Update Friday, March 21 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

22 Mar 2008 at 05:46 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Counterable is not the same as balanced.

But counterable is all we're getting with every nerf/buff. Some skills are nerfed, others buffed, the current flavour of the month goes down, and still there is no stable game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You cannot afford to bring hard counters to every gimmick or overpowered combination because it gimps you against everything else. You don't have the bar space, and you don't know what you're going up against.

In a way that's always felt like it's just the way PvP is to me. Maybe it was truly balanced way way back before I played?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Every gimmick is counterable. Their power is in hoping the opponent does not have the specific counter necessary for that gimmick. Supporting overpowered builds and hard counters turns the game into rock-paper-scissors which is even more retarded.

But gimmicks keep coming up, again and again, so all we have basically is rock-paper-scissors but with the order being switched around every now and then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

In conclusion, unless you PvP, you don't get to talk about PvP balance. Continuing to derail with false, noncontributing opinions like 'omg just lern 2 counter' and trolling will result in the thread being locked and bans going out.

I do PvP, so I get to talk about PvP balance

(I just tend to take the PvE side these days because, well, I'm in a more PvE-ish mood and because lately PvP doesn't feel very fun.) Player vs Player is one of my favourite game types... in other games. In shooters. In RTS games. In other RPGs that don't suffer from the issues of Guild Wars.

Anyways... if the game ever reached a point of real balance (read: where player skill is more important than who has what build, something that currently can only really be simulated by two identical builds facing off as matters stand now) I'd probably find PvP fun again. But as matters stand now, we're playing Build Wars

But I'm just rambling aimlessly at this point, so for now I'll say that I guess skill will have to be reserved for shooters and Dawn of War. *tabs back into Call of Duty 4*

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

22 Mar 2008 at 05:58 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Anyways... if the game ever reached a point of real balance (read: where player skill is more important than who has what build, something that currently can only really be simulated by two identical builds facing off as matters stand now) I'd probably find PvP fun again. But as matters stand now, we're playing Build Wars

Unfortunately very true.

Although you put DoW before SC as an RTS taking skill, which makes me sad.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

22 Mar 2008 at 06:04 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Although you put DoW before SC as an RTS taking skill, which makes me sad.

I didn't mention SC at all, so I never actually placed DoW before it. If you like Rock-Paper-Scissors, that is entirely your choice and I will not dispute it.

Since we cannot resolve this, as I know from other threads, we can agree to disagree on which is better, just like RPG fans and JnRPG fans can agree to disagree on whether or not Final Fantasy is an RPG.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

22 Mar 2008 at 06:07 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I didn't mention SC at all, so I never actually placed DoW before it. If you like Rock-Paper-Scissors, that is entirely your choice and I will not dispute it.

Since we cannot resolve this, as I know from other threads, we can agree to disagree on which is better, just like RPG fans and JnRPG fans can agree to disagree on whether or not Final Fantasy is an RPG.

Surely.

Good bug fix, anyway.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

22 Mar 2008 at 07:34 - 45

Whoever the hell thinks that 800 damage a second is counterable is out of their RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing minds and needs to get their eyes checked.

You can't just 'counter' this, you'd need so much party defense it'd be unimaginable.

Next player to say 'just counter it' with regards to the nerf of this combo should get temp-ban for idiocy imo.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

22 Mar 2008 at 07:35 - 46

Wow. A skill is BUGGED a people still complain as if a.net was out to get them. GTFO of GW (PvE AND PvP, I don't care which side you play, if you think this was a dumb nerf by mean ol' a.net trying to ruin your fun, you are a moron).

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

22 Mar 2008 at 07:37 - 47

Now I want to know how many people get permanently banned. Have to wait for next week. But that is ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

The bold part added by my for absolute truth.

May be true, but a bug is a bug.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

22 Mar 2008 at 07:52 - 48

Wasn't actually talking about the bug, but whatever :P

*pats Kashrlyyk on the head and wanders off*

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

22 Mar 2008 at 08:06 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Wasn't actually talking about the bug, but whatever :P

*pats Kashrlyyk on the head and wanders off*

You were not talking about ignoring counters to a build that was bugged?

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

22 Mar 2008 at 08:13 - 50

On a different note, is any else noticing skill cancelling due to movement seems a lot more sensitive now? I've been accidentally cancelling 2c+ spells from the slightest touch of a movement key quite a lot recently.

