I've seen a lot of suggestions popping up saying to use 2-3 [skill=text]Searing Flames[/skill] Elementalist heroes. Here's my question: What is the point of using SF?
A while ago, I tested 3 SF Eles against the Master of Damage who were fully suited out with energy management and damage, as well as 3 Dual Attune Rodgort's Eles on him with 1-2 utility skills each. As expected, the SF heroes did more damage, but only by ~10 DPS and they still managed to run out of energy quickly. I know that SF has a large AoE, but is it really worth bringing it considering how much utility/energy it sacrifices?
While I'm on the topic of Fire Ele Heroes: Dual Attune or Mind Blast? Whenever I tried out Mind Blast on my hero(es), they never spam it as needed and manage to run out of energy half way through a fight, especially with Rodgort's or some other energy-draining spell that they would use right away.
EDIT: Sorry for the confusion, but I meant when using an Elementalist in Hard Mode. That, and having to go /Me for energy management doesn't really fit into my definition of flexible >_<.
Why use SF on heroes?
Destromath
xPIMPx
I used to run 3 SF all the time when Nightfall came out and they never had any e-management problems. Now im often running 3 N/RT though im experimenting with R/P SPEAR + PETS FTW
Gift3d
Hero + 15 energy, spammable skill = fail.
There is no discussion to be had, this is the only logical formula.
There is no discussion to be had, this is the only logical formula.
Tyla
Because that, and Dual Attunement, is practically all heroes can run without falling into energy problems.
Heroes CAN NOT manage energy.
Heroes CAN NOT manage energy.
Molock
Heroes fail massively at energy management..
Umm.. I wouldn't personnaly use elementalist heroes (other than a warder), try other damage sources. If you insist on bringing ele heroes, dual attunement
Umm.. I wouldn't personnaly use elementalist heroes (other than a warder), try other damage sources. If you insist on bringing ele heroes, dual attunement
kobey
In the past when I run SF on heros, i bring both [skill]power drain[/skill] and [skill]leech signet[/skill], along with attunement. They never had problems with energy and they have interrupts too 
If its for NM, its a breeze and rather fast. But as for HM, i rather stick with other builds.
If its for NM, its a breeze and rather fast. But as for HM, i rather stick with other builds.
Destromath
Okay, just checking XD. It just seems like 9/10 replies that are reccomending some sort of Fire Hero build are saying to use SF and I just didn't get why >_<.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
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Heroes CAN NOT manage energy.
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Originally Posted by Molock
Heroes fail massively at energy management..
Umm.. I wouldn't personnaly use elementalist heroes (other than a warder), try other damage sources. If you insist on bringing ele heroes, dual attunement
What exactly is there to deal damage with other than an Elementalist? I would definitely use other damage builds if there were better ones, but it seemed to me that other builds relied on some sort of gimmick that required 2-3 heroes to work (such as Racthoh's Order Spammer). The only build that stands out is the Minion Bomber, but I already use one of those whenever I take heroes along.Just for the record, I use something like this most of the time whenever I'm H/Hing in an 8-man area: [skill]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill][skill]Fireball[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Weapon of Warding[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill] [skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Essence Strike[/skill][skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill][skill]Spirit Light[/skill][skill]Offering of Spirit[/skill][skill]Protective Was Kaolai[/skill][skill]Life[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill] (Rit instead of N/Rt just because I love 14 spec Splinter Weapon XD) [skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Minions[/skill][skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Extinguish[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill] P.S. Although I almost never do HM, I prefer to have my builds be able to work well in it just for the sake of it.
angmar_nite
Mind blast is more flexible and more reliable.
Coloneh
mind blast is better and usually recommended on these forums. i dont know what youve been reading.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destromath
Sorry, I misworded that statement. What I meant to ask was that is there a shining difference that Mind Blast has over Elemental Attunement or vice versa? Or is it up to personal preference?
Elemental Attunement can be stripped.
