My Thread For All Hero Paragon Related Discussion/Questions!

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

E/

I have many questions about making a decent build for my Paragon hero, and didn't want to make a new thread for each question, so I'll be putting all the questions in here, and hopefully people can help me out


First question:

I have started making my new Paragon's build and so far it has around 3/8 skills in it. I'm using the following attributes:

Leadership - 16 (12+1+3)
Spear Mastery - 9
Command - 9 (For my shield, plus I feel Command is better than Motivation)

First of all I wasn't too sure whether to put ANY point into SM, as this Paragon will be used to buff the skills of my party & to reduce damage etc. Do you think SM is important in this case, and if so, how many SM skills would you recommend having in the build?


Second Question:

I'm finding it really difficult to chooes between a decent Elite skill for my Paragon. I don't particularly want to give him a SM elite, as he's not there to be a massive damage dealer, he's there to support the rest of the party. I looked through the Elite skills and not a single one really appealed to me. What do you guys think would be a decent Elite skill choice for this Para?

Paragon Skills - http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_paragon_skills


Just so you know what my team lineup is going to be, just incase this makes any difference to the build, it is:

Me - Fire Ele
Acolyte Sousuke - SF Ele
Master Of Whispers - MM/Bomber
General Morgahn - Paragon
Mhenlo - Healer
Lina - Protection
Herta - Earth
Zho - Interrupt
Or instead of Zho, either Cynn or Devona (which would you suggest? )


Third Question:

Do you think it'd be better to bring two hero SF ele's + myself (who is also a SF ele) instead of one hero SF ele plus a MM/Bomber? I only ask because with three SF ele's, we will be able to maintain burning on enemies, therefore affectively keeping [skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] up all the time.

Captain Miken

Captain Miken

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2008

I suggest leaving the job of Paragon to a person who can use the IMBA PvE skills.


Just my $0.02.

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Miken
I suggest leaving the job of Paragon to a person who can use the IMBA PvE skills.


Just my $0.02. The thing is though, where am I gonna find a Paragon who will accompany me all the time through boring little side quests and stuff like that? I'm a quest freak, making sure I do each & every little quest, and to have to go looking for a Paragon player every time I wanna do a quest, would be a bit of a hassle.

Do you not think hero Para's are up to the job?

Antithesis

Antithesis

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The build you choose comes down to whether or not you plan to play in NM or HM. As stated ad infinitum, anything works in NM, your build is put to the test in HM.

Here's the fast-track to a good Paragon build -

10 to 12 in Leadership is all you need - shouts = energy.
12 to 14 in Spear Mastery is ideal - a Paragon IS a DPS character who can offer insane protection to the team with a couple of shouts alongside heavy-hitting attacks. Don't gimp your build, run Spear Mastery.
9+ in Command or Motivation - mostly to meet the shield req, you'll generally end up taking only one or two skills from either line.

Because you're running a party full of squishies and looking for synergy with SF, here's roughly what i'd do -

[skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Vicious Attack[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]"Go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill][skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill][skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

Use They're on Fire to maintain Aggressive Refrain between mobs. Optionally, slot in Spear of Lightning for either GFTE or NS.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

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Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

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Why do I get the distinct feeling that the OP is under the impression that casters are the best damage dealers?

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Sphincter Says [What]

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Because 3 x SF pwns NM. It's only when we graduate to HM that we know better

Coloneh

Coloneh

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Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

also heros cant run physicals very well anyways. espically not melee.

anyways, i cant offer to much insight on the actual build, I dont know a whole lot about paragon skills, but it does seem like you are going about the class wrong. first, they are a DPS machine and it only takes aggresive refrain and an attack skill or two to put them on par with a standard warrior. second, dont worry to much about that shield, at least dont specc into an attribute just for the shield, the 8 armor from not meeting an attribute is not as bad as wasting points.

and for an elite?... all I know is that im in love with focused anger. Empathic Removal also looks like it would be quite useful. maybe even RC

As for the eles, i dont think i would run 3 SFs or even 1. I would bring MB/RI eles, they might do slightly less damage in a group, but they can easily put 8 points into another attribute for utility like wards, protection, blinds, KD, Hexes, Heals, Spirits, ect. your eles can do basically anything and keep the pressure high at the same time and the burning duration is still pretty good, maybe throw in mark of rodgort.

