Did someone at ANet get creamed by a Ranger in PvP this week or what??
Sundering/Penetrating Attack
Maverick2201
Wow... way to really swing that nerf bat, ANet... were these skills really all that unbalanced? They are pretty high energy (for a Ranger skill) and they didn't really do a whole whole lot of damage as it was unless you boosted it with something like Judge's Insight.
Did someone at ANet get creamed by a Ranger in PvP this week or what??
Did someone at ANet get creamed by a Ranger in PvP this week or what??
Stormlord Alex
pewpewpew turret rangers
/close thread
/close thread
xDusT II
Yes, they were that unbalanced.
Tyla
Beat me to it Alex.
Turret Rangers should die!
Turret Rangers should die!
Maverick2201
WTF is a Turret Ranger? Why can't ANet differentiate between a PvP exploit and PvE? I'm assuming, of course, that Turret Ranger's are a PvP thing...
Tyla
The skills are not seperated -- but I'm wondering, why do such small skill balances affect you when you can just take [skill]broad head arrow[/skill] or [skill]burning arrow[/skill]?
- Tain -
Turret rangers = quick activation, high damage skills for a quick spike. Rangers were not created to deal damage like that, so it was nerfed. And it was good. Any crying about this affecting PvE is silly - they shouldn't have been on your PvE bar - but as far as balance: in PvE, you will always have skills to blow your enemies to hell. In PvP, balance is a lot more critical and overpowered skills are game-breaking. That is why skill balances almost always revolve around PvP.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDusT II
Yes, they were that unbalanced.
They provided far too much offensive punch for a template that, essentially, took absolutely no skill at all to play.
Maverick2201
Ya know what's funny? People don't realize that ANet is in a constant cycle of skill nerfs... Once they nerf every skill, the ones that were "unbalanced" to begin with, will suddenly become "unbalanced" again. What they and you don't realize is that balance is impossible in a game with hundreds and hundreds of skills... otherwise they'd all be the same.
Every skill has its pros and cons. If you make a game with that many different skills and therefore that many different combinations of 8 skills, you're bound to have thousands of "unbalanced" builds. Instead of whining so damn much, people should learn to adapt.
If ANet is going to keep attempting to kill a build that happens to work well, they should just make one PvP skill that everyone can use that does 1 damage, costs 1 energy and 1 second recharge. Everyone should have the same amount of armor, health and energy. That way people will stop complaining about "balance" and will get to show off their uber-1337 clicking skills.
I guess the only good thing that comes from constant skill nerfs is that it keeps the build pool fresh as old builds become unusable and new ones have to be created by the very same innovative folks that created the old builds. Then, of course, people will cry about it being unbalanced, ANet will nerf THAT build and then the cycle will begin again.
Honestly, I wish the innovators would stop tellin everyone about their build once they come up with a good one...
Every skill has its pros and cons. If you make a game with that many different skills and therefore that many different combinations of 8 skills, you're bound to have thousands of "unbalanced" builds. Instead of whining so damn much, people should learn to adapt.
If ANet is going to keep attempting to kill a build that happens to work well, they should just make one PvP skill that everyone can use that does 1 damage, costs 1 energy and 1 second recharge. Everyone should have the same amount of armor, health and energy. That way people will stop complaining about "balance" and will get to show off their uber-1337 clicking skills.
I guess the only good thing that comes from constant skill nerfs is that it keeps the build pool fresh as old builds become unusable and new ones have to be created by the very same innovative folks that created the old builds. Then, of course, people will cry about it being unbalanced, ANet will nerf THAT build and then the cycle will begin again.
Honestly, I wish the innovators would stop tellin everyone about their build once they come up with a good one...
Tyla
...Maverick, why do you complain about PvP'ers 'Whining' but you're whining right now?
Things are imbalanced, and have to be fixed. Your PvE bar shouldn't be affected strongly at all, since PvE is won mostly by rolling your head against the keyboard.
Things are imbalanced, and have to be fixed. Your PvE bar shouldn't be affected strongly at all, since PvE is won mostly by rolling your head against the keyboard.
Maverick2201
rolling your head against the keyboard? thats a bit extreme....
things are ALWAYS going to be imbalanced... hell, one person's intelligence pitted against another's is imbalance... what should we do? give all PvPers a lobotomy so that everyone is "balanced"?
