Taking Them Apart

Terrokian

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Alliance,Ohio

Terrokian's Avengers

02 Apr 2008 at 01:34 - 1

Seems to be alot of debate on one hero being smarter than another.Healer hero vs henchie.No such thing as a good hero melee.The we got this topic Post Your Killer Hero Builds.Top it off 2SF party or Sabway.Talk about easily confused on which way to go.My question is......
does each hero have one build that is ABSOLUTELY best for it?For EXAMPLE(in other words don't write this in stone)

this is the Best Jora build out there
W/Mo Swordsmanship 12+1+1 Strength 12+1 Healing Prayers 3
[skill]Enraging Charge[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill][skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

change Rez Chant for defense/protection depending on area.

Now again I want to stress that this is an example.The idea here is what kind of hero and what skills excel at PvE or PvP?As for synergizing a group that should be WAY MORE than 2SF or Sabway.In essence you should be able to say something like"My style of play is a Long Range Ranger Bomber"(main char).Thus my support should be 1 tank 1 healer and 1 degen hero with these henchies(pick the apropriate henchies).So if you take the best tank build,the best healer build,and the best degen build you get your wish for style of play.Now it's already common knowledge that not every build is compatible with every area.i think though that with the ability to switch out heroes according to where you are and what you're after,there should be no problem with (another example) saying "Hey I'm going to farm the CoF,I've got a Paragon Attacker,who should come along?"
Maybe this seems to be a long drawn out question,but to me it seems we need to hash out this is the hero build and this is the best that build can do.

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

02 Apr 2008 at 03:44 - 2

wall of ramble hurts my eyes.... what does this say?

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

02 Apr 2008 at 04:48 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Seems to be alot of debate on one hero being smarter than another.

Less of a debate and more like wishful thinking that one hero runs a particular bar better than another. Same skills, same setup, same result with the exception of the tide of battle.

Quote: Originally Posted by Terrokian Healer hero vs henchie. A well setup Hero will always beat a Henchie. The take-home messages of that thread should be take offensive Heroes because Hench Monks can do the job, whereas offensive Henchies are crap compared to offensive Heroes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Terrokian No such thing as a good hero melee. Melee Heroes suck because they kite from AoE and bounce from whatever target you're attacking to the next. They tend to run narrow-focus DPS bars but by the time they've had a couple of whacks, that target's down so off they run to the next...rinse and repeat. They spend more time out of battle than in it. A Ranged Hero can swap targets instantly, is rarely targetted and can output some serious offensive and defensive support. You can also better manage your agro with no melee in the party.

If you must take melee give it a purpose - an Earthshaker Warrior causes PBAoE knockdown to multiple foes, limiting their damage output while laying down the smack.

Quote: Originally Posted by Terrokian The we got this topic Post Your Killer Hero Builds. Ignore the post, it's mostly subpar self-flagellating crap.

Quote: Originally Posted by Terrokian My question is......
does each hero have one build that is ABSOLUTELY best for it? A Warrior Hero will run an Axe, Hammer or Sword equally well. Jin will run a Broad Head Arrow bar the same as Margrid or Pyre. How a Hero runs that bar has less to do with an individual Hero's skin and more to do with understanding the skills they're using. It comes down to a handful of parameters -which skills most benefit the team which conditions are the most useful (degen isn't important in PvE when everything dies so quickly) which skills can Heroes actually use which skills synergise with each other (on that Hero's bar and on other party members bars) which skills compress a bar to offer greater utility which skills won't cause energy to tank which skills can be exploited using the primary attribute (Soul Reaping / Leadership = infinite energy in the right build)
It's a matter of trial and error to find the best bars for your Heroes, you can easily nut it down to a few builds per class. If you want to spend the next 6 months experimenting with Hero setups that's up to you (tweaking builds is my favourite part of the game), but in time you'll appreciate why cookie cutter builds are so good...the hard work's already been done for you.

You'll also learn to differentiate between what's best in PvP and PvE. They're entirely different games with different objectives meaning some skills are stronger in one arena than another eg running enchant stripping and degen conditions / hexes is strong in PvP but weak in PvE. Eviscerate is strong in PvP because your only job is DPS and spiking owns. Sure it'll work in PvE, but your team's defense is weaker than running a Dragon Slasher spamming Save Yourselves while still pumping out massive DPS.