Mind Blast can't, is spammable, deals a little damage and is a strong asset in energy management which can allow things like Blinding Flash to be put on your bar and still be able to use it. The only problem is heroes can't use Mind Blast as an energy management skill, and ONLY use it for damage.
madriel222
My heroes successfully use SF and rarely go below 50% energy. Aside from Fire Attunement, they use Auspicious Incantation and Glowing Gaze remarkably well to keep their energy reserves high.
Nyktos
Heroes phail at Rodgorts spamming. If you dislike microing, you have to run SF, or no ele heroes, or be content with the fact that they aren't using their build to its full potential. Mind Blast is better for players by far, but I prefer Dual Attune for heroes.
Sab
Heroes are really bad at Mind Blast - they use it like a normal fire skill instead of energy management. If a human MB Ele ran low on energy, he'd switch to high set and Mind Blast until he's full. A hero would just spam all his skills and it would be down to pure luck if he has any energy when the battle's over.
Dual Attunes or Searing Flames for heroes, Mind Blast for human players.
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by angmar_nite
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mind blast is better and usually recommended on these forums. i dont know what youve been reading.
Hey guys, did you not notice the heroes in the title? Guess what that means?
I did something similar to what Kobey did, I gave my ele heroes pdrain and leech signet to help with energy as well as deal with any troublesome casters. It worked pretty well, they were able to keep SFing longer as well as take out any spells that could be troublesome (meteor is a common one in NF)
I did something similar to what Kobey did, I gave my ele heroes pdrain and leech signet to help with energy as well as deal with any troublesome casters. It worked pretty well, they were able to keep SFing longer as well as take out any spells that could be troublesome (meteor is a common one in NF)
shru
Up untill I found some great hybrid/utility builds, power drain and leech signet never left any of my hero's bars, they're just too useful with the AI's omnicient presence.
Before I started doing HM, I brought two SF heros with me nearly everywhere I went. It's one of the only skills mindless enough that heros have trouble screwing up. Just stick glowing gaze, SF, fire attune, p-drain, L-sig, res sig, glyph of ele power, and you'll have one free slot left (I used to stick mark on one and MS on the other.)
While these builds are still no where as effective as some other options, it's hard to go wrong in NM and this is one of the better choices if you feel the need for ele heros.
Before I started doing HM, I brought two SF heros with me nearly everywhere I went. It's one of the only skills mindless enough that heros have trouble screwing up. Just stick glowing gaze, SF, fire attune, p-drain, L-sig, res sig, glyph of ele power, and you'll have one free slot left (I used to stick mark on one and MS on the other.)
While these builds are still no where as effective as some other options, it's hard to go wrong in NM and this is one of the better choices if you feel the need for ele heros.
Ensign
I run either Searing Flames or Savannah Heat on heroes. They just spam skills anyway so give them things that are fire and forget. Be sure to give them piles and piles of emanagement, attunement, glyph, and probably Glowing Gaze or PDrain as well. You need it all.
Mind Blast can work with Glyph and Attune, but it's so unreliable (they latch onto an ele and are just done); once you put the 3rd emanagement skill on there the Mind Blast becomes redundant.
Mind Blast can work with Glyph and Attune, but it's so unreliable (they latch onto an ele and are just done); once you put the 3rd emanagement skill on there the Mind Blast becomes redundant.
Antithesis
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
A Searing Flames bar doesn't get simpler than that. The objective is solely to spam SF, so make it easy for the hero AI to do it. Energy management should not be a problem. Liquid Flame can be subbed in for AoR, but it's not needed.
Yes the bar has a narrow scope and no utility, but 2 or 3 of these will still clean up NM. For greater utility go Dual Attunement + Rodgort's Invocation and spec into Earth for Wards or /Rt for Channeling or Restoration.
A Searing Flames bar doesn't get simpler than that. The objective is solely to spam SF, so make it easy for the hero AI to do it. Energy management should not be a problem. Liquid Flame can be subbed in for AoR, but it's not needed.