I'm whining because its rediculous that ANet feels the need to whack skills with their nerf-bat because some people can't adapt. And it aggravates me that it affects myself who never plays PvP... And yes, I do have Sundering/Penetrating in one of my builds... its a nice 1-2 punch that I enjoy using.
Are you goin to try to convince me that there is absolutely NO defense for this attack? Or that people like you just can't come up with one so you cry to ANet to stop them from using it?
things are ALWAYS going to be imbalanced... hell, one person's intelligence pitted against another's is imbalance... what should we do? give all PvPers a lobotomy so that everyone is "balanced"?
I'm whining because its rediculous that ANet feels the need to whack skills with their nerf-bat because some people can't adapt. And it aggravates me that it affects myself who never plays PvP... And yes, I do have Sundering/Penetrating in one of my builds... its a nice 1-2 punch that I enjoy using.
Are you goin to try to convince me that there is absolutely NO defense for this attack? Or that people like you just can't come up with one so you cry to ANet to stop them from using it?
Tyla
Errr...YOU try and play GvG against these pre-nerf.
Oh yeah, if you're telling PvP'ers to adapt -- they do, what about when skills they use get nerfed? They adapt. What about you? Adapt to the skill nerfs yourself. QQing about skill balances is like saying "I DON'T WANT TO GROW UP!!!" when you're like 4 years old.
Oh yeah, if you're telling PvP'ers to adapt -- they do, what about when skills they use get nerfed? They adapt. What about you? Adapt to the skill nerfs yourself. QQing about skill balances is like saying "I DON'T WANT TO GROW UP!!!" when you're like 4 years old.
- Tain -
People seem to have the idea that if Anet just didn't touch anything, everything would be heavenly.
Which makes me laugh/cry/facepalm every time I see the reactions to skill balances.
Which makes me laugh/cry/facepalm every time I see the reactions to skill balances.
Maverick2201
Let me ask you this...
Do you honestly, truly believe that there can ever be a true balance in the hundreds and hundreds of skills in Guild Wars? I don't think it's possible.
So really, IMHO, skill nerfs are a vain effort, at best...
Do you honestly, truly believe that there can ever be a true balance in the hundreds and hundreds of skills in Guild Wars? I don't think it's possible.
So really, IMHO, skill nerfs are a vain effort, at best...
Tyla
Who said that?
It's down to bad skill designs in the end -- Rangers WERE NOT for damage. Not even half of what this was.
It's down to bad skill designs in the end -- Rangers WERE NOT for damage. Not even half of what this was.
Maverick2201
I guess I agree... if they're not designed for damage (only for spreading conditions and interrupting) why give them ANY damage skills at all? Why not just give them defenses, conditions and interrupts so they can do what they are supposed to do?
I don't think monks were designed for damage either... why not completely destroy any ability for a monk to cause damage?
Thats it... thats true balance... have only Ele's, Warriors, Dervishes be damage dealers...
While we're at it, lets make it so only Monks can resurrect... after all, Warriors and Elementalists aren't supposed to help other teammates - only deal damage...
Why not just make maybe 10 or so PvP builds that everyone can choose from... surely that would make everything balanced, right?
By the way, for the record, I don't consider this crying... this is me having an intelligent discussion/argument with you.
I don't think monks were designed for damage either... why not completely destroy any ability for a monk to cause damage?
Thats it... thats true balance... have only Ele's, Warriors, Dervishes be damage dealers...
While we're at it, lets make it so only Monks can resurrect... after all, Warriors and Elementalists aren't supposed to help other teammates - only deal damage...
Why not just make maybe 10 or so PvP builds that everyone can choose from... surely that would make everything balanced, right?
By the way, for the record, I don't consider this crying... this is me having an intelligent discussion/argument with you.
Tyla
Ele's are not intended Damage Dealers, but they have a decent damage rate, and can still bring utility.
I'm doubting your understanding of GW. By far.
I'm doubting your understanding of GW. By far.
Dr Strangelove
OP seems to have missed the part where these skills were massively buffed a couple months ago, but have now been scaled back a bit. They're still stronger than they used to be.
Bow attacks are not meant to be higher DPS than anything else in the game. It's ok that they have some damage attacks, it's a matter of scale.
Bow attacks are not meant to be higher DPS than anything else in the game. It's ok that they have some damage attacks, it's a matter of scale.