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Why do I get the distinct feeling that the OP is under the impression that casters are the best damage dealers?
I don't think they're the best damage dealers at all. I just think that in PvE when you have around 20 enemies coming at you from all different directions, AoE casters should be able to handle the situation a lot better than a warrior who will just spend time killing one thing, then move on to another, kill it & so on. With elementalists, they can do damage to all 20 enemies at once, if they're all bunched together, the warrior can only target one or two enemies at once. They can also bring utilities, whereas I'm not going to waste a hero slot on a warrior & give him utility skills seeing as AI melee are so crap.

Quote: Originally Posted by Antithesis Because 3 x SF pwns NM. It's only when we graduate to HM that we know better Would this idea not work in HM then? I'm nearly finished GWEN & once that's done I'll be switching to HM permanently as I've finished all the other campaigns etc in NM. If not, why wouldn't it work? Also Antithesis, AR gives the para cracked armor for 20 seconds, effectively giving him caster's armor instead of Paragon's. Is this not a problem?


Quote: Well if you have 20 enemies coming at you you need to learn to pull. Everything in HM has an insane AL so fire doesn't do all that much. Armor ignoring damage (includes +damage) = win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
also heros cant run physicals very well anyways. espically not melee.

anyways, i cant offer to much insight on the actual build, I dont know a whole lot about paragon skills, but it does seem like you are going about the class wrong. first, they are a DPS machine and it only takes aggresive refrain and an attack skill or two to put them on par with a standard warrior. second, dont worry to much about that shield, at least dont specc into an attribute just for the shield, the 8 armor from not meeting an attribute is not as bad as wasting points.

and for an elite?... all I know is that im in love with focused anger. Empathic Removal also looks like it would be quite useful. maybe even RC

As for the eles, i dont think i would run 3 SFs or even 1. I would bring MB/RI eles, they might do slightly less damage in a group, but they can easily put 8 points into another attribute for utility like wards, protection, blinds, KD, Hexes, Heals, Spirits, ect. your eles can do basically anything and keep the pressure high at the same time and the burning duration is still pretty good, maybe throw in mark of rodgort.
That sounds like a good idea, I'll try that out, thanks


And finally guys, do you think it'd be better to use 2 SF ele's + the paragon as my heroes or 1 SF ele, the paragon + a MM?

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by whufc89
I don't think they're the best damage dealers at all. I just think that in PvE when you have around 20 enemies coming at you from all different directions, AoE casters should be able to handle the situation a lot better than a warrior who will just spend time killing one thing, then move on to another, kill it & so on. With elementalists, they can do damage to all 20 enemies at once, if they're all bunched together, the warrior can only target one or two enemies at once. They can also bring utilities, whereas I'm not going to waste a hero slot on a warrior & give him utility skills seeing as AI melee are so crap.
Would this idea not work in HM then? I'm nearly finished GWEN & once that's done I'll be switching to HM permanently as I've finished all the other campaigns etc in NM. If not, why wouldn't it work? Also Antithesis, AR gives the para cracked armor for 20 seconds, effectively giving him caster's armor instead of Paragon's. Is this not a problem? SF is nice if you're running TOF, but damage-wise fire isn't all that good for reasons previously mentioned.

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

Paragons are so broken because of their ability to both play a support role and an offensive role quite comfortably, while other classes would have to compromise on one front. You should never run low spear mastery as a pure support paragon is inferior to caster support templates. Spear mastery should be one of your highest attributes on a paragon.

As for elite skills; Song of Restoration, Defensive Anthem and Cruel spear should create the foundation which you should build around.

