The Origin of the Mursaat

I was just playing through the Saul's story and a thought struck me near the end of the last cinematic, "Why did the mursaat take saul away with them?"

more to the point what did they want with Saul and not the other white mantle that were with him?

Trying to figure out a reasoning for this I wondered, what if the Mursaat are actually human? It would certaintly help explain their physical features, but also why they take such interest in human affairs over the other species.

Just my rambling theory here, but I believe the mursaat (and possibly Seer's as well) were both once regular humans, who after delving into powerful magic were transformed more or less, allowing them all the abilities of the Mursaat we know today.

It seems that the Mursaat feel they've "evolved" beyond humanity and have lost much of their respect for human life, as is evidenced by their killing of their white mantle followers after the battle of kryta. In particular the killing of those white mantle got me thinking the most, why did the mursaat kill them off? Obviously because they wanted themselves to remain a "secret" or "unseen" leaving only the 3 (dorian, thommis and hablion) to tell the tale, however I think there may have been another reason for the killing of them.

I think they may have actually been "harvesting" those white mantle's life force much like the bloodstones do, but instead of being used to charge soul batteries I think the intent was to gather enough life energy to "create" or "ascend" a new mursaat...namely Saul.

Also, this overal theory may help explain the war between the Seers and the Mursaat. The Mursaat are very power hungry and seem to have a great disrespect for life, the Seers likely saw the Mursaat as becoming too dangerous, as they had immense power and a very foul attitude towards others. As for the origin of the Seers themselves they may have "evolved" in a similar fashion as the Mursaat or they may be an entirerly alien race.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit incoherently, but to sum this up;

• The Mursaat are humans that used powerful magic and the life force of other humans to grant them incredible powers
• The Mursaat took Saul with them with the intent of making him into a Mursaat
• They "harvested" the white mantle that were with Saul to fuel this transformation, as Mursaat powers are made by taking the life of others

Again just my theory, but I think it makes sense overall

guild wars two...us versus uber mursaat saul? lol

Not sure, but they must have done *something* with Saul. I mean, they felt like he owed them big, and they intended to cash in.

Considering the guy in EOTN (Justicar Naveed) who is cursed, it made it sound like he wanted to be uncursed before the Mursaat in him took over. It's not explicitly said that Lazarus was going to take over, I think, but that's how I took it.

My take? I don't think they made Saul a Mursaat, I think they just took his body and had another Mursaat take it over. Yep, I claim the Mursaat are body snatchers.

The seers are in league with the Dragons and draw their power from them, the musaat are like buffer to stop the rise of teh dragons at any cost created by the gods. (speculation 100%)

I would disagree with the mursaat harvesting the souls of the white mantel.

My idea:
-They just killed them off, nothing more. They did this so that the Seers would not figure out that it is the Mursaat leading the white mantel.
-They left the 3 "strongest believers" so that the Mursaat are continued to be worshiped.
-They took Saul to make sure that he does not destroy the worship of the Mursaat as the "Unseen Ones"
-Dorian, Thommis and Hablion do not disobey in fear of their own lives, so they spread the rumor that saul and everyone else was killed off by the charr. They then spread the religion in order to keep themselves alive.

If the Mursaat and the Seers were once humans, I have one thing to say...

SAUL IS THE SEER!!!!1!5!1!!one!!!

Actually, I thought the reason the Mursaat took Saul was fairly well spelled out:

Saul had honestly believed that the Mursaat were good guys, and that by bringing the Mursaat to Kryta that he had been doing a good thing for his nation. All things considered, given that Kryta may have gone the way of Ascalon without them, he may even have been right, in a 'better than the alternative' way.

However, when they killed the other White Mantle apart from himself, Dorian, Hablion and Thommis, he realised the true nature of the Mursaat - at which point he became a threat. However, if the Mursaat openly killed him, this may have caused the other three to rebel where the deaths of the others didn't (you can explain some cannon fodder dying because they didn't have the strength of faith to survive the encounter. You can't really claim this about your chosen prophet) so they took him instead. It's entirely possible that they took him just so they could do away with him somewhere out of sight of the other three.

^^^^
That makes more sense then anything else, and is more in depth then what I said . Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mursaat put saul on the bloodstone before killing him.

Once again, this thread outlines the ambiguousity on the Mursaats nature. Most players tend to associate Mursaats with evil, or another kind of "bad guys" band. This is the point I don't agree with.