No party member operates in a vacuum so build utility into the team to ease the load on your healers - if they fail, you fail. Equally, a strong offense will beat back any defense, so take a balanced approach and learn when enough defense is enough (3 Monks is overkill).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

this is the Best Jora build out there I disagree with a Hero D-Slasher but i get your point...you're after are the best bars to run for each class eg WoH Heal/Prot Hybrid, Searing Flames Ele, Mind Blast Hybrid Ele, Blindbot Ele, Barrage Ranger, Broad Head Arrow Ranger.... I could probably list 50 builds i use semi-regularly of thousand of builds i've tried. There is definitely a number of 'best' skills to take based on the target attribute you use for your Hero, but you'll get varying opinions about the remaining three or four skills on that bar depending on personal preference. Here's a number of examples (for Heroes) -

Jagged Bones | Animate Bone Minions | Blood of the Master | Death Nova | Signet of Lost Souls
Mind Blast | Rodgort's Invocation | Glowing Gaze | Fire Attunement | Glyph of Lesser Energy
Spiteful Spirit | Reckless Haste | Enfeebling Blood | Barbs | Signet of Lost Souls
Broad Head Arrow | Volley | Distracting Shot | Epidemic
Mend Body & Soul | Spirit Light | Protective Was Kaolai | Life | Signet of Lost Souls

...as long as the core build's solid, you can muck around with the other skills to suit your play style.

In the end you can save yourself the headache of filtering through the ensuing pile of crappy builds and just take Sabway...you'll come out ahead. Sabway has great synergy built upon the armour ignoring damage inflicted by minion bombs, the defensive wall they create and the energy gained when minions die. The only variable between zones is the number of corpses in that area. If it's low, consider taking Reaper's Mark as the Heroes' elite to manage their energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

I think though that with the ability to switch out heroes according to where you are and what you're after,there should be no problem with (another example) saying "Hey I'm going to farm the CoF,I've got a Paragon Attacker,who should come along?" The simple answer is use a Monk instead of a Paragon. Paragon's are crappy farmers with the exception of Ursan groups. When it comes to farming you need to adapt your build as well as your Heroes. Farming builds /= general PvE builds like Sabway.

I'm not sure if i've answered your question, it was a bit difficult to work out what you wanted

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

02 Apr 2008 at 05:47 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

In the end you can save yourself the headache of filtering through the ensuing pile of crappy builds and just take Sabway...you'll come out ahead. Sabway has great synergy built upon the damage inflicted by minion bombs, the defensive wall they create and the energy the Necs gain when they die. The only variable between zones is the number of corpses in that area. If it's low, consider taking Reaper's Mark as the Heroes' elite to manage their energy. Sabway is not the answer to all problems in PvE. It is a nice generic build but it is just not suitable for some areas because these areas may not have enough corpses, for example. No corpses, no minions, no minion bombs, no exploitation of Soul Reaping, which is what powers it. This is perfectly fine because every build has its weaknesses, the problem is to recognize what those weaknesses are. Besides relying on corpses, it also doesn't have interrupts or hex removal. Sab, understandably, made a generic build with generic assumptions that may not be applicable to some areas.

Unless you plan to avoid areas that are unfriendly to sabway, you still need to decide on what/who to take or replace in situations like that. So if you use sabway regularly, you still need to know how to tweak it when the situation demands it. I suggest you list the problematic areas to sabway, and come up with solutions for each of them.

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

02 Apr 2008 at 06:06 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Sabway is not the answer to all problems in PvE. It is a nice generic build but it is just not suitable for some areas because these areas may not have enough corpses, for example.

100% agree, but it's a good starting point for most people to understand how to make a working team build. There are 2-4 slots on each build that can be manipulated, so it's a great framework to build upon depending on each zone's requirements. Both the Curse build and the Restorer function perfectly well without minions if you take Reaper's Mark as the elite. Neither Weapon of Remedy nor Spiteful Spirit are required skills in Sabway, they just happen to be the best options that Heroes can use. You can also use Icy Veins on the Restorer and Putrid Bile / Rising Bile on the MM to cause AoE when limited minions are available.