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

22 Mar 2008 at 10:38 - 51

i don't care
as long as they don't do stupid things to skills that would affect PvP AND PvE at the same time
i'm still waiting for them to make [skill]wastrel's collapse[/skill] a good elite skill *hint hint*

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

22 Mar 2008 at 12:17 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

You were not talking about ignoring counters to a build that was bugged?

read the topic

please?

just because something has a counter doesn't make it balanced, I'll quote David Holtzman (to the best of my memory) in that, what if there was a skill called Signet of Instawin (lol Signet of Might), and the counter was you had to solve complex mathematical equations while juggling and balancing yourself on top of the wing of a flying Boeing 747. It has a counter, but its not a very likely one, if anything it just becomes a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

We don't want RPS, because then it becomes Build Wars. We want RRR, because then the game is way more balanced and fair, with maybe a few alterations to each build that aren't overpowered.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 Mar 2008 at 12:29 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

There's a bunch of other stuff that got nerfed before I got to try it. Like this build.

I missed the Monster Thievery bug, how much I wanted to be a Drake....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

You were not talking about ignoring counters to a build that was bugged?

Are you stupid?
5k AoE damage (I think, anyway) counterable?
Even PvE enemies buffed up to the shit (minus PSpirit) don't do that sort of damage.
Plus counters doesn't = balanced.

Splitisoda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

STALKER!

Not in One

N/A

22 Mar 2008 at 13:29 - 54

*sigh*
I'm still waiting to see hope of a PvE balance, or bug fix.

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

22 Mar 2008 at 13:45 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

*sigh*
I'm still waiting to see hope of a PvE balance, or bug fix.

March 20th
#Fixed a bug that caused the map marker on the reward NPC to not appear when the Clear the Chamber quest completed in the Underworld.

March 13th
# Fixed a spawn bug that prevented bosses in the Domain of Anguish from appearing if everyone in a party had already completed the Mallyx the Unyielding quest.
# Fixed a bug in Underworld that sometimes prevented mission failure if a Reaper died too quickly after spawning.
# Fixed a bug that would sometimes allow Necromancers to cast Putrid Flesh and Feast for the Dead while having no living minions for the spell to target.
# Fixed a bug in the Tower of Strength quest within the Fissure of Woe that sometimes caused the Tower Mage to become stuck and never reach the tower.
# Fixed a bug in the Dajkah Inlet challenge mission that could cause teams to crash after a long time spent in the mission.
# Fixed a bug that caused some treasure chests to not work if more than one player attempted to open the chest at the same time.
# Fixed a bug in the Moa'vu'Kaal, Awakened quest in Nightfall that caused the starting NPC to sometimes not display a quest marker even though the quest was available.
# Fixed a bug that affected various sign posts and redirectors in the Eye of the North, Sifhalla, Olafstead, and Gunner's Hold

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

22 Mar 2008 at 13:49 - 56

It's possible splitisoda was referring to something like Ursan's and consumables.
Seems like topics about Ursan's come up a lot. I remember someone asking if any guilds actually do high end areas without Ursan's anymore, because it seems like it's everywhere.
Makes the game boring.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 Mar 2008 at 19:15 - 57

Quote:

Now I want to know how many people get permanently banned. Have to wait for next week. But that is ok.

Highly doubt anyone is going to get banned for this. Nobody got banned for exploiting the signet of might (?) bug, which killed anything in 10 seconds.

Quote:

It's possible splitisoda was referring to something like Ursan's and consumables.

He was also talking about game bugs, which JR was referring to.

Quote:

And u called me ignorant, tut tut.

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

pigdestroyer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Los Chavos Del [ocho]

W/

22 Mar 2008 at 19:53 - 58

its not like skill balances take too much work, so dont be retarded with the asumption that they would have added content if it wasnt for them. I dont see the point of crying over this BUG FIX, the skills werent supposed to work that way.

With all the pvp "skill nerfs" I still dont have any trouble getting through any pve missions dungeons etc. Its as easy as always, if you have any trouble to get through pve there are chances that you're a terrible player, and you should stop playing.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

22 Mar 2008 at 20:45 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

Theres no gain, a perfectly balanced pvp wont sell 5 million more copies, whats teh point except pissing off 4.9million players?

StarCraft has sold 9.5 million copies

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starcraft

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

Changing skills does nothing to enhance pve, it may balance pvp but I always question the reasoning of catering to the minority of the playerbase pvp players at the expense of the majority - pve players. Why?