First of all, Mursaats and Seers are races we don't know the purpose of. Yet, Prophecies campaign gives us one first hint : it is obvious that Mursaats and Titans are foes to each others. This is why Mursaats have built their main stronghold around the Door of Komalie, the very place where Titans are kept sealed. A second hint is given in the DoA. The followers of the Fury are the Guardians of Komalie who fight alongside with the Titans in the Foundry (thus making the 'guardian' clearly meaning 'protectors'). So, my first point is, Mursaats are clearly hostile towards Titans which are, through the all game, a threat to Tyria.

Second of all, it has to be remembered why the players are led to consider the Mursaats as foe. When arriving in LA, and untill Maguuma, we get aligned with the White Mantle in our try for containing the undead invastion of Kryta. It is only when we discover that the WM sacrifices those who are gifted with the true sight that we decide to turn against them and help the Shining Blade. The same Shining Blade seems to be motives in Prophecies with 'pure' intentions (saving inocents). Yet we learn in GWEN, and in GW2 background, that the first motivations of the Shining Blade is to restore the king as the ruler of Kryta. Even if it is not mentionned which goal was the first proclaimed, it is not obvious that the Shining Blade' war is based on altruism only. Remeber that this killing of innoncents was meant to prevent the Flame Seeker's Prophecy, who foresight the unleashing of the Titans ...

So, my final point is, we don't know whether Mursaats are a bad-intentioned race, or a bunch of highly evolved creatures that does not care about other races, or even if they had to embody the unpleasant role of the Justicar who needs to sacrifice some innocents in order to protect the majority. I take it for granted the very words of Lazarus the Dire :
Objectively, I think the real purpose of the Mursaats cannot be guessed, unfortunately. But giving the fact that they wanted to kept the Titans sealed, I don't have such a bad opinion on them.

My turn. I would not say that the mursaat did anything for Kryta or Saul without the intent of getting something out of it. I would say that the mursaat are "neutral" guardians, who simply strike at whatever prevents them from filling their duties. All things considered, it seems like the mursaat have been quite busy, what with directing the white mantle, guarding the door of komalie, and trying to take down your hero.

I feel that they are a separate race, like the seers, that simply evolved some time after glint was born. What makes this tale more interesting is the similarity they share to enchanted bows/swords in the crystal desert. This may be coincidence, but only anet knows. This may be off topic, but I have a feeling the enchanted enemies in the desert are remnants of a war the mursaat waged against abaddon and/or leftovers from the seer war. This war may have somehow pushed the evolution of the mursaat forward and narowed their development into only caster classes.

Anyhow, back to Saul. I think that the Saul was one of the very first of the chosen. The mursaat were at first delighted to find such a magically apt human, but quickly realized that this would be their downfall as they had known of the flameseeker prophecies. A deal between Saul and the mursaat was made, and once the charr were driven back, they killed the other white mantle to demonstrate their power and strike fear into hablion and the others that were left alive, so that they would not come looking for Saul. Of course, it would have been useless because Saul was simply sacrificed on the bloodstone. Although the mursaat did not break the deal, they twisted the situation to benefit them the best they could.

The mursaat accomplished 3 things through Saul...
1. Learning that killing the Chosen on the bloodstone would provide excess energy to seal them.

2. Gaining a following that would basically deliver the Chosen to be sacrificed to them.

3. Preventing the Flameseeker Prophecies from occuring (although we know they do not succeed).

The Seers are also enemies to the Mursaat and judgeing from their help, the Titans. Also we dont know if the Mursaat built that stronghold. In Abaddons Gate we see the exact same bridge found in Abaddons Mouth suggesting that the stronghold found in Abaddons Mouth may of belonged to a former army of the gods (Or Abaddon seeing as that area seems to be named after him) since the Realm of Torment is connected to that area. The Mursaat just took hold of it.


Now the reason the Mursaat are hostile to the Titans is because it was predicted in the Flameseeker Prophecies that the Titans would be the Mursaats downfall. Its not to save Tyria but to save themselves. That doesnt make them the bad guys though - alot of races seem to look out for only themselves.


Lets remember that no groups other than Glint, the Mursaat and the Lich know of the Flameseeker Prophecies at this point in the story. So the groups act on their best intentions - the White Mantle are shown to be corrupt, murdering Lionguards with no punishment. Then the heroes find out the test they themselves helped with was a front to kill possible people who could carry out the Flameseeker Prophecies. The Shining Blade want to overthrow the Mantle believeing them to be corrupt and in doing this they want to return the Royal Family to power.