Yes the bar has a narrow scope and no utility, but 2 or 3 of these will still clean up NM. For greater utility go Dual Attunement + Rodgort's Invocation and spec into Earth for Wards or /Rt for Channeling or Restoration.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
A Searing Flames bar doesn't get simpler than that. The objective is solely to spam SF, so make it easy for the hero AI to do it. Energy management should not be a problem. Liquid Flame can be subbed in for AoR, but it's not needed.
Yes the bar has a narrow scope and no utility, but 2 or 3 of these will still clean up NM. For greater utility go Dual Attunement + Rodgort's Invocation and spec into Earth for Wards or /Rt for Channeling or Restoration.
^^same bar my SF eles use, with AoR being subbed with whatever I happen to need at the moment. All an SF ele needs to do, is spam SF and Glowing Gaze. By limiting the ele's choices like that, they really have no choice but to manage their energy. The problem most people have with their SF eles, is that they give them a bar like this:
[skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill][skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
...and then wonder why they have problems.
A Searing Flames bar doesn't get simpler than that. The objective is solely to spam SF, so make it easy for the hero AI to do it. Energy management should not be a problem. Liquid Flame can be subbed in for AoR, but it's not needed.
Yes the bar has a narrow scope and no utility, but 2 or 3 of these will still clean up NM. For greater utility go Dual Attunement + Rodgort's Invocation and spec into Earth for Wards or /Rt for Channeling or Restoration.
^^same bar my SF eles use, with AoR being subbed with whatever I happen to need at the moment. All an SF ele needs to do, is spam SF and Glowing Gaze. By limiting the ele's choices like that, they really have no choice but to manage their energy. The problem most people have with their SF eles, is that they give them a bar like this:
[skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill][skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
...and then wonder why they have problems.
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
We do know that a hero will look at PDrain/LSignet and think "Looky here! An interrupt!" rather then "Looky here! An interrupt that MANAGES energy!" right?
I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.
GG is also an issue because that's the eles opening move. BUT it's much more spammable so it's better.
So my SF eles (when I use them - which is rare outside of starting areas) - mostly run JUST SF with GG and a few protection spells - Aegis, Hex/Condition removal (and ele e-management of course!). Because you basically just want them to spam SF.
I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.
GG is also an issue because that's the eles opening move. BUT it's much more spammable so it's better.
So my SF eles (when I use them - which is rare outside of starting areas) - mostly run JUST SF with GG and a few protection spells - Aegis, Hex/Condition removal (and ele e-management of course!). Because you basically just want them to spam SF.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
We do know that a hero will look at PDrain/LSignet and think "Looky here! An interrupt!" rather then "Looky here! An interrupt that MANAGES energy!" right?
Of course. But....does that matter? As I said, it "forces" the hero to manage their energy, in addition to being an interrupt, which the heros have godly reflexes for. Interrupts, protection/anti hex spells, whatever the situation calls for. Just please, for the love of god, don't fill an SF's bar with offensive fire spells then wonder where their energy is going. ><
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
We do know that a hero will look at PDrain/LSignet and think "Looky here! An interrupt!" rather then "Looky here! An interrupt that MANAGES energy!" right?
I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move. Leech Signet is free to cast so I don't see anything wrong with it. PDrain is only 5 energy and when it works (which should be at least 60% of the time) then your ele just got a load of energy.
I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move. Leech Signet is free to cast so I don't see anything wrong with it. PDrain is only 5 energy and when it works (which should be at least 60% of the time) then your ele just got a load of energy.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.
GG is also an issue because that's the eles opening move. BUT it's much more spammable so it's better.
So my SF eles (when I use them - which is rare outside of starting areas) - mostly run JUST SF with GG and a few protection spells - Aegis, Hex/Condition removal (and ele e-management of course!). Because you basically just want them to spam SF.
In short, if you want a buid to be played like a human, get a human to play it. With heroes, you can only give them the most foolproof bar you can and hope for the best, because, short of microing them there is not much more you can do.