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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Well I've made my attempt at a synergizing Paragon build to go with the 3 SF ele's on my team. Let me know what you think of it:

[skill]defensive anthem[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill] [skill]Burning Refrain[/skill] [skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] [skill]blazing finale[/skill] [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] [skill]signet of return[/skill]


I'm not sure how the attributes should be split though & which attributes to use runes for

This is most probably NOT going to be my final build, as I'm fairly sure that it can be improved upon, but it's just a rough copy to see what you guys think of it. The reasoning for each skill is as follows:

DA - Self Explanatory

Spear Skills - Spammable Attacks

Burning Refrain - To Fuel 'They're On Fire'

They're On Fire - To Synergize With The SF Ele's & Keep My Team Alive

Blazing Finale - See Burning Refrain

Stand Your Ground - Seeing as most of my team are casters, we probably won't be moving at all during a fight, so I figured this would be an excellent skill to use.

I was going to use [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] And [skill]anthem of flame[/skill] but like I said above, most (not ALL) of my team will be casters so it's probably a waste of a skill slot.

Antithesis

Antithesis

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BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

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Heroes are crap at Burning Refrain and Blazing Finale.

Go for the Eyes! is energy management for the Paragon that synergises well with Vicious Attack. Both are optional.

Stand Your Ground! and Defensive Anthem on the same bar will probably cause energy management issues.
SYG is meh as H/H will kite, Never Surrender isn't great either but can dig you out of the poo when you need it.

Aggressive Refrain should be taken - Cracked Armor means nothing on a Paragon as it's rarely targeted and is always the last one standing in any battle. Once you get used to the Para, you'll nail this to your bar.

SF works in some areas in HM, but it's not devastating like it is in NM. Unconditional armour ignoring damage is the way to go for HM.

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Heroes are crap at Burning Refrain and Blazing Finale.

Go for the Eyes! is energy management for the Paragon that synergises well with Vicious Attack. Both are optional.

Stand Your Ground! and Defensive Anthem on the same bar will probably cause energy management issues.
SYG is meh as H/H will kite, Never Surrender isn't great either but can dig you out of the poo when you need it.

Aggressive Refrain should be taken - Cracked Armor means nothing on a Paragon as it's rarely targeted and is always the last one standing in any battle. Once you get used to the Para, you'll nail this to your bar.

SF works in some areas in HM, but it's not devastating like it is in NM. Unconditional armour ignoring damage is the way to go for HM. OK gimme 5 mins or so and I'll post my updated build, thanks

What do you think of [skill]Glowing Signet[/skill] though for E-Management?

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

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Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

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Leadership is all the E-Management a Paragon needs.

Anyone that disagrees is wrong

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Sphincter Says [What]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by whufc89
What do you think of [skill]Glowing Signet[/skill] though for E-Management? Completely unnecessary.

To answer your question - 3 x SF + ToF Paragon has greater synergy and will tear through most of NM. An MM is often the last one to enter the fight when they should be the first (to setup your meatshield).

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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OK here's my updated build. Probably still not perfect but how does it look?

[skill]defensive anthem[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]vicious attack[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill] [skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]anthem of flame[/skill] [skill]signet of return[/skill]

I'm just not sure how to spread out the attributes now.

Command can stay at 9, but I want to have high Leadership & Spear Mastery really, for ToF & the attack skills. I mean, the whole point of this build really is to synergize with the SF ele's, so I want to have Leadership as high as I can really don't I, so that the team takes as little damage from burning foes as possible?

Also, do shouts, chants & echos stack? Just wondering because Morgahn may cast the most important shout & then cancel it out straight away with a different shout which would equal bad times

Washi

Washi

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Join Date: May 2007

Why do you put Anthem of Flame on him? The only party member that uses attack skills is that paragon, and one of his attacks causes burning anyway. Unless you take zho as well but still not enough phisicals to make it worth a skill slot IMO.

Go for the eyes probably triggers on minions so it could be worth it.

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
Why do you put Anthem of Flame on him? The only party member that uses attack skills is that paragon, and one of his attacks causes burning anyway. Unless you take zho as well but still not enough phisicals to make it worth a skill slot IMO.

Go for the eyes probably triggers on minions so it could be worth it. I've taken it out now, thanks for the advice. Also, I'm not sure about GFTE, I mean if it's just the Paragon + possibly Zho using attack skills is it worth bringing?

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Sphincter Says [What]

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Again, GFTE's is energy management. Drop it for another attack if energy is not a problem.

