The distinction between challenge and cheese

I don't like EotN and, until today, I didn't really know exactly why. The game always just irked me, rubbed me the wrong way, you know? But I couldn't really pinpoint WHY it annoyed me, so I kept coming back and giving it another chance thinking it was just me.

Then, today, in HotS L1, I realized why... the entire thing is just packed to the gills with gimmicky cheese and there is really no challenge or tactic to it at all.

First of all, I was already pissed when I got to this point because I was only running through HotS to do the Gladd's Encampment quest, and I literally managed to take EVERY dead end turn before finding the right one. My hences were all dead, save one, so when I saw Erasklion, I intended to die so I could res farther back, closer to where I needed to restart my running from.... my bad.

Here is Erasklion on death's door. Note the 60% DP I built up by simply running around enemies (and getting caught in dead ends), one living hench (who had managed to build up 60% DP long before because I kept using them as distractions), the only buff being an AoS (which failed to keep the idiot H/Hs alive, you'll note... it's only purpose) and my haphazardly designed skillbar.


Here is Erasklion, dead:


This is why I don't like EotN. There's no spirit to it. No challenge. It's just stupid gimmicks like unavoidable "traps" and constant speed/vision debuffs. I just managed to practically solo a level 28 boss who had the benefit of two nearby poison traps and at no point in the process was I even remotely at risk of dying. If I hadn't had the interrupter, the worst case would've been a stalemate.

Why did they even waste their time making this "game"? How did they manage to go from the near-revolutionary Prophecies to this gimmicky crap?

I like cheese

And I bought EotN for HoM not really the content

He is so "easy" because the only thing he has to damage you with is his spear. All of his skills are just defensive buffs/support. Did you solo the fungal spores that were around him as well?

I agree wholeheartedly with you on most points. That's one reason I don't do dungeons. They're not hard tactics-wise. Just easy to get lost in unless you run them all the time. And a sh*t ton of enemies.

HoM was the main draw for most people. New armor. New heroes. Finally see what happened to Gwen.

That's about it.

I was a little disappointed too.

If you want a challenge go PvP, best advice I can think of.

I do AB and RA for kicks, but I don't play the game enough to do anything more in PvP. I just can't stay interested that long (especially since I have a low tolerance for immature, chest-thumping jackasses, which one inevitably finds in any competitive event, digital or otherwise).

That part sucked too -__- Now I just want to push her off a cliff in every cutscene she's in.

I went into that alcove with Herta, the interrupter, and me. Herta died right off and the interrupter and I finished everything else off in it. We then went back out and killed off the entire blob of Cave Abwhachmawhosits, Blooms, etc. and ressed everyone else.

Besides, this was just the point I realized it. Maw's dungeons? Not hard. Just packed to the brim with wurms. If you have hours on end to inch along, you can get it through it without breaking a sweat. Menagerie? Not hard, same deal. All the Asura areas full of dinosaurs? Not hard, just stand around wasting time until you've seen all their paths.

It's not "easy", it's just easy. No challenge beyond making sure you inch forward to not trigger enormous hidden enemy popups and making sure you don't stand right in a trap for too long. Prophecies required you to think. EotN just basically requires you to be conscious...

I only tried it out during the 5-hour "trial" they offered when it first got released. (I wanted the tinted glasses, and there was no way to accomplish that in 5 hours.)

I don't like EotN. I don't like the imba skills, and especially the philosophy behind the whole "rank in X" system which totally does away with the professions! It simplifies game design, I'm sure, to have everyone running the same bar (i.e., Ursan-way). That way, you know what everyone is capable of and can design around it. But, it also allows: non-Ranger primaries or secondaries to set traps; non-Rits or Necroes to perform (imho imba) summonings; everybody can perform imba, almost constant KD's; etc.

::shudder::

I like the additional Heroes, and the armor, but really dislike the way EotN has so screwed up everything. I won't buy it, nor am I likely to purchase GW2 if this is where they are going with things. I'll stick with reworking my builds in PvE every week or so when they buff/nerf/"balance" skills!

Um, that's pretty much how every campaign goes. Would you rather the areas be packed FULL of enemies so you have no choice but to agro every single one at once, therefore giving you no choice but to kill everything on the way to where you're going?

Cos...it kinda sounds like that's what you think/class as 'hard' *shrugs*

I'm sorry, but unless you do the above with every single boss and dungeon - soloing them I mean - then I don't see the point in this thread. In fact...I really just DON'T see the point.

One minute you say you got dead a lot just because you couldn't find your way, but yet say it's TOO easy with no challenge. Hmmm.

You say there are no tactics involved in playing through, yet you point out the tactics needed later...

"If you have hours on end to inch along, you can get it through it without breaking a sweat."

"All the Asura areas full of dinosaurs? Not hard, just stand around wasting time until you've seen all their paths".

Those above seemed to be your tactics

I really can't work out if you're just bad at the area and are moaning, or that you're trying to impress us by saying you can walk through it 'easy'.

You seem to be the only person so far who doesn't understand my point, or what was going on prior to those screenies, so perhaps you ought to consider a third possibility that doesn't involve anybody but yourself...

I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm just some sort of super genius, but I've never felt the urge to run headlong into a bonfire IRL, so I fail to see how translating that to the digital equivalent with timed traps is a matter of "tactics". That seems more a matter of not suffering from serious cognitive deficiencies.

