This is meant to be a PvE general build.
Attributes
Motivation=11+1+3
Spear Mastery=10+1
Rest In Leadership with a +1 Leadership Rune
Skills
Aria Of Restoration
Chorus Of Restoration
Ballad Of Restoration
Song Of Restoration (E)
Signet Of Synergy
Signet Of Return
Remedy Signet
Spear Of Lightning
Please Give Me Some (Nice,Not Mean )Comment And Suggestions On How To Make This Better.
/Thanks
Edit=I Decided To Put Spear Of Fury In Place Of Spear Of Lightning So I Dont Have To Put Atts. In Spear Mastery And I Can Put More In Leadership (Also Im Savior Of The Kurzicks)
Is this a Good Paragon Build?
Guruman
Antithesis
It's functional in NM but doesn't take the best advantage of the powerhouse PvE Paragon. I must admit that i ran a similar bar on Morgahn for most of the Nightfall storyline back in the day 
You're a glorified party heal shouter and healing is better left to Monks and N/Rts. Paragons are better at inflicting and preventing damage than healing it. If this bar is for a player then it's not a good build. If it's for a Hero it'll work, but there are better options.
You're a glorified party heal shouter and healing is better left to Monks and N/Rts. Paragons are better at inflicting and preventing damage than healing it. If this bar is for a player then it's not a good build. If it's for a Hero it'll work, but there are better options.
naeilfang
It is a good build for a ursan support para but other than that it isnt worth much.
MercenaryKnight
If you have kurzick title then put save yourselves on your bar. Best pve skill possible for damage reduction. Most likely an ias would work good and if you don't want to keep up aggressive refrain you could try drunken master or flail or something.
jonnieboi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
Richardt
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
Very good point! Especially considering SY! is a warrior skill lol.
Anyways, your build is fairly close to the FoW "healer" build that you see from time to time. I actually like it, but I usually relegate it to a hero and run something else that utilizes PvE skills on my bar. It used to be pretty good until they upped the recharge time on SoR (grrrr).
If you want something more efficient, I would say go with a N/Rt healer-does a great job and highly energy efficient. It'll sever you well in the majority of NM, and some low end HM stuff. But if you want to get serious about HM and Elite areas, you'll want something with more healing punch.
EDIT: There is some controversy about Spear of Fury. If you don't have GWEN, or don't want to grind for Vanguard points, it's a nice alternative to the Standard of Honor. With you having max Kurz., I'm gonna say that it'll prolly do more damage than Spear of Lightening (something to test with Master of Damage).
Anyways, your build is fairly close to the FoW "healer" build that you see from time to time. I actually like it, but I usually relegate it to a hero and run something else that utilizes PvE skills on my bar. It used to be pretty good until they upped the recharge time on SoR (grrrr).
If you want something more efficient, I would say go with a N/Rt healer-does a great job and highly energy efficient. It'll sever you well in the majority of NM, and some low end HM stuff. But if you want to get serious about HM and Elite areas, you'll want something with more healing punch.
EDIT: There is some controversy about Spear of Fury. If you don't have GWEN, or don't want to grind for Vanguard points, it's a nice alternative to the Standard of Honor. With you having max Kurz., I'm gonna say that it'll prolly do more damage than Spear of Lightening (something to test with Master of Damage).
Terraban
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Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
The same could be said with all "good" players...
Mostly all of them run the "same crap", so does that mean that the majority of good players are as bad as ursan?
And to be on topic somewhat...yeah that build is mediocre. Paragons don't have enough strong support abilities to go pure support. Not to mention that they can do lots of damage with their spear, so they are losing out on that if they go full support.
Heres a little graph I made to show what a Paragon should be.
Mostly all of them run the "same crap", so does that mean that the majority of good players are as bad as ursan?
And to be on topic somewhat...yeah that build is mediocre. Paragons don't have enough strong support abilities to go pure support. Not to mention that they can do lots of damage with their spear, so they are losing out on that if they go full support.