Why do tards exist? This was an entire game fix. I could have used this build to farm all of pve in about 2 seconds. It was above and beyond overpowered or inbalanced. It was BROKEN.

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

22 Mar 2008 at 20:56 - 60

Zahr Dalsk adds: "PvPers ignore the numerous counters to the build in question, because it's easier to whine."

I respond with: "May be true, but a bug is a bug." It may be true that there are counters, but that doesn´t change the fact the skills were bugged.

And then the shit hit the fan.

So I missunderstood that you are talking about a general treatment of skill changes and not about the bugfixes right now??

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

22 Mar 2008 at 21:12 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

Your realize the only way to truely balance PVP is to make it red vs blue. Which means the only difference between both sides is color where all the skills and weapons are the same on each side. Thats true PVP balance, and I doubt any of you want it, if you did youd be playing real pvp games - FPS's. What you pvp players really want is an advantage disguised as balance. This type of balance and qq'ing will go on forever because there will always be a loser who wants the skills changed so he can win. It will never work.

Because Terran = Protoss = Zerg right?

Guild Wars is a little balanced right now, in the perspective of GvG, until another entirely imbalanced build comes out. In the current status quo, it's actually not so bad, especially with Turret Rangers, A/Ds, Mantra of Concentration (really, those stand E/Me BSurges were retarded) and Blood Spike nerfed.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

22 Mar 2008 at 21:47 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

Your realize the only way to truely balance PVP is to make it red vs blue. Which means the only difference between both sides is color where all the skills and weapons are the same on each side. Thats true PVP balance, and I doubt any of you want it, if you did youd be playing real pvp games - FPS's. What you pvp players really want is an advantage disguised as balance. This type of balance and qq'ing will go on forever because there will always be a loser who wants the skills changed so he can win. It will never work.

I guess you were first in the line when ignorance had sale.

Starcraft is perfect exampale of ballance which is NOT based on equality of sides. It works, it its fun, noone QQs.

Tons of fighter games have totally unequal sides yet they are ballanced.

So yeah, it works. It works much better than "equal sides".

---

Btw: great irony is that most (practically all) PvPers WANT GWs to be red vs blue type of game: they love to play "ballanced gvg" teambuild, whatever that is.

Yet you are totally unaware of that. What you present as analysis of pvper QQing is ... funny ... it would more describe PvEr QQing.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

23 Mar 2008 at 01:28 - 63

A needed quick fix to stop an exploit.

There is no place for complains here.

Stockholm

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Censored

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 01:31 - 64

Only goes to show how rushed nerfs and buffs are, no real thought is put in to it.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

23 Mar 2008 at 01:38 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

I'm sorry to go sort of off-topic, but...

You know these forums have come to their worst when a thread about a bug fix turns into a PvE vs PvP thread.

Quoted for freakin' truth.

I want to kill half the people who post here sometimes. Thank god the voice of reason still exists with a couple members (Malice).

Edit: And no stockholm, goes to show you that with a game with over 1000 skills, some combinations of skills (there are literally trillions) are just inconcievable. You think a.net saw the 55 build coming?

Stockholm

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Censored

R/

23 Mar 2008 at 01:46 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

You think a.net saw the 55 build coming?

Was the 55 not the brain child of one of the dev's?

Taurucis

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The edge of reason

I don't play any more.

W/E

23 Mar 2008 at 01:49 - 67

Alright guys, I'm not sure if I need to reboot or anything, but it seems that since the update, my GW crashes shortly after loading. This is the third time so far... anyone else getting crashes?

Edit: Never mind, it was on my end, I just needed to reboot...

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

23 Mar 2008 at 02:05 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Only goes to show how rushed nerfs and buffs are, no real thought is put in to it.

And I suppose you did Armchair Izzy?

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

23 Mar 2008 at 02:12 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There should be an official PvE vs PvP thread TBH. These forums have become incredibly boring recently.

QFT... like a gathering of the trolls so they have a place to QQ about nerfs and put the blame on each other without bothering the rest.

I've overcome AoE, SR, loot scaling... I think I can live without another skill even though I use it (Angorodon's Gaze). It's called adapting. Both PvE and PvP need to do it.

And GJ on fixing the Dark Aura bug fast. Just a few thousand more to go :P. Although they've been fixing a lotta bugs these days...

RhanoctJocosa

Legendary Korean

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

W/

23 Mar 2008 at 03:24 - 70

Lol, because SR was that much of a big deal.