Maverick2201
Ele's are pretty much designed to be either nukers or earth tanks... what else do you see an Ele as being 'designed' to do?
I suppose you could say they buff other player's skills with things like Mark of Rodgort, etc.
maybe you're right, Dr Strangelove... I haven't been playing GW all that long so I don't know the history of skills... I'll give you that.
I suppose you could say they buff other player's skills with things like Mark of Rodgort, etc.
maybe you're right, Dr Strangelove... I haven't been playing GW all that long so I don't know the history of skills... I'll give you that.
Washi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
Ele's are pretty much designed to be either nukers or earth tanks... what else do you see an Ele as being 'designed' to do?
I suppose you could say they buff other player's skills with things like Mark of Rodgort, etc. LOL
blind? snare?
hello?
Maverick... you need to play this game a bit more to understand what balance is. If you never play pvp you have no idea what you're talkin about. Just let more experienced people decide what is good mkay?
I suppose you could say they buff other player's skills with things like Mark of Rodgort, etc. LOL
blind? snare?
hello?
Maverick... you need to play this game a bit more to understand what balance is. If you never play pvp you have no idea what you're talkin about. Just let more experienced people decide what is good mkay?
Maverick2201
I'm fine with that, Washi... lets have a PvP version of skills and a PvE version of skills... you folks that enjoy having your own little pow-wow's with one another in an arena have your own set of skills and leave PvE'er skills alone.
This particular nerf doesn't affect me all that much... I just keep waiting for ANet to respond to some complaint about something I DO use often in PvE and then it gets nerfed into uselessness...
This particular nerf doesn't affect me all that much... I just keep waiting for ANet to respond to some complaint about something I DO use often in PvE and then it gets nerfed into uselessness...
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
Ele's are pretty much designed to be either nukers or earth tanks... what else do you see an Ele as being 'designed' to do?
[skill]ward against melee[/skill][skill]ward against elements[/skill][skill]ward of stability[/skill][skill]blinding surge[/skill][skill]blinding flash[/skill] (then the entire Water Magic line) [skill]gale[/skill][skill]ward against foes[/skill]
Elementalists are mainly a Support role. You have strong offensive and defensive capabilities, but it's damage doesn't compare to that of a Warrior, or Dervish.
If you look at those skills, Blind > Melee, Gale (KD) is a shutdown skill that makes them go byebye for 2 seconds. Ward Against Foes is a Snare skill, along with the majority of the Water Magic line, it's got strong offense and defense.
With an Elementalist you have strong support, but Damage shouldn't be your focus.
(p.s: Sorry for going off-topic.)
Now, on topic: Washi explained it well.
And PvE is easy.
Elementalists are mainly a Support role. You have strong offensive and defensive capabilities, but it's damage doesn't compare to that of a Warrior, or Dervish.
If you look at those skills, Blind > Melee, Gale (KD) is a shutdown skill that makes them go byebye for 2 seconds. Ward Against Foes is a Snare skill, along with the majority of the Water Magic line, it's got strong offense and defense.
With an Elementalist you have strong support, but Damage shouldn't be your focus.
(p.s: Sorry for going off-topic.)
Now, on topic: Washi explained it well.
And PvE is easy.
moriz
i think you crybabies are overdoing it this time (like always).
you can still machinegun people with these skills... just that you can't hit for 70 damage each shot anymore. i think 50 damage per hit, every second, is still pretty nice.
you can still machinegun people with these skills... just that you can't hit for 70 damage each shot anymore. i think 50 damage per hit, every second, is still pretty nice.
Julia-Louis Dreyfus
i dont think the people that cry realize that nerfs are good. if there were no nerfs everyone would still be running gale warriors 
Maverick2201
My biggest questions have yet to be answered... do you think that the nerf bat can quash human innovation to the point that nerfing and balancing can finally cease? If so, do you think its a good thing? Do you think true 100% balance is even a possibility in a game with so many different combinations of skills? Really, thats all this boils down to... the main goal of the nerf bat is to undo the human innovation that came up with the build in the first place. There WILL be another end-all be-all build that will need nerfing... guess what... after that, there will be another one.
And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol
And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol
- Tain -
There is a theoretical perfect balance, and while we will never see that, we can hope for a meta where many balanced builds will function effectively without any one being too effective.