Heres a little graph I made to show what a Paragon should be.
Yichi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guruman
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Originally Posted by Guruman
I Decided To Put Spear Of Fury In Place Of Spear Of Lightning So I Dont Have To Put Atts. In Spear Mastery...
These 2 statements contradict each other.
xDusT II
You only need 1-2 Restorative chants + TnTF, and Signet of Synergy isn't necessary. Add Aggressive Refrain and some offence.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
The bars are not the same, just similar in style.
If what you say is true, this statement can be said of almost every established skill bar. Then technically everyone is as bad as ursan users.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
Because it's the most powerful build in the game?
Antithesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05
why does everyone always recommend SY? seriously guys.... i don't mean this as a flame.. but c'mon.. doesn't it get to you that you're being just as bad as ursan users by all running the same crap? think about it. ._.
If the skill exists and it does the job better than any alternative, it makes perfect sense to use it. Why should i feel bad running the best possible skillbar to keep my team alive?
Fantus
Well, I guess the OP didn't ask if his build is the most powerful in the game, he asked if it's a good build. And this build isn't bad at all and while obviously not suitable for direct healing does well in pressure reduction. Yes, SY is considerably more powerful than any other damage reduction build in the game. However, if we'd all run the "most powerful" build at any given time there would be only one build left in the game. Which would be booooring.
Antithesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guruman
Edit=I Decided To Put Spear Of Fury In Place Of Spear Of Lightning So I Dont Have To Put Atts. In Spear Mastery And I Can Put More In Leadership (Also Im Savior Of The Kurzicks)
Normally i'd say 'boo! hiss!' but this build spends about half its time shouting, therefore has little damage output compared to the alternatives.
I'd still palm this off onto a hero.
Surena
So we don't run the most powerful build in the game because it could lead to degenerate playstyles which might spread throughout the playerbase and ruin it for all?
Guess what? When people Ursancarebear the whole game it means they don't give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.  The OP lacks AR. AR helps you get more adrenaline to fuel skills (from which leadership benefits) and much much better dps. A Paragon without offense is just not good.
Antithesis
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Originally Posted by Surena
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Originally Posted by Surena
A Paragon without offense is just not good.
I couldn't agree more. If the OP wants to run the bar, then we should still be open to helping him improve it. Regardless of whether we like it or not, the build still works.
Fantus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
The bar is chock full of energy shouts and weak on offense...AR's not going to help.
You beat me to it..
Some people stuff AR into every single Paragon bar without even thinking whether it makes sense in there or not. In this one it certainly doesn't make any sense it all. There are perfectly great Paragon builds that don't use any IAS at all. And whether this specific build requires more offense or not would depend a fair bit on the rest of the team composition, in my view. The great thing about Paragon is versatility - they can be both offensively or defensively oriented or a mixture of both. There is no law requiring offense in every single Paragon build (or defense, for that matter). If the team lacks general damage output I'd stuff more offense in there for sure. If the rest of the team are Ursans anyway, I wouldn't bother. 
Surena
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Originally Posted by Fantus
Some people stuff AR into every single Paragon bar without even thinking whether it makes sense in there or not. In this one it certainly doesn't make any sense it all. There are perfectly great Paragon builds that don't use any IAS at all. |
The bar is chock full of energy shouts and weak on offense...AR's not going to help.
I wasn't suggesting to replace one exact skill of the OP's bar with AR to make it better, I was just pointing out that AR is a must-have (as IASes generally are), and you should build a bit around it.
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Yes, there are also pure healer builds with 7 heals/1 resurrection, Fire-Eles with 7 offensive spells, no utility, warriors with 8 attack skills. They are all way bad.Quote:
Couldn't disagree any more. Many good Motivation lines I know don't use any IAS at all. Motivation in general isn't really about offense. There is no reason to construct everything you do around one (admittedly good) skill, particularly if it doesn't fit the general theme of the build.|
And whether this specific build requires more offense or not would depend a fair bit on the rest of the team composition, in my view. The great thing about Paragon is versatility - they can be both offensively or defensively oriented or a mixture of both. There is no law requiring offense in every single Paragon build (or defense, for that matter). If the team lacks general damage output I'd stuff more offense in there for sure. If the rest of the team are Ursans anyway, I wouldn't bother.