Chants, Anthems, Refrains and Echos do stack.

Leadership 14 (12+1+1)
Spear 12 (11+1)
Rest in Command (should be 9-ish)

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

UK

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Again, GFTE's is energy management. Drop it for another attack if energy is not a problem.

Chants, Anthems, Refrains and Echos do stack.

Leadership 14 (12+1+1)
Spear 12 (11+1)
Rest in Command (should be 9-ish) Thank you very much

Do you think the build above is fine?

EDIT: Can't do those attributes, not enough att points. Any other suggestion?

Washi

Washi

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Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by whufc89
Also, I'm not sure about GFTE, I mean if it's just the Paragon + possibly Zho using attack skills is it worth bringing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
Go for the eyes probably triggers on minions so it could be worth it. About the attributes, I would go with 12 leadership, 9 command and rest in spear, but if you really want 14 leadership, try getting req 7 al 15 shield.

There isn't really much to think about, leadership 12 or 14, command 7 or 9 depends what shield you have and rest in spear.

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washi
try getting req 7 al 15 shield. Good idea, I might actually do that. The 15 AL instead of 16 is hardly going to make any difference at all right? Just double checking because I don't want to do it if he'll be far more susceptible to dying because of it.

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Or make it 14(11+2+1) for Leadership, 12(11+1) for Spear, 9(8+1) for Command. A Major Rune is acceptable on a Paragon.

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Or make it 14(11+2+1) for Leadership, 12(11+1) for Spear, 9(8+1) for Command. A Major Rune is acceptable on a Paragon. I can't man, look I have no points left:



EDIT: Oh I can, I didn't realise you edited your post

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

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I need one final skill for my paragon & was wondering which would be best to take out of the following skills:

[skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill] Vs [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] Vs [skill]glowing signet[/skill] Vs [skill]anthem of flame[/skill] Vs [skill]Burning Refrain[/skill] Vs [skill]Blazing Finale[/skill]

I was thinking SYG as most of my party will consist of casters + the paragon & an interrupt ranger, which all don't need to move in order to attack.

Never Surrender would also be a decent choice, but it's basically a cr*ppy heal, which the monks should be doing anyway right? Also, GS may be a decent choice as it's good energy management, but people have said Leadership is all the energy management a Paragon needs so...

I dunno, what do you think?

Richardt

Richardt

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"Never Surrender" I noticed heroes use pretty well. But at 9 Command it's only +3 or 4 regen, which isn't much. You could bring it's analog "Never Giveup" I think it's called (I don't often roll with Command skills-Mot. FTW)-it basically does the same thing, but instead of health it's energy.

SYG isn't very good with heroes (as has been mentioned already)-heroes don't grasp the concept of "Standing Still" very well-even if you flag them.

I would recommend Hexbreaker Aria-removes hexes from your casters and it's an adrenaline shout, so it's "free" energy for your para.

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

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How about going P/W & speccing into Tactics so I can bring something like [skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill] or [skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] or both?

Would that be better than speccing into Command for [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] + [skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill] seeing as hardly any of my team will be using attack skills & NS is such a bad heal?

By the way, Shields Up has a different effect now to what it shows in the icon, just incase you didn't know

Richardt

Richardt

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If you're bringing a MM, GFtE will affect the minions-so it not only benefits your para.

Speccing Tatics for Shields Up is a viable option only if you're fighting a lot of ranged foes-like the spider's in Arachni's. Otherwise it's kinda meh. And WY! has pretty much been nerfed into uselessness now

Protectors Defense I believe gives a 75% block rate for nearby allies-which is a good thing, but really your para hero will need andrenal shouts to keep up energy-so I would just stay in Command so your minions have a better crit chance.

NS isn't bad-it's just a bit on the weak side. It'll take the pressure off your healers if you get a massive spike.

whufc89

whufc89

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Join Date: Dec 2007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardt
If you're bringing a MM, GFtE will affect the minions-so it not only benefits your para.