Maverick2201
I guess I just wonder how, in a game where much of your skill is determined by your ability to match skills together to come up with a good build to suit your needs, you can balance everything so that no one build is too effective. If ANet even begins to approach this 'perfect balance', will there ever be any big wins or big losses? Will every game be determined by 1 kill?
We're not talking about a FPS where much of your skill is determined by your ability to precisely aim with a mouse and time your clicks just right, etc.
Much of GW skill is based in your build and setup... know what I mean?
We're not talking about a FPS where much of your skill is determined by your ability to precisely aim with a mouse and time your clicks just right, etc.
Much of GW skill is based in your build and setup... know what I mean?
Splitisoda
Well, now this skill is ENTIRELY useless, and to make it worse the archers in AB use this skill.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
Much of GW skill is based in your build and setup... know what I mean?
I would disagree. Running a certain build =/= skill. Anyone can do that. Exactly how/when/where/what you use from that bar = skill.
XDeadboltX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
My biggest questions have yet to be answered... do you think that the nerf bat can quash human innovation to the point that nerfing and balancing can finally cease? If so, do you think its a good thing? Do you think true 100% balance is even a possibility in a game with so many different combinations of skills? Really, thats all this boils down to... the main goal of the nerf bat is to undo the human innovation that came up with the build in the first place. There WILL be another end-all be-all build that will need nerfing... guess what... after that, there will be another one.
And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol I dont think so, but as somebody said earlier, I think its a good thing. I would not be playing this game if things werent freshened up with buffs and nerfs. The problem comes as people have said, is when players who just press 1>2>3 can just beat teams who play with decent tactics or balanced builds or whatever.
And before you know it, enough builds will have become nerfed that the original nerfed builds will become viable again... mark my words... lol I dont think so, but as somebody said earlier, I think its a good thing. I would not be playing this game if things werent freshened up with buffs and nerfs. The problem comes as people have said, is when players who just press 1>2>3 can just beat teams who play with decent tactics or balanced builds or whatever.
Maverick2201
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
I would disagree. Running a certain build =/= skill. Anyone can do that. Exactly how/when/where/what you use from that bar = skill.
Well yes, anyone can use someone else's build... it takes true skill to come up with your own killer build and figure out the best way to use it...
i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build...
i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build...
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
Well yes, anyone can use someone else's build... it takes true skill to come up with your own killer build and figure out the best way to use it...
i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build... Having a counter to an overpowered build doesn't make it balanced, as the game will quickly become "run this build or run the counter to it". Even the old signet of might was counterable, but I really don't think there's any question it was overpowered beyond belief.
i guess i just feel like with so many skills and so many combinations, there must be a viable counter to any 'uber-build' out there... I can't believe that with so so many different skills, anyone could truly come up with an end-all be-all build... Having a counter to an overpowered build doesn't make it balanced, as the game will quickly become "run this build or run the counter to it". Even the old signet of might was counterable, but I really don't think there's any question it was overpowered beyond belief.
Maverick2201
alright... I guess I have always been wrong when I thought the definition of balance was a counter (and by counter, i don't just mean defense). If someone runs something devastating, should you not run something equally as devastating right back? Look at some of the most powerful bosses in PvE... do we ask ANet to make them weaker? No (well some do)... we figure out ways to counter them to tip the balance in our favor.
Isn't that what strategy is all about?? Tipping the strategic balance in your own favor?
Isn't that what strategy is all about?? Tipping the strategic balance in your own favor?
- Tain -
Having something ridiculously strong isn't balanced just because it has a counter, no.
And as for PvE bosses... they do double damage just to make them something special, different from normal enemies in the same area. Bosses are supposed to be more powerful, they're intentionally overpowered. Not much in PvE is very balanced, but it's very easy to counter AI since it's always the same.
And as for PvE bosses... they do double damage just to make them something special, different from normal enemies in the same area. Bosses are supposed to be more powerful, they're intentionally overpowered. Not much in PvE is very balanced, but it's very easy to counter AI since it's always the same.
explodemyheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
If someone runs something devastating, should you not run something equally as devastating right back? Look at some of the most powerful bosses in PvE... do we ask ANet to make them weaker? No (well some do)... we figure out ways to counter them to tip the balance in our favor.
You're seriously trying to compare bosses in PvE to real people playing in PvP?