I would believe it would be the second: a highly evolved race that dont care about the other races. They watch over the gate to save themselves. In Prophecies thay are just a race that will do anything to save themselves - even manipulate a lower race. In the end we make them the bad guys through our persistance. 6 years after we destroy the Flameseeker and allow the Mursaat to be destroyed by the Titans, we find out there is still at least one Mursaat alive. Lazarus the Dire makes it clear that the mursaat will make humans pay in the future.

And he makes it clear in this quote what humans are to the Mursaat:

Both true (as far as I can tell) and good observations. I would have to classify the Mursaat as a "lesser of two evils" seeing how they kill people in order to prevent more deaths, which we do not know until the very end.

I would very much like to see more of the Mursaat and Seers, whether in GW2 or in some add-on in GW1 (yes, it is possible for ANet to go back on their word *again* and make more games for GW1). Sadly, events that take place before GW1 are all speculation really, would love to see an entire expansion that has us doing missions and quests that explain the past, similar to the BMP but much bigger and broader with what goes on.

This is a very interesting theory. I think it's very possible that The Mursaat and the Margonites had a great war in the Crystal Desert. We know that the Margonites are allied with the titans in the Domain of Anguish. By bringing Nightfall and turning the land to Torment, titans from the Realm of Torment would be all over Tyria, thus threatening the Mursaat.

Personally I agree with the thought that Mursaat are 'neutral'. They don't hate humans or any of the other sentient races. Their one and only goal is to prevent the Door of Komalie from being opened and the Flameseeker Prophecies from being fufilled. They seem like they really don't care at all about the White Mantle. As long as they supply sacrifices to the Bloodstone they don't care if they are seen as gods or not.

Mmmm ... We could push further into this theory, considering some facts we know about GW2


Let's consider some facts I will use as starting hypothesis, so correct me if i'm wrong ^^

-> The primeval dragons were among the first creatures in the world
-> Then came the 6 Gods, followed by the Forgotten
-> At last came mankind, dwarfkind and other races.

We know, according to the Seer, that Mursaats, Titans and Seers are ancient races. Margonites were humans before.

Assuming that the Forgotten, Mursaats and Seers were contemporary fellows, we could name the Primeval Dragons the "first generation", the 4 races I mentionned above the "second generation", and the active races in Tyria these days are the "third generation". With the exception of the Titans, it SOUNDS like a race mainly has interaction with races of its generation. It would lead to the theory introduced in the previous posts, that is to say Mursaats (as well as Seers and Forgotten) are mainly neutral to "third generation races" if these ones do not interfere in their schemes.

Do you think that this could be a global explanation that could fit in the Tyrian world ?

Someone, I think it was Quintus from the GWO Lore Forum, asked whether or not the Enchanted armors seen in the Crystal Desert were related to the Mursaat and the answer was no. However, they could go and use that similarity to their advantage to expand on the history of the Mursaat for all we know.

There is something wrong with your idea. Titans are formed from Tormented Souls, i.e. they are similar to Margonites in the fact that they were once something else and are now what they are.

So the revision of your "generations" layout (for races we know) would be:

Generation 1) Ancient Dragons/Gods (it is unknown which came first, or if at the same time, but they are both very very old)

Generation 2) Forgotten, ?Mursaat?, ?Seer?(seeing how it is never mentioned the Mursaat and Seers were around as long as the Forgotten, this is actually speculation, the Mursaat and Seer could be the 3rd generation, and humans being in the 4th), Charr(they are as old as the Forgotten according to the Ecology of the Charr)

Generation 2.5) Titans

Generation 3) Humans, Tengu, Dwarves, Centaur, Norn, Asura

Generation 3.5) Margonites, Wardens, Oni

Generation 4) Sylvari

This chart only lists known sentient races (as far as I can remember at the moment, there may be more, and many more that can be argued to be sentient races but unsure)

Regarding the fort at Abaddon's Mouth, it seems to me to be either fully or partially constructed by the Mursaat, you can see Jade shipments arriving on the docks in the place where you free Leah Stone.
Also I have no doubt that the seals, also made of jade, were built by the Mursaat.
The Jade armors that spawn when Markis is attacked at the Iron Mines are initially inside similar structures as those seen at the fort. Not to mention that they themselves are made of jade.
Where the jade "technology" comes from though is an issue for debate probably; seeing as Abaddon's armor seems to be made of jade too, I doubt thats his own flesh when we see his hands for example at Abaddon's gate (I imagine him as a giant margonite with tentacles sprouting from his head).
I wonder though why is it that Canthan jade has bluish tint whereas Tyrian is dark crimson.

