person dies in the Hall of Heroes, in-game, be it accessing it through the Tomb of the Primeval Kings or Heroes' Ascent, they can be resurrected, am I mistaken?

Ok..I think I now get what you were saying. Those spirits in the Underworld, while not judged yet, have still been ensconced there by the Envoys. Let's look at it this way, there are several possibilities for why they cannot be resurrected there:

1. Lack of body in close proximity.
2. Spirit and body are no longer in the same plane of existence.
3. Spirit has already been ensconced to the Underworld for judgment. I.e. The second possibility above.
4. Body has been completely destroyed, thus, only option is for the spirit to be ensconced to the Underworld.

In the case of the living who die in the Hall of Heroes, their souls are not automatically placed there because they don't technically fit all of the above. The living individual's body is still there, on the same plane, so they can technically be resurrected. It isn't completely destroyed, although, it can be, as shown by Lord Odran's tale, which is also an indicator that one's soul does not automatically get sent there. And..Yeah, basically, the soul and body are not separated in different planes.

See, with the ghosts we see in the Underworld, they've been dead for at least two years; well, except the ghost we get a quest from, we've no idea how long he's been there, likewise for Mayor Alegheri. This tells us that no one was in a close enough proximity to resurrect them or their body wasn't in close enough proximity to be resurrected, those that could resurrect them were dead, their body's were far too damaged to be resurrected and thus their spirit was already ensconced into the Underworld for judgment.

The exception to the rule, of course, being the ghosts we see in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, and wherever else. It seems that they may be those spirits that merely have "unfinished business" or are not yet ready to pass on, so Grenth puts their ensconcing on the backburner while he takes care of the more high priority souls. (E.g. Possibly those souls closest to the blast during the Cataclysm, i.e. souls of those contaminated by Abaddon and etc.)

That is what I was commenting on, Leon.

This is the act which I said throws a wrench into the understanding of Resurrection in a lore basis, and something I prefer to not look at as I view it as more of a game mechanic than lore (would be boring PvP if all kinds of PvP are one time kill matches, after all).

And the Hall of Heroes isn't the only place where this issue resides. There is also the Realm of Torment which has resurrection shrines in a realm of the afterlife.

Those two, really, are all you need to say. And those two would close fix that wrench I mentioned just above.

And the "closeness" thing could explain the selection of the Resurrection Shrine where you get resurrected - the closest one activated. Though, again, that could be more of game mechanic and less than lore.

Resurrection is my least favorite lore topic.

Which is what I realized after the first paragraph of my previous post.

Right..So..Hasn't my rambling technically found the best solution for the entire issue of Resurrection, for the time being at least, albeit not initially intended?

Entire issue? No. Just that particular issue.

There is still the issue of what deems a person resurrectable. That is, past the idea of the spirit having moved on. You only fixed the issue of resurrection in the afterlife.

Technically..It can still apply to the real-world. If the body's destroyed or mutilated beyond recognition, you can't honestly expect to be able to resurrect it even if the soul is still on the same plane. E.g. Togo and Prince Rurik. However, it would appear that they can be resurrected in a way, albeit in the form of necromantic reanimation, in the case of Prince Rurik. So..If the body's destroyed, they simply cannot be resurrected, if they are mutilated beyond recognition, there is a chance that they can be resurrected, but only through reanimation.

You cut out the last option on the list I laid out, which I think still does hold a proper place, obviously. The second and third could easily be assimilated.

(By the way, ever notice those two are the only ones decapitated?)

Togo isn't decapitated. Nor is Rurik, technically, you can see his neck is fully attached as an undead. But you can see that the armor got cut off by the axe of Dagmar.

Who says you can't reattach a head through reanimation? Also, it's pretty heavily implied that Rurik's head is chopped off, I thought, at least. Right as Dagnar goes over to kill him, it cuts to black, and you hear a blade-going-through-flesh sound.

