Definitive 'best' PvE Sin discussion

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor You dont need to spam finishing blows, things die nearly at once or take some time to die so your finishing blow rehcrges anyway, energy management doesnt take up amn extra slot as you main attribut is already an energy management, i agree that [twisting fangs] has a better synergy with you bar but its for that bar, generally [finish him] is a more powerfull skill and is better choice for other templates. I disagree on some of this statement, but at least you now agree about the synergy of TF compared to FH on a MS/DB sin.

Quote: You dont need to spam dw all the time, it helps but is not a complete must. Already gone over this one, you don't need to, no one is saying to, but it helps to pack it and is very beneficial.

Quote: Not praiseing it, rather defending it. Why? No one is saying its a bad skill, just questioning its synergy on a MS/DB bar when you can use other skills that are far more benficial and synergise better.

Quote: I said to use two offhands, taking gfs and wild, you strip enchies first, then apply dw, or apply it right away if there are none of the things that bock, they do it sometimes and it works, the combo is short anyway. Pointless, you may aswell just take Impale or Finish Him to be honest rather than running two offhands. Finish Him would be a great compliment to a Shattersin in PvE imo, use it when you like at the same recharge time as Impale with more damage and no need to spec into Deadly Arts or sacrifice a skill slot to take another offhand. Everything you have said about this skill that IS good suits the Shattersin perfectly. Why? Because it aids the Shattersin in the job its brought along for... preparing a target to get smashed to bits!

Quote: Cracked armor is used to nullify defensive sets in PvP. Not PvP, this is a PvE discussion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc I disagree on some of this statement, but at least you now agree about the synergy of TF compared to FH on a MS/DB sin. I have never disagreed on that it has synergy with MS/DB, i was doubting whether it is so much needed or if it is a best choice there is.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreeeeeel Havuk Already gone over this one, you don't need to, no one is saying to, but it helps to pack it and is very beneficial. if you dont need to spam it all the time [finish him] would do good too.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc Why? No one is saying its a bad skill, just questioning its synergy on a MS/DB bar when you can use other skills that are far more benficial and synergise better. It doesnt have as much synergy as dagger atack with MS/DB but it has some good points Ive gone over already. It is cool to shout such things as an Assassin too.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unreal havoc

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor With exactly the same "Pointless" this current debate started, now you are saying it is after all not as pointless. GFS is decent on a Shattersin, this way you can apply dw faster and spam it more often if you want, you dont always have things blocking too, so it is a strong variant. You strip all of the defences and then applly dw.
But with Finish Him you prepare the target with Deep Wound and Cracked Armour aswell as stripping all their defenses and having better damage, while keeping it all unblockable, no? As you said, spamming Deep Wound isn't nessacary just helpful (the tables can turn ). In this scenario I think that Finish Him would be more beneficial to a Shattersin that prepares targets for the party to kill.

However this debate is going nowhere and lets be straight, we wont agree because we both play differently and take different approachs to PvE. Now the debate is starting to get more about opinion than about fact which will just kill the debate. Agree to disagree?

Quote: You said FoMFs health loss was a killah for the party and ressing someone with 25% hp and no energy was better. Sarcasm Igor, sarcasm. Even I'm not that dumb. Lol. The best way to use Resurrect imo is for Death Levelling pets, other than that I wouldnt use it unless I had to (ie: newly rolled character I haven't bothered to buy skills for yet). However this isn't really about Assassins now so lets stay on topic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor I have never disagreed on that it has synergy with MS/DB, i was doubting whether it is so much needed or if it is a best choice there is. [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] sucks on an Assassin, period. Why? Because it has no synergy with any build. A 10 energy shout cuts into your pool pretty decently number one, and since its a shout there's no recharge from zealous or a chance on critical hits. The assassin has many superior DW applicating skills, that can be used in both PvE and PvP.

Quote: if you dont need to spam it all the time [finish him] would do good too. No it would not. Impale doesn't need to be spammed, nor does Twisting Fangs, especially in Moebius builds with more than one dual attack. They are used situationally, and have better parity with the rest of the assassin skill set.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaleban [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] sucks on an Assassin, period. Why? Because it has no synergy with any build. A 10 energy shout cuts into your pool pretty decently number one, and since its a shout there's no recharge from zealous or a chance on critical hits. The assassin has many superior DW applicating skills, that can be used in both PvE and PvP. When it comes to [Finish Him] vs [Twisting Fangs], the energy return is neglegible, especially in a shattersin build with 13 CS, and zealous daggers. Finish Him does have a cool down, so 10 energy every 15 seconds is not going hurt you especially with the aforementioned stats and daggers.