Of course there is no law on how you should play but there are factors that lead to better play and with the great offensive capabilities a Paragon has you'd be very stupid NOT to make use of them. That's why you need to be both to be better. This is not about "skill competition" amongst PvErs but the potential you definitely miss.
Stormlord Alex
Too many healing chants, imo.
Just take 2 of them - Ballad of Restoration with Song of Restoration as the elite; or Ballad with Song of Purification as the elite depending on the area. Throw onto this "There's Nothing to Fear!" - this acts as both a heal and an insane prot skill; then you're left with half a bar to play with for something the paragon is incredibly good at - killing shit. Attribute-wise, I'd probably for for an 11/10/10 split... 11+1 Leadership 10+1+1 Spear Mastery 10+1 Motivation (you might wanna buff this up to 12 for 3 conditions removed on Purification) [skill]aggressive refrain[/skill] [skill]anthem of flame[/skill] [skill]song of purification[/skill] (or SoR) [skill]ballad of restoration[/skill] [skill]signet of return[/skill] Anthem of Flame isn't needed, that's more of an easy way of keeping up AR +energy gain with a small damage buff. Just use whatever 2 spear attacks you want - [skill=text]wearying spear[/skill] might work with with Song of Purification.
Fantus
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Originally Posted by Surena
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Originally Posted by Surena
Of course there is no law on how you should play but there are factors that lead to better play and with the great offensive capabilities a Paragon has you'd be very stupid NOT to make use of them.
Except if your build is all about defense and not offense. In that case it would be very stupid to so. AR in the OP's build would be like putting a Smite skill into a Protection Monk's bar. It just doesn't make any sense. Yes, it WOULD be possible to construct a good hybrid build with AR and some offensive skills in it and some Motivation skills too. That this build doesn't have that it doesn't make it automatically bad. It just depends on what the player wants to do with this build. Personally I am not a big fan of hybrid builds and rarely use them. Usually I want my bar to do one thing right and not do several things at once but none of them really good.
Surena
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Originally Posted by Fantus
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Nobody advised to put AR into that exact bar for a better change. Why do I have to repeat that? It's about building around it. It had nothing to do with the OP's bar in the first place but it has all to do with building a good paragon, and I am very sure the OP wants to get better.
Alex posted a great build. That's where the OP should start. Things that work and have proven themselves to work.
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Ok, bai!|
Yes, it WOULD be possible to construct a good hybrid build with AR and some offensive skills in it and some Motivation skills too. That this build doesn't have that it doesn't make it automatically bad. It just depends on what the player wants to do with this build. Personally I am not a big fan of hybrid builds and rarely use them. Usually I want my bar to do one thing right and not do several things at once but none of them really good.
These hybrid builds are better than all other one-sided builds. Not only are they much more flexible individually but also much more powerful when combined within a team.
Stormlord Alex
Fantus, the point that's trying to be made s that a Paragon going pure Motivation isn't living up to his potential - packing your bar with Moti healing chants merely causes a lot of unnecessary overlap; and wastes one of the most overpwoered things in the game - the spear.
If you wanted such team healing, a team would be after a full-blown Healer's Boon monk, which is better than a motigon by far in terms of healing - where motigons shine is that they can provide substantial support alongside incredible damage output. Paragons should never 'specialize' imo - it's wasting a lot of potential; like a Mind Blaster running nothing but Fire nukes or a Rit going pure Resto. Midliners, as a rule, hybrid their abilities - because they can and it creates a stronger, more flexible character overall; making for a substantially stronger team. Waffling aside... Pure motigon = bad, because Healer's Boon would outclass it in every single way.