Or, did you just never play Proph back before the other campaigns came out? Because before there were a ton of overpowered junk skills, you actually had to put some thought into your skill bar, and you had to actually manage the combat. That even entailed switching between enemies during the fight to manage debuffs, interrupts, etc. I realize most people are now familiar with CTRL+Double Click to focus fire on one, then another enemy, but it wasn't always like that.

You used to have to actually PLAY this game...

Those traps are really annoying.

If one of their projectiles hit you, you can see a recharge of 3 seconds in them.

But those damm things shoot one projectile to each party member EVERY SINGLE SECOND! And even faster in HM.

They must be fixed. Really.

I'd also add a Lightbringer skill... something like:

Lightbringer's Tranquility:
E:10 C:2 R:20
Skill. For 5..10 seconds, all party members withing range are not affected by environmental effects or traps. (Lightbringer Title)

Given to those that reach rank 8.

That would include both bad and good effects.

You have a point, but do consider how you may have felt if you had not played Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall etc... before. For an experienced player GWEN isn't that difficult, but generally speaking it is harder than the first 3 "real" campaigns. Often in the previous campaigns I could sit back and let my heroes and henchies do the work (with the right builds), or just plain not worry about who I had with me, just overwhelm them with numbers. In GWEN I put much more time and attention into what my party members are doing.... more higher level mobs trying to kill you and making sure they don't seems like a challenge to me. xd

I do get the feeling in some ways, that GWEN was produced to simply fill in time until GW2 arrives, but whatever the reason, I am enjoying it. I like the different races/ cultures and while parts of the storyline may be cheesy, they are still fun, even if not as serious seeming. Imo it's a step above Factions, even if not quite on par with NF or Proph. :s

Meh, you're over-stating it. I played through Prophecies before all the high-powered skills came out and it wasn't any harder than EotN.

I agree that the traps are more annoying than anything else, and are a gimicky way of adding difficulty, but I've always liked dead-end dungeons. Not because being lost is so awesome, but I like the CHANCE at being lost, & learning the dungeon based on experience. Nowadays everything is so funneled & linear. You can only go here because the game wants you to go HERE. Boring.

btw, I'm confused as to how the game is so easy if you had a -60 DP in HotS? ....at Erasklion?

So Frost Maw's is easy but you had a -60 DP in HotS cuz you got LOST? I don't know for sure, but sounds like you're not being honest with one thing or another, or game really isn't that easy and you just don't like xyz parts.

play on hm, see how many dungeons you can dart through, see how many end bosses you can solo, with or without consumables.

Your remark about EotN being "no challenge" might have had more credibility if your team hadn't all been at -60 dp. The idea is to not be wiping repeatedly.

Although a paragon, Erasklion is on the order of a healing monk boss. The idea is that he keeps his pals buffed and alive and then, failing that, he keeps himself alive. In this type of scenario, if you attempt to kill him and cannot, you fail -- so, it would not be a "stalemate", imo, it would be a defeat. Look at his skill set and tell me how he was supposed to kill you: Erasklion? It's just not what he was designed for.

Well, I like Eye of the North. And, frankly, I think all of the campaigns, as well as Eye of the North, are heavily loaded with gimmicks; the gimmicks are what makes each quest, dungeon, or mission interesting and unique and thus, in my opinion, enjoyable. If EotN irks you and rubs you the wrong way (your words), then it's probably best to be playing something else.

The reason theres so many pops is because the instance can hold so many creatures at a time. So to save your comp and their servers some are hidden. I dont know the exact number though i think ive read an article on it, but lets say including heros/hench/NPC's/yourself/pets/Minions/foes the instance can hold 150. how much fun would anything be then?

Also i might be guessing because that pic is bad but it appears theres a hero/hench dead right behind your live Hench and one a little further away. Also i know you said your build was put together hastily, but common sense would say if you planned on running with hench close to the end you would take running skills, and let the hench kill the boss for you. I know from experience the hench are enough to put down any boss especially since you solo'd him right? I will take one final guess and say that, that is the build of choice or force for you and you stunk all the way to the boss blazing cons in nm and came here to rant and rave because hero/hench dont do much talking back.

- That's nothing we wouldn't already know. Perhaps it's time to stop condescending and go play something appropriate for your abilities. No one comes to Barbie Pony Adventure board to complain that the game lacks "challenge" and that it doesn't feature firearms.

- Don't you realize that the game was beatable by playing a Warrior with 16 in Swordmastery and empty skillbar, just auto-attacking targets that didn't have protection on them? So much for challenge there. Only thing that determines how well you do is the quality and number of Monks, which you completely neglected in your screens there.

Try it in Hard Mode, then tell us if it tastes like Cheese. You obviously need a challenge; hardmode should help you out here. . .

Hmmm, I actually did play through prophs before the other campaigns even came out, with only henchies and not heroes. I found I had to think about my skill bar less than I do now. I also didn't have the benefit of consumables Ah well, we all have different perspectives huh

Sorry, but I don't really understand... You want to rush in the dungeons, without a tactic ? Then do it. That's what I do, I don't plan on what to do, I just kill until I see the door, especially in HotS. And if you get lost in it, then maybe you should think about checking the map on one of the wikis instead of getting 60%DP.

EotN's been out for quite a while now. This whole game isn't tactics-heavy, most of it is about timing and focusing.

I remember going into HOS and finding it somewhat hard because no one knew what to expect. It's like the first time we went in an area with destroyer... we had SF heroes. The second time we had switched to air and water nukers because they don't require burning to be effective. Learn from your mistakes like we all do... in general.