Speccing Tatics for Shields Up is a viable option only if you're fighting a lot of ranged foes-like the spider's in Arachni's. Otherwise it's kinda meh. And WY! has pretty much been nerfed into uselessness now

Protectors Defense I believe gives a 75% block rate for nearby allies-which is a good thing, but really your para hero will need andrenal shouts to keep up energy-so I would just stay in Command so your minions have a better crit chance.

NS isn't bad-it's just a bit on the weak side. It'll take the pressure off your healers if you get a massive spike. I'm not actually running a MM anymore, I'm running 2 SF heros plus this Para, to work alongside They're On Fire.

Protectors Defense also requires that the user of it stands still otherwise it ends, and you said AI like to kite a lot, so wouldn't it be /fail?

Richardt

Richardt

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If it requires people to stand still then yeah it's fail for heroes-I don't often dabble in tatics so my knowledge isn't 100%

If you're running 2 SF's and the ToF tank, I would prolly be inclined to go with NS out of the skills you posted.

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Sphincter Says [What]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardt
"Never Surrender" I noticed heroes use pretty well. But at 9 Command it's only +3 or 4 regen, which isn't much. You could bring it's analog "Never Giveup" I think it's called (I don't often roll with Command skills-Mot. FTW)-it basically does the same thing, but instead of health it's energy.

I would recommend Hexbreaker Aria-removes hexes from your casters and it's an adrenaline shout, so it's "free" energy for your para. All good ideas to help out your Monks, NS can be helpful when you're under pressure, HB is ok, NG is meh. Try each of these out and see how you go.

I personally don't use the P/W Tactics builds as I run Paragons with my physicals (they have PvE shouts), but whatever tickles your pickle.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

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I'd keep Leadership at 14, your skill bar is quite energy intensive and GftE is the only one netting energy for your gon. Also get a Minor Spear Mastery rune.

Coloneh

Coloneh

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Join Date: Nov 2006

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I dont know if anyone cares or not, but gftw does trigger on minions and minions can get critical hits. however their criticals only do the maximum of their damage range, no bonus like a player gets.

whufc89

whufc89

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
I dont know if anyone cares or not, but gftw does trigger on minions and minions can get critical hits. however their criticals only do the maximum of their damage range, no bonus like a player gets. That's actually just answered the question I was about to ask then

I knew that GftE triggered the extra critical chance on minions aswell, but was just wondering whether it'd be worth it to bring along, seeing as minions do pretty minimal damage as it is (that is until they blow up of course )

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

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You need GftE because it's the only skill on your paragon's bar that provides energy gain when used.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

OK!

My para-related question is what combo of two poara heroes have the best synergy with an Assassin?

thx.

~Super Igor ~

Antithesis

Antithesis

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Sphincter Says [What]

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Possibly a Motivation Paragon with Song of Restoration, Chorus of Restoration and Finale of Restoration on the bar. If you're running Save Yourselves! (you should if running with 2 Paragons) you'll trigger some nice healing on the FoR target. CoR is to help you out as it'll trigger when you hit SY.

[skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Finale of Restoration[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Chorus of Restoration[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Wild Throw[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

Leadership: 12, Spear Mastery: 11, Motivation: 13
Template code: OQOk8El6piuk7WK26WHmCmvYRm8G


For the other one, a Command Paragon with Defensive Anthem to protect your backline, Go for the Eyes will trigger Finale of Restoration and help with your e-management. Drop Anthem of Envy for [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] for additional defense.

[skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Vicious Attack[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Envy[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

Leadership: 12, Spear Mastery: 12, Command: 12
Template code: OQCjUqmLqOu7JsCOIbhD/XY5NA

Mr. Undisclosed

Mr. Undisclosed

I phail

Join Date: Mar 2007

Phailville

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Aggressive Refrain should be taken - Cracked Armor means nothing on a Paragon as it's rarely targeted and is always the last one standing in any battle. Once you get used to the Para, you'll nail this to your bar.
Also note you should have centurions everywhere and you'll have a shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whufc89
How about going P/W & speccing into Tactics so I can bring something like [skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill] or [skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] or both? Take note that the description of watch yourself is outdated thus the skill is /fail

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

Actually I could use those paras on mi sin.

~Super Igor ~