evolution of the assassin

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

just some interesting figures i've pulled out of my memory bank. this will start from Factions release to present time.

#1: AoD assassin
AoD{e}, GPS, horns, falling spider, twisting fangs, shadow refuge, dark escape, rez sig

the first dominant assassin build, and played anywhere from pve to gvg. greatly popularized by EvIL and WM with their shadowstepping antics. total damage per spike: ~440 with degen, completed in 7 seconds.

#2: AoD shock assassin
AoD{e}, shock, falling spider, twisting fangs, disrupting stab, shadow refuge, dark escape, rez sig

after the nerfs to AoD and GPS, the koreans came up with this build. by today's standard, it's absolutely laughable. essentially, the assassin build that EvIL relied on during their prime was nothing more than a teleporting deep wound with some disruption thrown in. it should be noted that it's impossible to instagib a person with this build, even if two shock assassins spike the same target. after all, deepwound does not stack. total damage per spike: ~300 with degen, completed in 4 seconds.

#3: SP instagib sin (this was run when shadow prison lasted 7 seconds at 4 deadly arts)
SP{e}, black lotus strike, twisting fangs, black spider strike, blades of steel, dash, burst of aggression, rez sig

this became very popular after the update that saw huge assassin damage buffs. it is probably the first "instagib" assassin build ever created. total damage per spike: ~570 with degen, completed in 4 seconds.

#4: SP instagib sin (after slight nerfs to shadow prison duration)
SP{e}, black lotus strike, horns, black spider strike, blades of steel, impale, tiger stance, expose defenses/rez sig

similar to the first SP sin, but with more raw damage. less degen, but that hardly matters because it guaranteed a kill if you successfully run through the combo. total damage per spike: ~610 with degen, completed in 4 seconds

#5: SP instagib sin (after more nerfs to shadow prison duration and recharge)
SP{e}, black mantis strike, jungle strike, trampling ox, falling lotus strike, twisting fangs, tiger stance, expose defenses/rez sig

yet another incarnation of the SP sin. after black lotus strike got turned into a lead attack, this was the only way to instagib someone reliably. total damage per spike: ~600 with dgen, completely in 4-5 seconds

------

there are other assassin builds of course, but i feel these five demonstrates the evolution of the assassin as a profession.

by looking at the builds from start to finish, one can notice two trends: greatly increased damage, and greatly decreased self-sufficiency and disruption. essentially, we have the shock assassin on one end, and the various versions of the SP sin on the other end.

with this loss of survivability and disruption, we're also seeing a shift on the purpose of the assassin split. while EvIL's dual shock assassin builds relied on just two assassins, today's assassin gank builds need two assassins and a monk to babysit them. EvIL's assassins were not really for ganking npcs. rather, they were especially good at creating odd-man matchups on the map. their ability to rapidly collapse back from base to flagstand (and vice versa) was their greatest strength.

nowadays, assassin gank teams strictly attempts to take out npcs. if someone goes back to defend against them, they spike out the defender and continue. the assassin as a profession went from a highly mobile, DISRUPTION based character into a single-minded spiker

so to sum it up: assassin damage went up, survivability and disruption went down. this changed the assassin from a mobile disruption character into a spiker.

--------

now the interesting question is: is this a good thing? well, it depends. it should be noted that the assassin's ability to survive and disrupt has not been directly nerfed. rather, their increased damage output made those two aspects obsolete. after all, which is easier: carefully timing your shock and dstab to interrupt key skills, and slowly kill the target; or just go 123456 and blow it up in one go?

anyways, my personal opinion is that the assassin should shift closer to the AoD shock assassin archtype, and away from the SP instagib assassin archtype. the former, by neccessity, require a much greater skill level and understanding of the game to play effectively, than the latter. it's also, in my opinion, more fun to watch and play.

Clarissa F

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Fighters of the Shiverpeaks

Me/Mo

Good summary of the evolution of assassins. It is telling that many lol's are passed out when anything other than a Moebius sin is mentioned. The evolution can also be related to how the devs have been, with support of many in the game, modifying the sin toward more pve success. For PvP, the evolution of the sin has been a steady downward slope. For PvE, with the MS/DB/Critical Agility trinity, it has great overall usefullness, but is about as fun as watching paint dry.

I'd love to see the interrupt/condition side get more love, again. It would be worth the loss of overall damage spike to get some true utility out of assassins. Besides, the AoD was just fun to watch.

Adam of Tyria

Adam of Tyria

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

W/

Have Anet revert most skills to their glory days? Or similar to what they used to be?