Quote: No it would not. Impale doesn't need to be spammed, nor does Twisting Fangs, especially in Moebius builds with more than one dual attack. They are used situationally, and have better parity with the rest of the assassin skill set. Wouldn't Finish Him be used in this same regard? As of now, [Finish Him] is the superior choice to [Impale] in PvE because it doesn't not have a casting time, doesn't require points in DA to be effective, and also adds a cracked armor conditions. The benefits of cracked armor have already been covered so we won't need to repeat that here. Since [Impale] renerfing to 1 second activation time, [Finish Him] instant activation makes it more appealing.


Quote: The "good points" you've gone over do not work on a sin. On a Paragon, who can actually benefit from the Shout e-management, yes, it has synergy, but the Assassin does not have Leadership. The only time I put [skill]"Finish Him"[/skill] on a sin skill bar is generally a solo farming build that doesn't even use dagger attacks! Hmm, maybe you are unfamiliar with what Leadership does. The energy gain is only for shouts that affect allies. Finish Him does not affect allies in the same way [Go for the Eyes] does, so therefore does not back up your claim. I do agree, Finish him is great for sliver armor/shadowform farming.

[[finish him] is pretty good on an assassin, since it's the only way to apply a deep wound that won't interrupt the combo. obviously, twisting fangs does the same thing, but it doesn't fit very well on a moebius sin.

Quote: Originally Posted by moriz

OH please. Compare
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill]
Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin:
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB.
So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks.
btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either.

for those of us with high norn FH is a much better choice as 10 energy every 15 seconds is easy to manage. With a high rank FH outdamages gives another condition (both conditions also last longer) for another, and requires no point investment. 5 energy (more then worth it imo) so it really depends on your norn rank/ability to manage energy

As stated by others [[finish him] has the huge advantage of not needing points in DA. This means you can confortably run 13 cs and 14 dagger mastery.

as usual it depends on your build, as well as the builds of your team.

read this however you want

[[impale|finish him] > [[finish him|impale]

hai guyz wuts goin on in dis thred

btw
[finish him] is good on just about anyone (monks are excused, they need that energy/skill slot for t3h healz)
The assassin is no exception.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Quote: Originally Posted by Bobby2 OH please. Compare
[skill]finish him[/skill] and [skill]impale[/skill]
Impale is cheaper, just as unblockable, with the downside of having to follow up on a Dual (like Shattering isn't going to hit. srsly.) but it doesn't chew a PvE slot. My idea of playing a Shattersin:
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]shattering assault[/skill][skill]impale[/skill]TAB.
So imho it doesn't really matter if the DW could be applied at any moment between chain attacks.
btw: Impale doesn't ruin a MS-DB chain either. Prenerf Impale maybe, but that 1 second activation time makes that 5 extra energy on instant Finish Him worth it. Plus i like running 13 CS and 14DM. Besides, other than [Critical Agility] and [Save Yourselves], what other PvE skill would you run in a shattersin bar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor Wont even bother to comment on Kaleban's post as it is so...so much wrong and bad... Although another +1 of disproving Kaleban would have been nice =)

Quote: Originally Posted by petrorabbit

Quote: Originally Posted by Bobby2

Quote Wars!
Quote: Originally Posted by petrorabbit [You Move Like a Dwarf] is a strong skill that can be on a shattersin bar, but often times I find it unneccessary. Also, its annoying when you run into mobs that are immune to KD. Besides, i find [Disrupting Dagger] as a very good and reliable interupt even at 0 deadly arts. Shame it doesn't snare as well eh? I'd rather think of the number of foes not immune to KD.

[Asuran Scan] I don't know if i'd take this over [Finish Him] because of that 2 second casting time. The damage on the shattersin chain is not that bad, and it can indeed kill stuff, just not as quickly as a moebius bar. Finish Him still boosts damage since many high end mosters have over 60 AL armor, so i think i'd take the added DW also in 1 slot. Agree on casting time, but comparing its effect to Cracked Armour is just hilarious. At least, once you get Asura to a decent level.

[Great Dwarf Weapon] is target other ally, but if you want to use your 3rd pve slot to boost another melee character, than by all means. Although i'd rather put this on a supporting character. Meet random Derv when lfg for HM mission or sthing. You offer to bring GDW if he does so too - both of you smile wickedly. Hence altruistic.

Make friends.