It could be mission creep, or the realisation that kicking out the Mantle wasn't enough - they'd need something to fill the power vacuum, and reinstating the royal family is probably more likely to garner support than appointing someone random.

Keep in mind, too, that it wasn't discovered there were survivors of the royal family until after we sided with the Shining Blade...

Regarding the Titans... Can someone actually cite them as being referred to as an ancient race? The impression I've always had of them is that they were constructed by Abaddon after his imprisonment in Torment.

From wiki

An ancient race nearly as old as the Forgotten. Although that is not 100% credible. I'll look for other sources for that some other time.

Aye, an ingame or in-lore source would be much better. That particular paragraph was written when people didn't know what the Titans were, thought the connection between the Charr and Titans was a lot older than it actually was, and, in fact, when there was mass speculation of a connection between the Titans and the Giganticus Lupicus.

Found another thing to help clear the Titans as being Ancient. From Ecology of the Charr...

And of course, we all know that the Charr's gods were the titans, so I can stop there.

200 years before the Searing (202 years before post) is the current oldest record of the Titans. The only other mention of an Ancient titan would be by the Order of Whispers. That titan was captured about 100 years prior to Nightfall.

So they are ancient, but not as ancient as the other "ancient" races (Mursaat, Seer, Charr, Forgotten) that we know of.

I'd probably be inclined to move Generation 3 to Generation 2.5 (it's unclear just how old they are compared to the others - humans, for instance, may actually be as old as the Forgotten for all we know, just arriving in Tyria at a later time. There is no mention of humans being created anywhere in the timeline - the first mention is 'colonising' Cantha a thousand years after the appearance of the serpents, implying they came from somewhere else.) Dwarves I'd be tempted to move up to Generation 2, or even Generation 1.5 along with the Destroyers - events in EOTN imply that they were created as a form of counter to the Destroyers, but were put in a flesh-and-blood form in order to multiply afterwards. If it wasn't for the Stone Summit rebellion, they may not have needed help to fell the Great Destroyer... but I digress. The point I'm making is that, while it is possible they were made after the Ancient Dragons went into hibernation as an insurance policy, it seems likely they were made for the actual fighting.

This makes Generation 3 the Titans, Margonites, and Wardens, the first two are known to date from the time of the war between the gods, and the Wardens appear to have evolved from humans putting them firmly in a 'later' category. The Oni, if they did in fact only appear after the Jade Wind, should probably remain pushed back to Generation 3.5, or maybe even lumped into Generation 4 with the Sylvari. (Chronologically, this makes sense - the Jade Wind was only 200 years ago while the Margonites were created over a thousand years ago - the Oni are thus closer to the Sylvari in age than the rest of Generation 3 with the possible exception of the Wardens. The difference between 'appeared before the game' and 'appeared afterwards' is a difficult one to ignore, though.)

I think you misunderstand the point of the .5 generations that I put in. Those generations are meant as "offshoot" generations, beings created originally by those in the generation directly above them.

The Forgotten, Seers, Charr, and Mursaat are known to be Ancient, the other races are not proven to be ancient, but might be. The titans is really the only iffy "race" in consideration of the placement. There are races that might go into Generation 2 that are in Generation 3 (Dwarves and Asura mainly), however how old they are is not yet proven. I would think that the Dwarves at least can go into the Generation 2 category, but as it cannot be proven, I put them into the category we know they can be in, same for the Asura.

You seem to be taking the .5 generations as later generations than the one above it, but earlier than the one below it. This is not the case as I said above.

Actually, I was taking them as 'later, but not a LOT later'. There is, for instance, a gap of at least two thousand years between your generations 3 and 4, while the line between 2 and 3 is heavily blurred.

Still, by your logic, Dwarves would definitely appear to be 1.5, as all indications appear that they were made as a weapon against the (servants of the) Ancient Dragons. The Titans become interesting... one could argue that they should be 1.5 as well, being created by Abaddon, but they were created from the souls of later generations...

...although... Idea!

What if the Titans are Generation 1.5, and those serving Abaddon were a corrupted version of the original design, with the originals being used by the old gods in the war against the Titans? Under this interpretation, and coincidnetally bringing the discussion back on topic, the Mursaat-Titan antagonism can be traced back into antiquity by hypothesising that the Mursaat were actually a servitor race to the Ancient Dragons... which would certainly explain why they were so eager to stamp out worship of the gods.