(Not including the SP skills and combos.)

Buns United

Buns United

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Holland, ZHZ

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria
Have Anet revert most skills to their glory days? Or similar to what they used to be?

(Not including the SP skills and combos.) The SP skills and combos actually were pretty baed in their 'glory days', Shadow Prison was imba, I can tell you that but impale was useless, blades of steel had a max cap of 40(?) extra damage..

Although yeah, it's hard to change people's mindsets back to that. It'd nerf so many templates, p*ss off so many people, and change the assassin as a whole.

Trinity Fire Angel

Trinity Fire Angel

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

The Desert

Legions of Engalion [自由]

Mo/W

have ANet increase crit defences and make them more survivable in the wild, increase self healing etc etc and then decrease some dmg output.

Way of Perfection is pretty much on par with the elementalists Aura of Restoration.... except it totally SUX. Shadow Refuge is laughable with the 1sec cast time and low duration and small health boost at the end. Sins need a way of staying alive longer with their low low low armour as well as being able to still spike assissit and move about freely on the dancefloor.

put it simply, with the way the assassin is set up today. it is killl or be killed. if you cannot kill in one go,,, you need to be able to at least last a bit longer out there on your own.

moriz

moriz

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

blades of steel used to have a cap of +40. some update way back when increased it to +75. that's pretty much what made the instagib builds possible.

Bowstring Badass

Bowstring Badass

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...

Purple Lingerie - :D

You forgot A/Me think [WM] or [EvIL] ran it...

AoD-GPS-horns-falling spider-Twisting-Distortion-Shadw Refuge-DarkEscape

ax mastery

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buns United
Although yeah, it's hard to change people's mindsets back to that. It'd nerf so many templates, p*ss off so many people, and change the assassin as a whole. You say that like it's a bad thing.

RavagerOfDreams

RavagerOfDreams

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

somewhere over the rainbow....

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
You forgot A/Me think [WM] or [EvIL] ran it...

AoD-GPS-horns-falling spider-Twisting-Distortion-Shadw Refuge-DarkEscape yup yup

your missing the VERY beginning back when WM had fun with sins right when factions came out

moriz

moriz

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

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please note build #1. especially, note the similarities.

distortion is a minor variant of the overall build. if memory serves me correctly, EvIL first ran that build with contemplation of purity in that skill slot.

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

I was thinking about this last night...

My solution to "fixing" assassins is this:

Make all Duals disable all other Dual attacks for a certain amount of time. That way a combo can only consist of one dual attack, and most of the instagib builds are hurt pretty bad.

With the instagib in a bad place, then assassin utility can be unnerfed, and buffed on the skills that need it.

Basically this would change the assassins role into spike assist + offensive support.

This is all opinion by the way, and I am sure few people will agree with it, so don't bother flaming.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

The question in PvP is mostly which is most effective and easier to execute reliably. The instagib doesn't require timing/less damage and won't be favorable.

In PvE, instagib is definitely preferred. Easy and quick kills is everyone's favorite and rather just make the monster your b*tch than try disrupting.

RavagerOfDreams

RavagerOfDreams

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

somewhere over the rainbow....

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
Make all Duals disable all other Dual attacks for a certain amount of time. That way a combo can only consist of one dual attack, and most all builds are hurt pretty bad. lemme fix that for you

moriz

moriz

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

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don't know about you, but it won't affect the vampiric assault->sig build at all. neither will it affect the shock assassin.... at least the one that EvIL ran.

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

Sigh. Makes me wonder why the Shove Sin didn't catch on...

RavagerOfDreams

RavagerOfDreams

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

somewhere over the rainbow....

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Sigh. Makes me wonder why the Shove Sin didn't catch on...
xD i run a shove sin

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
xD i run a shove sin Me too but they're quite rare. Which is strange, seeing as they have
- AoD Shock's KD-lock capacity (albeit a bit less versatile)
- much of SP's raw damage due to the powerful Falling offhands

fireflyry

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

Personally I've never got the Shove Sin but each to their own.

PS:Cool thread Moriz.Great reading.

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
lemme fix that for you All assassin builds run 2 duals? What?

Wild Karrde

Wild Karrde

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2006

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel
have ANet increase crit defences and make them more survivable in the wild, increase self healing etc etc and then decrease some dmg output.