Quote:

Reaper's Mark only boosts Soul Reaping energy gain through deaths. If there are not enough deaths happening, you still dont gain back the energy as much as having an army of minions that would die, explode, and poison. But I guess whatever helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Besides relying on corpses, it also doesn't have interrupts or hex removal. Both are handy, neither are required. Most hexes are harmless and some Henchies pack BHA. You've also got PvE skills like Pain Inverter, Technobabble, Brawling Headbutt etc at your disposal to deflect the damage or lockdown a caster.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

02 Apr 2008 at 06:39 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Both are handy, neither are required. Most hexes are harmless and some Henchies pack BHA. You've also got PvE skills like Pain Inverter, Brawling Headbutt etc at your disposal to deflect the damage or lockdown a caster. There is no BHA hench in Prophecies or Nightfall and only some places in Factions has Daeman. And these PvE skills tend to be only single-targeting and doesn't really stop a mob of hex casters.

Certain places with hexes like Wurm Bile (and other PvE hexes like Last Rite of Torment, etc), Diversion, Empathy, Backfire, Soothing Images, etc. can be devastating to your heroes/henchies or yourself, depending on your build. Hexes are not all harmless. The question is, how to tweak sabway to deal with these places.

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

02 Apr 2008 at 07:27 - 7

Again, no arguments here, no build will work perfectly everywhere...if it did GW would be an awfully boring game. Soul Reaping> Reaper's Mark, but you can run Sabway in low corpse areas using RM as a very effective energy management tool on a Hero. If foes aren't dying enough to utilise RM, the team build needs to be revised.

Technobabble has an AoE, Brawling Headbutt can lock down a boss, Pain Inverter will make short work of most bosses and dangerous hexes are few and far between. Hex removal can easily be slotted on the MM, so i'm not really understanding the problem unless you're tackling a particularly difficult dungeon or boss. In instances like this, it's easier to take builds tailored to those dungeons than use Sabway eg 3 x Touch Ranger vs Cyndr. But the default Sabway build will do the job in 95% of PvE.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

02 Apr 2008 at 16:03 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Yes I am calling out those specific situations where hex removal become almost necessary or when there are no corpses. As I have said above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Unless you plan to avoid areas that are unfriendly to sabway, you still need to decide on what/who to take or replace in situations like that. So if you use sabway regularly, you still need to know how to tweak it when the situation demands it. For sabway fans, do you bring Gwen or Pyre when you need an interrupter because Meteor Showers hurt. Who do you replace? If you need hex removing what skills do you bring on the MM? If there are not enough corpses, who do you replace the MM with? And if you replace the MM, do you bring Protective Spirit/Aegis on another character? These are the issues regular sabway users still need to think about for those areas.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

02 Apr 2008 at 16:13 - 9

It's Warrior, not tank.

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

03 Apr 2008 at 04:51 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

For sabway fans, do you bring Gwen or Pyre when you need an interrupter because Meteor Showers hurt. Who do you replace? If you need hex removing what skills do you bring on the MM? If there are not enough corpses, who do you replace the MM with? And if you replace the MM, do you bring Protective Spirit/Aegis on another character? These are the issues regular sabway users still need to think about for those areas. There was a long time where I only had 2 Necros (I hadn't grabbed Master of Whispers yet), and I ran with the SS, MM, and a Heal/Prot hybred monk, an Ele Blaster, or a Warrior/Dervish for some physical damage if some was needed beyond a hench warrior. I reciently played with an interupting ranger in caster heavy areas, and that worked, as the ranger seemed to target people I wasn't, but you can get that out of a Henchman, so there are better Heroes to take.

Of course, I was doing this as a Mesmer, so i did most of the interrupting myself (4 interrupts, E-Surge, Empathy, and some util)

When I play my warrior (who isn't quite 20th yet), an MM, a monk, and a util. I like to bring Gwen as an interrupter in caster heavy areas, but usually I bring an Ele. He only has 1 Necro unlocked though.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

03 Apr 2008 at 05:10 - 11

Sabway is good cause the builds are solid and abuse the game mechanics. How many people slotted mark of pain or barbs before?

So what you want to do is to keep abusing game mechanics.

-leadership and soul reaping are beasts.
-armor ignoring damage is good (includes +damage from attack skills)
-physical damage is easily boosted.
-monk henchies are good enough.
-passive defense is good.
-shut down enemy melee and then kill the casters.
-armor and PS are the best versus casters, along with daze.

So if you know this, you can adapt to any situation.