The first half, I only have one question on. How is my logic leading to the Dwarves being an "offshoot" of the Gods? That being, gods later becoming Dwarves, which is how I set up the Generation set-up. Humans can become Margonites, Oni, or Wardens (amoung other things), souls (currently, of any race) can be twisted into Titans.

The second thought, you lost me completely. Abaddon twisted Titans (which are, by nature already twisted), and the Old Gods used the original Titans in the war against the Titans? There is no "War against the Titans," the only wars the gods were a part of, as we know, are the Old Gods vs Abaddon, which led to (or combined with) the Forgotten vs Margonites. There is no mention of the Titans in a war that I recall, except for antagonizing the Charr to attack the Humans, but that is far from a "war against the Titans."

Also, what support do you have for the Mursaat being followers of the Ancient Dragons? I would like to think that the concept of Abaddon being a Mursaat before god-hood - which caused the other Mursaat to think that they can ascend to god-hood, which led to them abandoning the Old Gods - is a much better hypothesis. Or the idea that the Mursaat are "the lesser of two evils" and don't follow any gods but themselves (a combination of atheism and egoism), and guard the Door of Komali for whatever possible reason there is (fighting Abaddon or not knowing what is behind that gate, but knowing it will lead to their destruction). Those later two ideas have a little more standing then the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, especially how there are no dragon references in the Tarnished Coast, and one very small one in the Maguuma Jungle.

...All of you have lost me. It seems incredibly unlikely that the Mursaat ever followed Abaddon, although it's a possibility considering he is a God of Secrets, Water, and Knowledge. All of which really seem to fall in line with traits of the Mursaat, that is knowledgeable, secretive, but water only fits in that it is powerful magically. As mentioned by Bahltek in the Mehtani Keys.

An interesting thought that came to mind while reading this, about the Jade the Mursaat use in their structures on the Ring of Fire Islands Chain and Abaddon. Abaddon and the Five Gods had their war over how Abaddon distributed the magic and they sealed Abaddon in the Realm of Torment then sealed the aspects of magic he wrongly distributed into the Bloodstones. The Jade the Mursaat use has a similar shade to Abaddon's armor, this same Jade can be seen on or above the Bloodstones. What if, and this may simply lie in the fact that Abaddon is far too huge to display entirely in-game, his body/armor was used to create the Bloodstones?

In relation to the Titans and their age..

And about the generation thing..

I think it goes:

Earliest specimens known:
Gods
Ancient Dragons
Giganticus Lupicus

Early specimens:
Glint
Forgotten-Summoned from across the Mists
Charr
Titans
Mursaat
Seers

In-between Early and Middle:
Dwarves

Middle specimens:
Humans
Tengu
Wardens
Margonites
Druids
Asura
Norn
Dredge
Grawl
Oni
Centaur

Final specimens:
Sylvari

Those groups are in order from age. Oldest being first and youngest being last.

Thank you for finding that source Leon, I knew there was a mention to them being as old as the Forgotten, but couldn't remember where.

And for the generation thing, that's basically what I meant(except for the Dwarven placement of course), but I included subspecies, which all came from other species being twisted or changed in some way. And you just expanded it to include the other sentient and semi-sentient(I'm looking at you Grawls) as well in the list.

Essentially, by apparently being directly created by the Gods as a weapon, the same way Primordius apparently created the Destroyers as weapons. Most races, however, are not so directly tied to the gods - according to history, even the Forgotten were brought here from elsewhere rather than created.

It's a wild theory, I know, but it goes roughly like this:

You say the Titans are twisted creatures by definition, but do recall that's just from the viewpoint of all mention of them being after Abaddon's fall. Before then, the practise of creating Titans may have been more wholesome than it was afterwards.

Furthermore, there's the question of just what the Realm of Torment actually is. We see it as a prison, but Kormir didn't simply seal it back up after she ascended - she's instead trying to take over. Why? Well, why was it used as Abaddon's prison in the first place? Could it be that what would later become the Realm of Torment was Abaddon's realm before he rebelled, and the other gods simply sealed him up within - thus, Kormir needs to take possession in order to fully regain his power rather than having an empty-for-millennia Realm of knowledge to move to?