Way of Perfection is pretty much on par with the elementalists Aura of Restoration.... except it totally SUX. Shadow Refuge is laughable with the 1sec cast time and low duration and small health boost at the end. Sins need a way of staying alive longer with their low low low armour as well as being able to still spike assissit and move about freely on the dancefloor.

put it simply, with the way the assassin is set up today. it is killl or be killed. if you cannot kill in one go,,, you need to be able to at least last a bit longer out there on your own.
70 armor is low low low??? WTF wow im sure all casters would love to have 70 armor, also RANGERS AND DERVISHES have 70 AL as well.

Its not that sins have paper armor its that most/all sins dont give a second thought about survivability when they can load up with 5 or 6 ATTACK skills and step in and kill something in a few seconds. They dont care if they die as long as they kill something with their "1337" ninja skillz.

Nice post Moriz. I would like to see the sin revert back to disruption rather than instagib.

BlueSS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Finland

Me/E

SoS sins should be on that list too? all the sin split guilds had one.

dark prison, shroud of silence, iron palm, falling spider, vampiric assault, impale, signet of toxic shock, siphon speed

and what about the current meta? scythe sins!

edit: ooh, new update. looks like scythe sins are already out :P

Willow O Whisper

Willow O Whisper

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2007

Denmark

Knights Of The Sacred Light [KSL]

Me/A

I totaly agree with you Moriz changing back into that direction can only bring good things with it .

RavagerOfDreams

RavagerOfDreams

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

somewhere over the rainbow....

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
All assassin builds run 2 duals? What? besides moebius + shattering

yes

sad...but true

Pvp4lyfe

Pvp4lyfe

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

Mafia Of Annhilation

D/Mo

excellent job moriz but one thing i have noticed in evolution is the new "condition spam + sig of toxic shock and dead. corruption spike" that seems to hav a dmg cap of about 780 dmg. now thats evolution from the AoD sin build that did about 400 or less.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

i'm quite sure they deal around 480... at least the ones i've been playing around with. i suppose if you lengthen the combo it can reach 780+, but it's generally not worth it, i believe.

but anyways, these builds more or less are in the same line as the SP sins: they are pure spikers.

jaeharys targaryen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Picnic Pioneers[asian characters]

E/Mo

you'd more effectively catch the spirit of the AoD family by grouping them together under two schools:namely, AoD with GPS(and list its attack chain) and AoD without GPS(and list its attack chain). to list the rest of the build specifically is stupid, theres always (some times significant) variants

look at the modern a/e:
dash-shadow refuge 7 SA
dark escape shadow refuge 9 SA
death's charge shadow refuge 7-9 SA

the utility in the AoD family has always changed(including off proffession defense, although /e lacks that)

also:
Quote:
70 armor is low low low??? WTF wow im sure all casters would love to have 70 armor, also RANGERS AND DERVISHES have 70 AL as well. rangers also take half elemental damage and in any respectable build will have signficant protection in terms of blockign and self healing and disruption


dervishes have 25 extra health and oftentimes pack protective enchantments.

although the gist of your argument is correct(i.e., the glass cannon argument is only true because of total idiots), dont go around comparing assassins to rangers

EDIT::
also, document the DA sin(not the /mo, the /any from when DP was 50/50 5)
and the modern splitter, i.e. sp>palm>spider>vamp>imp>sots(/n, /any in variants)
dont document the A/D, its a different world entirely
the SA sin should also be documented
the Moebius HB sin
the sp with trampling should be acknowledged as the descedant/ HB version of the sp/ts, dont make it sound like they were contemporarys(although there meta's run together)

if you really wanna take this to the next level, you could try to document as well the significant meta shifts and skill changes that defined the assassin.

Regulus X

Regulus X

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

N/A

D/W

Assassins' have evolved from Fierce Black Panthers to mere lil' black kittens. Izzy's got a grudge on the very profession and it's blatently clear:

SP = FTL
AP = FTL
SoS = FTL
A/Any = FTL

If ya'll don't like assassins no more, why not just have them withdrawn/recalled from Factions as a whole?

- Update -

Assassins have been recalled from Guild Wars: Factions.

(*Wouldn't that be as sight to see!*)

Sir Pandra Pierva

Sir Pandra Pierva

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Sardelec yelling at Tenshi

Angels Of Strife

E/

lol izzy hates sins no one knows why....or does someone know why he hates em so much?

Bowstring Badass

Bowstring Badass

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...

Purple Lingerie - :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva
lol izzy hates sins no one knows why....or does someone know why he hates em so much? He doesn't like instagibs. lol

ensoriki

ensoriki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada bro.

A/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria
Have Anet revert most skills to their glory days? Or similar to what they used to be?

(Not including the SP skills and combos.)
then you have a class thats left behind in time who is inferior to the current state of the meta.