Fantus
I never said I would run a Mot build purely filled with Restoration chants, btw. The Motivation line is full of nice things to put in other than just healing over time (e.g Condition removal...). When I say I don't usually run hybrid builds I didn't mean I run one-trick ponies. What I meant that I usually prefer to work with one general theme. Offense and defense are different themes to me, so yes, I rarely pack them together. It's a matter of taste in the end, I guess.
The only thing I vigorously disagree with is someone's statement that a Paragon build without AR in it is automatically bad. a) There are other IAS options than just AR and b) Not all Paragon builds need IAS, particularly Defensive or Utility ones.
Savio
a) The best nonalcoholic IAS option for Paragons is AR.
b) A paragon build without an IAS is either a build that could benefit from an IAS or a bad build (i.e. a build based solely on Motivation).
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Fantus
The only thing I vigorously disagree with is someone's statement that a Paragon build without AR in it is automatically bad. a) There are other IAS options than just AR and b) Not all Paragon builds need IAS, particularly Defensive or Utility ones.
I'd advise you to look at Terraban graph, it's a fairly good representation of what a good paragon should be. Though if I make one, good would be more toward offense, so 60-40% or 65-35% than 50-50%.
So base on that definition - a paragon without AR is automatically bad, because without an IAS you've cut down your offensive capability. And AR is the best IAS for a paragon despite there are many who believe otherwise. Drunken Master and Alchohol/Essence of Celerity can be better, but usually there are better choice for PvE skill when you can only bring 3 and AR works just fine.
Fantus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
So base on that definition - a paragon without AR is automatically bad, because without an IAS you've cut down your offensive capability. And AR is the best IAS for a paragon despite there are many who believe otherwise. Drunken Master and Alchohol/Essence of Celerity can be better, but usually there are better choice for PvE skill when you can only bring 3 and AR works just fine.
AR is certainly the most effective IAS if all you do is take a calculator and add up the amount of tossed spears over time. It's in 60%+ of all my own Paragon builds, so no need to tell me it's a good skill, I know that. There are many situations/team builds where it's not really smart to turn your Paragon into a glass cannon running around with a near-permanent -20 AL penalty though, and that's what the spreadsheet you probably used to determine that AR is so uber-leet probably didn't take into account. If you want to continue to believe that any Paragon build not having AR in is automatically a bad one, then all I can say is: Feel free to believe what you want. Who am I to question other people's religious beliefs.
I take my leave from this thread.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Fantus
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Originally Posted by Fantus
There are many situations/team builds where it's not really smart to turn your Paragon into a glass cannon running around with a near-permanent -20 AL penalty though, and that's what the spreadsheet you probably used to determine that AR is so uber-leet probably didn't take into account.
Good thing you leave because if you didn't I would have love to see the answer to this question. But just incase you're still here, can I get an example of when you don't want your paragon to do damage and the build please? And no, sorry to disappoint
 , but there is no magical spreadsheet or calculator that I use to determine AR is the best IAS for a paragon. I just use common sense and my head to determine the pros and cons of all the IAS and came up with that. Shocking, I know.
RhanoctJocosa
why would you even consider not running ar on a paragon in pve? phael
ps shaz is baddddddddddd!1 ^___^
Shaz
Because -20AL is bad on a ranged high armor character? lol
ps no u
Moloch Vein
I would definitely consider not bringing AR on a paragon if I was running with hench monks or hero monks that were packing any condition removal skills.
Shocking, I know...
Shaz
I have 3 paragon with AR with hench monk using dismiss, and there were no problem what so ever, there must be something wrong with your hench. The only time it would be a problem is for the hench monk in Factions where they use Blessed Light, then you can just use the spirit henchman instead.
Moloch Vein
Could you please post the exact bars you're running on your hero paragons? Also what elite you run on your human paragon.
As a side note... I try not to run AR on my paragons. I know it's a great IAS for various reasons listed or not listed here. I also think that an IAS is actually more important for a paragon than for a warrior. I just hate what Arenanet has done with the skill. It's an ugly, ugly nerf. If, say, they'd simply given it "you have -20 armor"... fine. Beyond fine. But conditions popping up and down on my support characters for no goddamn reason... It just rubs me the wrong way.