Taking this viewpoint, we have the Titans... which, with our current knowledge, were created as weapons by Abaddon, but which according to the Forgotten are similar to them in age. Could they have been creations of Abaddon early on? If so, what were they made for?

Which brings us to the Mursaat. By all evidence, they're not loyal to Abaddon, or they shouldn't have had anything to fear from Abaddon at all. But they're clearly not loyal to the gods, either - in fact, the prime servant of the gods, Glint, was willing to allow a weakening of Abaddon's prison in order to allow the Titans to wipe them out. Why?

Maybe the Gods know that the Ancient Dragons are stirring, and this has all been a Xanatos Gambit to prepare for this. One obvious benefit they've gained is a replacement for Abaddon. But with the Mursaat being a third faction entirely, seperate from both Abaddon and the Five, is it that much of a stretch to consider that the Mursaat may be connected to the third big faction out there? Under this interpretation, the willingness to loose the Titans upon the Mursaat makes more sense - they didn't really seem to be out to make humanity extinct during Prophecies, but if they were going to rally to the Ancient Dragons when they awoke, taking such risks to take them down makes more sense.

And then we come back to the Titans themselves... which, apparently, just happen to be the perfect weapon to use against the Mursaat. If the reason for this was that they were originally created to use against them, this both explains their age and their abilities. Maybe they, and their process of creation, was less 'evil' than it was after Abaddon's fall, or maybe it was just as bad and the gods felt the ends justified the means - possibly creating them from the souls of volunteers who fell to the Mursaat.

This line of thought meanders across the timeline a bit, so to help organise it, this would be the series of events:

1) Conflict between the Ancient Dragons and the Gods
2) The Gods find that the Mursaat are decimating their own servitors with Spectral Agony.
3) The Titans are created in Abaddon's domain as a counter, but for one reason or another, are not able to wipe out the Mursaat at that time.
4) The Seers continue fighting the Mursaat without the aid of the Titans, but are slowly losing. At some point (possibly after #5, and possibly this whole point is after #5, with the war being conducted alongside Titans until Abaddon's rebellion) the Mursaat take over this side of the Door of Komalie and fortify it to prevent the Titans from being used against them again.
5) Abaddon rebels, and is imprisoned within his domain. If the Titans were ever 'good' creatures, they are twisted by this process, with further Titans being created by the torture of souls unlucky enough to end up in Torment.
6) Glint puts the Flameseeker Prophecies into action, allowing the Vizier to trick a group of heroes to allow him to reach the Door before those same heroes disperse the Titan armies thus released before they can do too much damage to anyone other than the Mursaat.
7) Kormir ascends
8) As the Ancient Dragons take over large parts of the world, the White Mantle, and possibly survivors of the Mursaat, continue to harass Kryta.

Your mis-interpreting what I meant as an "offshoot." By what you said, all of the races are "offshoots." As they are all created, whether as weapons or not, by the gods. That is not how I meant it. As I said, humans can become the "offshoots," Gods do not become something else, so there would be no "1.5" generation in accordance to my list.

Note: For a summary of what I'm saying, just scroll down to the bottom of my post.

There is no evidence to support this, so it's more of a hypothesis then a theory . Also, I do not believe that the Titans were created by other means, as, like I said, there is nothing to support this, and most of the Titans we know of were created before the fall of Abaddon (and if any are created after his fall, those created before his fall are the same as those after).

This is actually what I took the Realm of Torment to be like. Before Abaddon's imprisonment, I believe that the Realm of Torment was not what it is now, but became morphed due to his agony and frustration at his imprisonment.

Note: It never said that Abaddon created them, it is said that Titans are made from Tormented Souls. It could be a natural formation, like with the Menos from Bleach, where a bunch of hollows fight each other and then merge together. Titans can be formed from a number of Tormented Souls merging together.

I think the Mursaat are more Atheist than followers of the Ancient Dragons. They never mention the Ancient Dragons, not even in Eye of the North, and they never really mention the Old Gods either. As far as we know, the Mursaat have no knowledge of the Gods or the Dragons, and can just be acting as gods in order to fulfill their needs, such as trying to prevent the extinction of their race, foretold in the Flameseeker Prophecies.