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That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.
A lot of monsters open with one of their more powerful skills. For instance, Kournan Scribes often open with Meteor, Terrorwebs open with Meteor Shower, Rain of Terrors open with Deep Freeze a lot of the time, Jade Brotherhood Mages use Dragon's Stomp pretty early in...so...I really don't see the problem with the hero using the interrupt first, potentially disrupting one of the enemy's more potent skills. Ok, so they don't need the energy then, but by the time it's recharged, unless everything is dead, they can use it to regain more energy when they most likely need it.
upier
The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.
Super Igor
Guys wtf???
As I always say and will say, anything that is less than 5 sec recharche and more than 5 energy cost will be an instant energy killer on any hero!!!!
~Super Igor
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As I always say and will say, anything that is less than 5 sec recharche and more than 5 energy cost will be an instant energy killer on any hero!!!!
~Super Igor
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Super Igor
Guys wtf???
As I always say and will say, anything that is less than 5 sec recharche and more than 5 energy cost will be an instant energy killer on any hero!!!! Hush.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike. Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that. No. Because then they would be spamming the interrupts instead of SF/GG. Remember, you want the SF ele to spam SF and GG as much as possible. Leech Signet and Power Drain have a long recharge, yeah (during which time SF/GG would be spammed). But they are a free, and almost free, interrupt. It does not matter if it doesn't gain energy every single time. The benefit is the interrupt at no/low energy cost. The energy gain is a bonus. Hell, THE most effective SF hero you can probably make would look like this: [skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill] If you want a bar full of utility, where the hero's randomness in choosing his skills does not matter, you'd probably be better off using Savannah Heat or something.
upier
I never actually paid attention to this - but would the heroes camp the caster?
I mean - if SF was ready to be used again - would they wait to use an interrupt or would they just go with SF and use the interrupt IF they didn't have anything else to do?
Stolen Souls
If the caster started...casting, the hero would immediately attempt to interrupt. Otherwise he'd fire off SF. At least that's how I think it works.
Testing on Isle of the Nameless, Sousuke seems to wait until casters cast a spell to use the interrupts. Otherwise he just spams the crap out of SF/GG.
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
Testing on Isle of the Nameless, Sousuke waits until casters cast a spell to use the interrupts. Otherwise he just spams the crap out of SF/GG.
So if I understand this correctly - any kind of interrupt will slow him down in casting SF? So he camps?
Or is he spamming SF and uses an interrupt if he has nothing better to do? Because if that is the case - I'd much rather have a short recharging one. GoLE, FA and GG should be enough to cover the spamming.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
So if I understand this correctly - any kind of interrupt will slow him down in casting SF? So he camps?
Or is he spamming SF and uses an interrupt if he has nothing better to do? Because if that is the case - I'd much rather have a short recharging one. GoLE, FA and GG should be enough to cover the spamming. He seems to camp, yeah...or more specifically, if he sees an opportunity to interrupt, he'll take it. Gonna try the fast recharge interrupts to see if it affects anything. --With the fast recharge interrupts he runs out of energy much faster, because he attempts to interrupt practically everything cast (fast recharge may = bad in this case). In addition, those interrupts don't have an energy gain bonus. I suppose it's all personal preferance. You can try testing it for yourself if you'd like.
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
He seems to camp, yeah...or more specifically, if he sees an opportunity to interrupt, he'll take it. Gonna try the fast recharge interrupts to see if it affects anything.
--With the fast recharge interrupts he runs out of energy much faster, because he attempts to interrupt practically everything cast (fast recharge may = bad in this case). In addition, those interrupts don't have an energy gain bonus. I suppose it's all personal preferance. You can try testing it for yourself if you'd like. Yeah I did try it out a bit. (Like you said) It seems that any interrupt will make him cast less often. So I guess if you want him to spam SF - (again - like you said) that's pretty much all he should carry for optimal results ("optimal" of course meaning that he won't spam it like a human player would but still more often then with additional skills.) So yeah - IF an interrupt should be used - then it actually might be better to run something with a long recharge. Never thought it might slow him down additionally ...