A boss can do a lot of damage but they are never overpowered. You can argue that with me all you want, but they're not. Do you know why? Because you're a person. With a brain, presumably. And because the AI has static skill bars. You have the option to think and you have the advantage of knowing their skill bar. These two things combined allow you to come up with a solution to them steamrolling your team so you can, in fact, steamroll them instead. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
PvP is not at all the same thing. Every time you enter into a PvP match, who you're playing against is a gamble. You cannot counter everything, so you have to pick and choose what you will counter. If you chose incorrectly, you could lose. The solution to that, other than skill balancing, is pretty much as you say. Choose to run some overpowered build that can roll over almost anything. Except... that's not how this game is meant to be played. Thank god Anet recognizes that and thank god you and the people in your camp aren't the ones in charge of such decisions.
A boss can do a lot of damage but they are never overpowered. You can argue that with me all you want, but they're not. Do you know why? Because you're a person. With a brain, presumably. And because the AI has static skill bars. You have the option to think and you have the advantage of knowing their skill bar. These two things combined allow you to come up with a solution to them steamrolling your team so you can, in fact, steamroll them instead. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
PvP is not at all the same thing. Every time you enter into a PvP match, who you're playing against is a gamble. You cannot counter everything, so you have to pick and choose what you will counter. If you chose incorrectly, you could lose. The solution to that, other than skill balancing, is pretty much as you say. Choose to run some overpowered build that can roll over almost anything. Except... that's not how this game is meant to be played. Thank god Anet recognizes that and thank god you and the people in your camp aren't the ones in charge of such decisions.
Maverick2201
Alright.. well.. I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you. I feel like if you really want to demonstrate your uber-skills in a video game to other people, FPS's are the way to go for multiplayer.
To each their own - I just wish ANet would stop screwing with my side of the game because certain builds are 'overpowered' on your side of the game.
What I have yet to see, however, is someone coming on to a forum to complain about their own build being overpowered. I can't imagine everyone on these forums runs a 'balanced' build just out of their own pure gaming moral standards since who doesn't want to tip the balance in their favor?
I think people who defend skill nerfs only do so when the nerf in question does not affect a skill they use with any frequency.
Much like how I didn't care about all these nerfs to skills used by 55 monks until I decided I wanted to build one -- suddenly the nerfs became a big deal. Once the nerf stick finds the builds you all use, I'm sure your sentiment will be slightly different.
Of course, I'm sure I'll be told that all the builds you all use are perfectly balanced and fair and not overpowered and therefore will not/should not be nerfed ever. Assuming of course that the builds you all run are fairly effective in PvP (if they're not, why are you using it), the only reason yours hasn't been nerfed yet is because there aren't enough people running it yet.
To each their own - I just wish ANet would stop screwing with my side of the game because certain builds are 'overpowered' on your side of the game.
What I have yet to see, however, is someone coming on to a forum to complain about their own build being overpowered. I can't imagine everyone on these forums runs a 'balanced' build just out of their own pure gaming moral standards since who doesn't want to tip the balance in their favor?
I think people who defend skill nerfs only do so when the nerf in question does not affect a skill they use with any frequency.
Much like how I didn't care about all these nerfs to skills used by 55 monks until I decided I wanted to build one -- suddenly the nerfs became a big deal. Once the nerf stick finds the builds you all use, I'm sure your sentiment will be slightly different.
Of course, I'm sure I'll be told that all the builds you all use are perfectly balanced and fair and not overpowered and therefore will not/should not be nerfed ever. Assuming of course that the builds you all run are fairly effective in PvP (if they're not, why are you using it), the only reason yours hasn't been nerfed yet is because there aren't enough people running it yet.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
They provided far too much offensive punch for a template that, essentially, took absolutely no skill at all to play.
Sounds like toucher.
explodemyheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick2201
I think people who defend skill nerfs only do so when the nerf in question does not affect a skill they use with any frequency.
Much like how I didn't care about all these nerfs to skills used by 55 monks until I decided I wanted to build one -- suddenly the nerfs became a big deal. Once the nerf stick finds the builds you all use, I'm sure your sentiment will be slightly different. I've been playing the game for 32 months, the majority of which has been spent in PvE. I have a character of every profession. The "nerf bat" has found my "regular" PvE builds more times than I can count, some of them recently. And you know what? I can still use those skills efficiently in PvE! And any of the skills that may have been nerfed to the point where I didn't feel like using them anymore, I have always found a good alternative. In some cases, something that worked better.
Arkantos
QQ in one of the other update threads please.
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