If the gods knew that that Ancient Dragons were stirring, wouldn't they try to prevent such a thing before they woke up? Also, why would the Gods want the Titans freed? They were only freed to fulfill the prophecies. And yes, it is that much of a stretch really. With no proof, it will always be a big stretch, and I'm sure the Mursaat fanatics over at GWO would flame and rip apart this argument of yours until no tomarrow. Also, I think it is safe to say that no race worships the Ancient Dragons out of two reasons. First, the Ancient Dragons are older than the first known race to be on the world of Tyria, the Forgotten, the only race that might have served them would be the Giganticus Lupicus. Second, it has been said that the Ancient Dragons do not care for any life in the world, they only care about themselves and bringing about destruction. They wouldn't have a need, and probably wouldn't want, an "inferior" race serving them.

Note: The Eidolons have a natural resistance to the Mursaat as well, it is not just the Titans. With that said, it could be coincidence, or it could be the fact that Titans are from torment, so agony doesn't phase them. It seems that they were created by themselves, not as a weapon. Also, seeing how they are from the Foundary of Failed Creations, if they were weapons, why would they be "Failed Creations?" Seeing how they would have been able to do their job. There is also the fact that the Seers and the Titans are also enemies, so the idea that the Titans were used to help fight the Mursaat is out of the window in terms of helping the Seers.

The Bolded parts are what I cannot agree with. First, as I stated, they are made from Tormented Souls, not by the gods. Second, as stated, the Seers and Titans are enemies. Third, there is no mention of the Titans being used in the war against the 5 Gods, only known forces are the Margonites. For the Underlined part, the Door of Komali had to of been way after Abaddon's imprisonment, seeing how the Door is sealed by the Bloodstone, which was made after Abaddon's fall. Also, it was at least 20 years after the Exodus that the Volcano erupted and spread the Bloodstones around.


Overall, the main things that can shoot down your argument, are:
1) The Seers and Titans are enemies.

2) The Titans are not created by Abaddon, but by Tortured Souls, as they are made after Abaddon as well, his realm just became the new place for them (it is possible for Titans to be created anywhere that has tortured souls, most likely in mass).

3) Titans are held in the Foundary of Failed Creations, and if Titans were meant to be weapons against the Mursaat, than they wouldn't be failures.

4) There is no mention of the Mursaat worshiping the Ancient Dragons, not even in Eye of the North, they act as though they really are gods (in other words, they have BIIIIG egos).

5) It is most likely that the Mursaat only kept the Titans locked up because of the Prophecies, which were just random visions that Glint had, she never pointblank stated that she wanted the Titans released, she said that it was going to happen, and it did. She just played the role of the active observer really.

Adam Mursaat turn one of his ribcage bones to Eve Mursaat. And they woohoo with each other all night long to produce Baby Mursaat. Thats how it begins.

Just replying to the individual counters:
1) Abaddon and the Five Gods are enemies. They weren't two millennia ago. The same could be true for the Seers and Titans - that the Seers realise the Titans are a danger to everyone now doesn't mean they couldn't have worked together when Abaddon was playing nicely with everyone else.

2) Do we actually know how a Titan is created? If it IS spontaneous, than clearly the theory that they were a weapon of the Gods is shot as they create themselves independant of the gods. If they need to be shaped by someone else - Abaddon's servants or former servants, for example - then the hypothesis is still good. So the question here is - do they form spontaneously, or does there need to be something to shape it?

3) Abaddon didn't seem to think they were failures... This could explain why they weren't used until the Flameseeker Prophecies, though - if there was something about them that made them unsuitable to be used at the time they were made, that Abaddon either fixed or didn't care about.

Really, we don't know how the Foundry got its name. It might be connected to something else entirely. (Yes, that's grasping at straws, but it's not impossible.)

4) There's very little mention of the Mursaat at all. it's not impossible that this is something in the Mursaat's history that they don't care to advertise... or maybe that they've forgotten themselves. But really, all we know of the Mursaat (outside of their combat abilities) is that they sacrificed Chosen to power their constructs, were the power behind the White Mantle, and can apparently split their essence into their followers to hide.

5) Possible... especially if, given 3), they were never actually deployed. However, Glint did more than just pass on the predictions - she informed the Seers, and while they helped clean up afterwards, they were actively involved in getting the players to the Door. The impression I get was that Glint not only made the prophecies, she and her allies were actively involved in making them come to pass.

Actually the Seers and Titans are never reffered to as a common enemy. The only time a direct Seer vs Titans plot comes out is when the Ancient Seer wants the Armageddon Lords ,who are leading the forces into the portals, destroyed. So it is true they could of once been neutral to each other.

A Titan is formed by Tormented Souls clumped together and it then takes on a construct that changes with its environment. It would appear the Margonites are executing Forgotton Prisoners in there in order to form Titans, with The Fury commanding them.