[Great Dwarf Armor] sounds like a good choice at first since it directly boosts your armor, but i dont' think i'd take that over Finish Him. For melee, you have [Critical Defense] as an option since you have so much room for utility on the shattersin bar. Maybe this would go well in a area with more magic damage than anything else. Again, you self-centered little... lol. Was meant for others as well ('man I loooove having this Sin around'). Yes, it's worthless next to SY!, but I was just throwing out random ideas.

[Sneak Attack] On a shattersin bar? Maybe, but I really don't see the point in bringing it when it can be blocked. Sure you can do it after the combo, but blinding a target that is almost dead doesn't seem efficient to me. You can keep a target perma-Blind. Please tell me how this is not good.

All in all, out of the options you mentioned, the only thing I would consider bringing instead of [Finish Him] is [You Move Like a Dwarf]. Even then, I think i'd rather take the DW and CA, since there are mobs in EotN especially, that can't be knocked down. The vast (VAST!) majority of baddies are not immune, let's just assume KD's are good for a second. But why lose your DW over it? That's what Impale is for 12

Impale has a 1 second activation time, which is more than enough time for it to be interupted which. Finish him is instant can only by stopped by something like [Vocal Minority] or [Well of Silence] which is not so common among mobs.


And heres something cut and pasted from wiki for you:

Quote: Creatures that cannot be knocked down
Certain creatures are simply too large for a tiny human player to knock off balance. These creatures are listed below. This list does not include creatures that use skills to temporarily protect themselves from knockdowns. The following are all giant creatures though not necessarily of the species "giant":

All Giants EXCEPT Awakened Gray Giants.
All Dolyak-riding Stone Summit units:
Dolyak Master
Dolyak Rider
Stone Summit Heretic
All beast-riding Stone Summit units:
Summit Beastmaster
Stone Summit Herder
The large- and medium-sized Titans:
Burning Titan
Frost Titan
Risen Ashen Hulk
Rotting Titan
Wild Growth
Some Trees.
All Wurms.
Dragon Liches.
Glint the dragon.
All Hydras
Siege Ice Golems
Stone Crushers
Zhu Hanuku
Shiro Tagachi
Sandstorm Crag
Shambling Mesa
Abaddon
Berserking Bison
All Jotun
Retrieved from "http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knockdown" Ok, so maybe you don't play in areas like Realm of Torment where you do run into titans, or maybe Shiverpeaks where you will run into Dolyaks, Seige Ice Golems or Wurms. Hydras in the desert? Maybe you don't run into Jotun or berserking bison in Norn territory that much, or farm norn points killing the dragon spirits in Path to Revalations. So maybe they're not as common compared to the whole GW beastiary but it affects areas that myself, and i'm sure others play in.

So far, your argument that there are other PvE skills better for a Shattersin bar than [Finish Him] isn't really convincing, only [You Move Like a Dwarf] can compare. Yes Impale can do DW, but Finish Him does it better without moving points around. If you need a KD and snare that bad, than bring YmlaD.

I guess at this point, its just back and forth opinions now. Either way, both [You move like a dwarf] and [Finish him] have their merits and we've gone over both. Players can decide for themselves what they want to use on their bar.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrorabbit [You Move Like a Dwarf] is a strong skill that can be on a shattersin bar, but often times I find it unneccessary. Also, its annoying when you run into mobs that are immune to KD. Besides, i find [Disrupting Dagger] as a very good and reliable interupt even at 0 deadly arts. /Agree

Quote: [Asuran Scan] I don't know if i'd take this over [Finish Him] because of that 2 second casting time. The damage on the shattersin chain is not that bad, and it can indeed kill stuff, just not as quickly as a moebius bar. Finish Him still boosts damage since many high end mosters have over 60 AL armor, so i think i'd take the added DW also in 1 slot. This is a great skill for boosting damage dealt by an Assassin, I don't think it appiles to the AoE damage from Death Blossom though.

Quote: ][Great Dwarf Weapon] is target other ally, but if you want to use your 3rd pve slot to boost another melee character, than by all means. Although i'd rather put this on a supporting character. Should already be running Save Yourselves as the ultimate party support skill, this is unnessacary on an Assassin.

Quote: [Great Dwarf Armor] sounds like a good choice at first since it directly boosts your armor, but i dont' think i'd take that over Finish Him. For melee, you have [Critical Defense] as an option since you have so much room for utility on the shattersin bar. Maybe this would go well in a area with more magic damage than anything else. Why would you run this on an Assassin when you have Critical Agility?

on second thought, any deep wound on a moebius sin is quite bad. why? because that means 1 less death blossom, which means potentially a lot less aoe damage.

not to mention, the build certainly don't need a deep wound. it does enough damage to plow through most monsters in one go.

Quote: Originally Posted by moriz