Unless you bring back Shadow of Haste in its glory =P.

Also Reverts of skills means jack squat when player mentality will just see
"aaah no instigib....put in more attacks!"

Assassins don't have the utility to survive a revert anyways, going back in time would probably just leave them crappy.

Quote: if you really wanna take this to the next level, you could try to document as well the significant meta shifts and skill changes that defined the assassin. AOD
GPS
moebius
Death blossom
dash
Shadow of Haste
Shadow Walk
Return
Deaths charge
Twisting fangs
Horns of the ox
Impale
Wild strike.
Disrupting Dagger
Black Lotus strike
Black Mantis thrust
Leaping mantis sting.

...if I remember those were/are the main ones >.>
Quote:
He doesn't like instagibs. lol looks like the opposite to me

RavagerOfDreams

RavagerOfDreams

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

somewhere over the rainbow....

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva
lol izzy hates sins no one knows why....or does someone know why he hates em so much? he got raped one to many times by a sp sin

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulus X
Assassins' have evolved from Fierce Black Panthers to mere lil' black kittens. Izzy's got a grudge on the very profession and it's blatently clear:

SP = FTL
AP = FTL
SoS = FTL
A/Any = FTL

If ya'll don't like assassins no more, why not just have them withdrawn/recalled from Factions as a whole?

- Update -

Assassins have been recalled from Guild Wars: Factions.

(*Wouldn't that be as sight to see!*) yet it was the same izzy that gave assassins huge buffs a year ago, which allowed the whole "instagib" playing style to be viable. before that, an assassin (or any single character, for that matter) that can take someone from 100% hp to 0 in one combo was absolutely unheard of.

personally, i think most of you who are weeping over this are blowing things out of proportion. i can still play my assassin very effectively despite these nerfs. all it takes is a little bit of retooling and readjustment of the approach i take.

now, back to the thread at hand...

i intended for the thread as a general glance at the evolution of the assassin. i really can't be bothered to analyze each major update and the changes made to the profession. i chose the five builds because they are representative of the general idea and mindset behind playing the assassin at the time.

essentially, the assassin started out as a highly mobile disruption character that can take full advantage of odd-man matchups, then over time becomes simplified to straight-up spikers. the last few updates more or less shifted them back to what they were like before.

ensoriki

ensoriki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada bro.

A/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz

the assassin started out as a highly mobile disruption character that can take full advantage of odd-man matchups, then over time becomes simplified to straight-up spikers. the last few updates more or less shifted them back to what they were like before. Where are you seeing this?

There were no or next to none (maybe I overlooked) updates in the past 3 months that put that incentive there, they look more like nerfed spikers now not mobile disruption

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Put simply, since straight spike is dead, the only thing 'Sins CAN do now is mobile disruption. Before, there was no point to run anything but instagib on an Assassin, since a straight kill in 5 seconds is better than disrupting and finally killing a foe in 15+ seconds, if even that. Now, disruption is pretty much 'Sin's best bet...

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
it should be noted that the assassin's ability to survive and disrupt has not been directly nerfed. rather, their increased damage output made those two aspects obsolete. no actual buff or nerf regarding assassin disruption took place. however, the buffs to straight damage kinda pushed the disruption aspect out. now with damage going back down, disruption is more prominent.

samcobra

samcobra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

USA

Mo/Me

You forgot the deadly arts assassins, of which there were several varieties, but two major ones:
1) The Dancing Daggers guy
2) the Mistral Edge Vamp assault guys

Also, currently, strong sin bar is the AoD A/D, which has the capability of instagibbing someone, along with increased survivability due to AoD and self heal.

Problem with assassins is that as you nerf their damage, they need more slots to do their job, and they lose utility making them even less of a balanced class

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

It's funny to see that Anet's attempts to nerf the most broken retarded class to ever exist, made them stronger.

ensoriki

ensoriki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada bro.

A/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
It's funny to see that Anet's attempts to nerf the most broken retarded class to ever exist, made them stronger. They made Paragons stronger?

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
It's funny to see that Anet's attempts to nerf the most broken retarded class to ever exist, made them stronger. Riiiiiight so which skill buff made this happen? 'Nerfs making a class stronger' = contradictio in terminis

craigrs84

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
They made Paragons stronger? lol that's funny.

i don't really think of what they've been doing as of late as nerfing skills, more eliminating them.

i mean whats up with siphon speed. it went from a 5 second recharge to a 30 second recharge. that's like a 600% nerf. why... at least make it full range now.