Lishy
SF is good if your a paragon using "They're on fire!" and it is a nice spammable nuking skill along with burning and nice damage.SF synergizes very well with other builds, in which synergizing is the whole point to heroes!
Destromath
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Originally Posted by Kain Fz
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By the way, please try not to go off-topic with discussing how well heroes use interrupts please >_<.
One last thing:
Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneh mind blast is better and usually recommended on these forums. i dont know what youve been reading.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
I know plenty of people run 4 SF or MB/RI eles with varying utility skills.
You said it yourself >_>.
Antithesis
PDrain and LSignet are there as energy management moreso than the interrupts. Yes, the first shots are usually wasted from an e-mgt perspective, but once the hero starts spamming SF he won't stop if he has PD and LS on the bar, despite the random usage.
Originally Posted by Destromath
By putting other skills on the bar you interrupt the flow of damage output from SF and impair the ability to manage energy to keep up the spam. A hero won't camp on the interrupts vs real mobs, so the MoD may not be a valid test. The downtime from PD and LS is miniscule. Quote: Yeah, I've tried that before. However, like I was saying before, SF is extremely energy demanding without having to go with full-out energy management, so ToF tends to become useless during the last half of each battle.
Then run a bar full of e-mgt, i have no problems running 2xSF with a Tof Para. Two SF's seem to manage energy better than one, so always take a duo or trio if you insist on using them.
kazjun
Fire attune, GoLE, GG, leech sig, powerdrain. SF, ward vs melee and a res sig. Never seen them run out of energy before everything was dead. Tend not to use them in HM though, due to elemental damage being poor vs higher armour targets.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destromath
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Just don't fill your bar with spammy or energy-intensive skills. All that needs to be spammed are SF and GG. Filling it with overkill like Liquid Flame, Meteor Shower, Mark of Rodgort, etc...naturally they are gonna drain their energy. As I said this would be the most effective way for a hero to use an SF build:
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Destromath
By the way, please try not to go off-topic with discussing how well heroes use interrupts please >_<.
The point was to show that using spammy skills on the SF's bar messes up how well they use SF (SF, which this thread is about, correct?)
 Filling the SF's bar with fire spells, utility, fast-recharge interrupts, etc, throws off the flow of how they spam SF and GG. Power Drain and Leech signet are exceptions, because of the fact that they cost nothing (or very little), HAVE a long recharge, and give the chance to return some energy. But yes, in Hard Mode, Air owns all.
Antithesis
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazjun
Tend not to use them in HM though, due to elemental damage being poor vs higher armour targets.
Agreed. I only run Air conditioners in HM.
Nightow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis
Agreed. I only run Air conditioners in HM.
Same here.
12+1+1 Air 12+1 Energy Storage [skill]Air Attunement[/skill] [skill]Enervating Charge[/skill]  [skill]Blinding Surge[/skill] [skill]Shock Arrow[/skill] [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]  Res of Choice
kobey
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike. Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that. The energy gain from either interrupt pays for itself. And you generally won't be needing the energy from it b4 it recharges. So it isn't much of a problem to me. Without them, how is your ele hero going to spam SF without stopping for recharge? And you don't want to imagine how fast their energy will go down if their fire attunment gets strip.
Antithesis
I've found Ele heroes to be teh suck with Blinding Surge. I use this instead for more damage and better energy management -
[skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill][skill]Air Attunement[/skill][skill]Blinding Flash[/skill][skill]Enervating Charge[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Lightning Hammer[/skill][skill]Lightning Orb[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill] Alternately i'll drop Lightning Hammer for Splinter Weapon, Lightning Orb for Shell Shock and Death Pact Signet for Ancestor's Rage - 12 Air, 9 ES, 12 Channel |