And paragons have no problems running expel hexes or empathic removal.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

03 Apr 2008 at 07:38 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

There was a long time where I only had 2 Necros (I hadn't grabbed Master of Whispers yet), and I ran with the SS, MM, and a Heal/Prot hybred monk,

When would you bring a heal/prot monk? I just rely on Mhenlo and sometimes Lina for monk healing/prot. The only times that I would bring monk heroes are for smiting undead.

Quote: an Ele Blaster, or a Warrior/Dervish for some physical damage if some was needed beyond a hench warrior.

Warrior heroes tend to suck since they run around most of the time. Even though I like Jora, I dont think I have ever brought her along on real missions.

Talon is good enough even though he kind of sucks too, but at least he comes cheaper, as a hench. Is there really any good use for warrior heroes?

Quote:

I reciently played with an interupting ranger in caster heavy areas, and that worked, as the ranger seemed to target people I wasn't, but you can get that out of a Henchman, so there are better Heroes to take. In EOTN and certain parts of Factions, you can bring an interrupting BHA ranger hench, so you dont really need to bring a hero for that. I only bring heroes that can't be covered by henchies.

Quote: Of course, I was doing this as a Mesmer, so i did most of the interrupting myself (4 interrupts, E-Surge, Empathy, and some util) Ever since I saw how much more efficient heroes are in interrupting I have delegated all serious interrupting to them, even for my mesmer characters.

Quote:

When I play my warrior (who isn't quite 20th yet), an MM, a monk, and a util. I like to bring Gwen as an interrupter in caster heavy areas, but usually I bring an Ele. He only has 1 Necro unlocked though. And that is why I have been so interested in mesmer heroes because they are such a good fit to the missing pieces of sabway:

1) Hex removal
2) Interrupts
3) Need corpses

Mesmers are built for hex removal, interrupts, and they dont need corpses.

I replace the MM with a mesmer in places where there are not many corpses. I replace the SS necro with a mesmer too in places where there are corpses, but need interrupts to survive.

But I am sure some are dying to post: Why not bring a necro interrupter to exploit Soul Reaping blah blah?

You can, but my mesmer is built in such a way that they either use a signet build with very high AL and low energy needs, or they use FC skills. In any case, they dont require much energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sabway is good cause the builds are solid and abuse the game mechanics. How many people slotted mark of pain or barbs before? I have been using barbs on my necro and necro heroes for a very long time before sabway. Mark of Pain sucks on heroes because you need to place it well. I have been using it on my necro character along with a fiend MM hero, ever since Factions, and it has worked very well.

Quote:

-armor and PS are the best versus casters, along with daze.

So if you know this, you can adapt to any situation.

And paragons have no problems running expel hexes or empathic removal. Sabway has no daze or paragons or hex removal. A Paragon team build like Rac's needs alot more tweaking for different PvE situations.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

04 Apr 2008 at 20:47 - 13

Good hero build is a build that uses smexy meta skills!

~Super Igor

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

07 Apr 2008 at 01:30 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And that is why I have been so interested in mesmer heroes because they are such a good fit to the missing pieces of sabway:

1) Hex removal
2) Interrupts
3) Need corpses

Mesmers are built for hex removal, interrupts, and they dont need corpses.

You can, but my mesmer is built in such a way that they either use a signet build with very high AL and low energy needs, or they use FC skills. In any case, they dont require much energy. Indeed, a Mesmer can fill a hole if Sabway is missing stuff. A good compromise I've found is the MM necro equiped with Barbs and Mark of Pain instead of Protections can fill the role of curser and MM very effectively, leaving open the SS necro spot in places where the SS Necro may not be as effective, or some other role is needed (A Mesmer can fill the SS role fairly well too).

Why a mesmer over a necro? With the Hero interrupters, they're so quick on the draw, that FC can help quite a bit, particularly if they have to bounce to a secondary target after the first interrupt.

As to why I ran the Heal/Prot Monk, it was more useful in 6 man areas, as a single well build heal/prot monk can cover a 6 man team, or in areas where only 1 healer is available (again, 6 man areas). It also works when running a 2/6 team with a friend. 1 runs Sabway, the other runs some other variant (Ele, Monk Heal/Prot, and 1 util, like a Mesmer, Ranger, or second monk). It's also effective in areas where there aren't a lot of casters. As my warrior gets towards those areas, he'll pull out Gwen.

(I also like to level up all my heroes to 20, so got to pull them out sometime).