Also, and I'd have to check this, but I thought they had a head plop sound effect whenever Shiro killed Togo. The position he was kneeling in seemed to imply his head being prepared to be chopped off to me, at any rate.

That "plop" sound was most likely just the body hitting the floor - which would be the case for all deaths - NPC or PC. Especially the Ritualist model (I used that sound in a video contest once, had to listen to it many times while testing).

And even if you can reattach a head in animation, it would still show signs. And all showings of undeath animation shows visual affects of how one died (along with decay)... usually at least.

In Rurik's case, it might simply be that when the Vizier got hold of the body, raising him as a controlled undead suited his purpose more than as a free-willed living being. By the time we got to him, on the other hand, the body was decayed beyond the point that a resurrection spell could fix.

As we seem to drift off topic anyway, i might aswell give resurrection a place in lore; For me Resurrection (atleast for us players) is simply a gift from Dwayna (we get the resurrection signet from a monk, from the venture as team quest in pre-searing); So for me it does not only serve a game feature, but it is part of Dwayna's 'magic' aiding the 'weak'.

I am unsure which signet/rez one gets on Cantha,
but i have seen the sunspear signet on Elona..

Monks then seem to hold the major Res powers (inspired by Dwayna)
The Ritualist seems to be a bit of a Grenth/Dwayna inspired profession, having flesh of my flesh which seems to be a bit of a necro rez.
The Paragon on the other hand seems to be more of a Baltazar/Dwayna combo..

For me, (having all campains, but mainly stayed in Prophecies) it is also a bit hard to see which Gods supply the magic for the professions in the other campains. where on Tyria it is fairy simple..

War and Fire: Balthazar --> Warrior
Beauty, Illusion, Energy and Chaos: Lyssa --> Mesmer
Earth and Nature: Melandru --> Ranger
Death and Ice: Grenth --> Necro
Life and Air: Dwayna ---> Monk

Perhaps relating the Assasin / Ritualist / Dervish / Paragon to the Gods that supply the magic will make it easier for me (all) to place the gods and their magic in their places and thus the realms..

You don't need to give them a "place in lore" for me, as I know they have a place in lore. Glint and other NPCs speak of resurrection in a lore sense already. The issue for me with Resurrection, which is why I dislike talking about it, is the mass confusion of why some people can be resurrected, and why others can't. Along with that, why those special NPCs who die throughout quests, cinematics, missions, etc. don't get resurrected themselves.

Aside from the signet from monk comment - as you can be any profession and get it from a skill trainer or warriors (I think) for Factions characters and a Paragon for Nightfall characters.

The signet one gets in Kryta would be a signet of Capture, which isn't resurrection. So I don't get this comment...

This is all very much off-topic.

This bunch just lost me. What does Abaddon have to do with what you've been saying? And it's not so much Abaddon had the power of two gods, but he could win in a 2 on 1 battle (that is, as strong as two gods combined, there is a difference in words, what you said is saying that he had the powers of two previous gods).

And what do you mean by "Relating the professions in the campain to which Abaddon plays his major role would clearify from which gods he got his magic"? As far as we know, Abaddon had no "profession" as the Dervish profession was made during the Shattered Dynasty (which was way after Abaddon's fall and removal of knowledge of him from Tyria) and, like Elementalists, the Dervishes worship all gods. This little part belongs in this thread.

There does not seem to be a thread for Resurrection alone with lore - though it has been discussed. Feel free to make one (with research of course, those hold better sway for making and starting discussions).

I request we get back to the Mists, as we have been off-topic for long enough.

I meant Cantha not Kryta (which caused the confusion) ...

Deleted the Abaddon reference as there are allready threads on this ..

I will leave the Ressurection Thread to a monk, as he/she would obviously have more knowledge on the topic... For why some ingame characters can not be ressurected, perhaps it was just their time? (But i can see how it can become quite confusing indeed) ... perhaps we will find an answer in the Mists