Shaz
Uhhhh they change all the time. But ok.
Vicious Attack, Swift Javelin, Cruel Spear, Anthem of Envy, GFTE, Anthem of Weariness(probably something else, but i seem to forget at the moment, so this will do), Aggressive Refrain, and Signet of Return. Vicious Attack, Swift Javelin, Blazing Spear, Expel Hexes, Anthem of Flame, Hexbreaker Aria, Aggressive Refrain, and Signet of Return. I'm just a generic SY! gon Clarissa F
I don't think he needs to show monk builds, considering someone would be a fool to not have some condition removal on a hero monk. Believe me, Dunk is 'tarded spamming Dismiss on you. It is rare I would ever have Cracked Armor for more than a few seconds.
Really, though, you could just run SY, TNtF and GftE and give all the buffs the average team needs. Plus, the buffs will cover that -20 AL nicely. With a res and AR, that still gives you 3 slots to modify your build for any situation, including whatever elite you want. Part of support is pressure, and what better pressure than raining spears on the target at high volume? Killing the enemy fast is still the best way to keep a team alive, or so I heard. PS: sorry about the monk thing. should stay away from this before having morning coffee.
Moloch Vein
I'm still trying to find two optional paragon support bars to run on my heroes. I'm running damage augmenter and/or SY on my necromancer toon...
My latest attempt to fit AR into the bars without the monks going apeshit trying to remove the CA goes like this: Song/Purif., Chorus/Rest., Lyric/Zeal, Finale/Rest., Signet/Synergy, Spear Swipe, AR, Sig/Return DA, GFTE, Anthem/Envy, Never Surrender, Spear Swipe, Merciless Spear, Sig/Return Other player character brings third hero para for second DA with some other stuff (if that other player is there.) Signet of Synergy sucks but I can't find anything suitable to replace it with. Sorry for derailing the thread but hey isn't this the paragon workshop anyway... EDIT: Wasn't asking for monk builds...
Bobby2
Iz ova to teh Darkk Sied
IAS: - higher damage - moar adrenaline! AR = the best because it's - free - doesn't require upkeep time as it's refreshed passively I don't run Hero Monks anymore, so no condi removal to bother me. Racthoh, I throw in the towel 
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
I would definitely consider not bringing AR on a paragon if I was running with hench monks or hero monks that were packing any condition removal skills.
Shocking, I know... It's a non-issue - Paragons are that damn powerful, they can support the party well enough that the hench/hero monks will be able to waste energy on condition removal with no detriment to the team.
Racthoh
Condition removal on monk heroes is terrible, just throwing that out there into the argument about monk heroes wasting energy removing cracked armour making AR bad.
Yichi
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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
I'm still trying to find two optional paragon support bars to run on my heroes...
Run 1 support w/ damage, and one damage w/ support imo. the bars I use are:
Para 1 hero: OQGkUVlsJimDQ+Bbh5KM4Ks7WeD Barbed spear Spear of Lightning Cruel Spear Go for the eyes anthem of flame Shield's up or WY! Argessive Refrain Signet of Return 14 spear (12+1+1), 10 leadership (9+1), 9 command (8+1), rest into tactics Para 2 hero: OQGkUZl7ZimDQ+BXh5KrbOs7WeD Barbed spear Spear of lightning Anthem of flame Shields up or WY! Song of restoration Ballad of restoration Agressive Refrain Signet of Return 13 spear (11+1+1), 10 leadership (9+1), 10 Motivation (9+1), rest into tactics Run this with a ss or WoD/barbs/putrid explosion necro for my heroes.
Moloch Vein
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
Condition removal on monk heroes is terrible, just throwing that out there into the argument about monk heroes wasting energy removing cracked armour making AR bad.
It is a rare thing when I have a human healer available. If I want one I usually have to do it myself on my N.
Small guild, you know... |