However the Foundry was not always known as the Foundry of Failed Creations - it used to be a prison to the Margonites before Abaddon began regaining his ground allowing them to break free and The Fury to twist the Foundry into what it is now. So it would appear the Margonites are helping the creation of Titans but we dont know where the original origin of the Titans was.

See above. I always thought the Foundry was only given the name Failed Creations by the Forgotton who view the forming of Spirits into such monsters a "failed creation". Abaddon has obviously put the Titans to good use in the destruction of Arah and the Flameseeker Prophecies and doesnt view them as failures - they make up a large part of his forces.


That is true we dont know anything about the Mursaats history leading up to their win over the Charr in Kryta. We know they had knowledge of the Prophecies but we dont know how they gained that knowledge.

Actually, doing a bit of research cropped up this tidbit:

So that's where the name came from. The failed creations are the location, not what's in it.

Also:

That implies to me that the Titans don't arise from tortured souls spontaneously - some act if creation is in fact required. So they're not formed by tortured souls but rather formed from them.

It should also be noted that all information we really get is biased about the Mursaat, the Realm of Torment, and basically all of our enemies. Because we get our information on what our allies - mostly the Forgotten in this case - know, we only know so much about them. However, what my main point is that, with the little we do have, such stretched out theories should not be considered until we have more information.

Also, about the "dark ritual" to create Titans. First, it says powerful Titans, not all Titans. Second, that is as far as the Forgotten know, so it may not actually be accurate. Also, it is possible that "clumping together" (as Free Runner calls it), like the Menos from Bleach do (the Menos fight each other and evolve from constantly consuming other Hollows), is the "dark ritual." To some, the gladiators were "inhuman" due to the nature, just like that, the merging of souls to form twisted beings can be seen as "dark" by the Forgotten.

Not to mention the definition of "ritual," which one meaning is: "any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner" (defination 8 of dictionary.com, the rest being books, religious rites, and whatnot). By going with either a "religious rite" or a "behavior regularly performed," it can easily be done without the interference of the Fury and his minions, or they can simply provoke the souls into doing them. In other words, a ritual can be performed spontaneously, with or without the help of those not taking part in the ritual (in this case, the Fury and his minions).

Something interesting that should be taken into consideration is the fact that the Fury is a follower of Dhuum. Dhuum was overthrown by Grenth due to being unjust and torturing souls just for the sake of torturing them. From this fact, it may be that Dhuum actually discovered the Titans or created them himself while torturing souls. His unjust actions could possibly have been research for all we know.

About the Mursaat and the Ancient Dragons. That connection is tenuous at best, impossible at least. The Ancient Dragons were not thought up until at least the time of Eye of the North's creation, the game not the actual structure. This being the case makes it practically impossible to connect the Mursaat to them unless they retcon the story to make this the case. However, as it is now with the little bit of fashioning they've done to the story, they've made it very clear they want to avoid connecting existing pieces of the lore to these Ancient Dragons.

Probably because they knew it would sound outrageous that all of a sudden the Ancient Dragons exist and guess what? They've been connected to all these existing beings without any mention!

Also, and I know this response is rather random but that's the way I do things, about the Titans formation. Are you referring to their physical formation or their spiritual? Either way, Free Runner and Azazel have already given the actual story behind that.

The Seers..We know just about NOTHING about. We know they've existed as long if not longer than the Mursaat because they waged a war against them. Other than that, we know nothing. A good point you made about the Seers, though, is that they were sort of "informed" by Glint. I personally wouldn't say informed, but they knew of the Flameseeker Prophecies. This is especially interesting, considering this one comment by the Seer we meet in the Iron Mines of Moladune. The comment being: "If the prophecies are to be believed, you will do what my entire race could not."

If the prophecies are to be believed. Why, exactly, would they need to be believed? That's the question that consistently comes up whenever I hear this comment from the Seer.

In relation to the Realm of Torment comments..I think it's safe to say that it was created as soon as Abaddon was banished there. It was a very quick job done by the Gods it would seem, but it was done as soon as they knew they had Abaddon on the verge of defeat. My only evidence to support this is the fact that many things were pulled down there with him, why would this be the case if it was already his domain? And why would there be gates locking him into his own realm? The only thing I can find that really swipes the legs out from under this belief is the description of the Shadow Nexus..

...At any rate, I think this pretty much covers my thoughts over the last few bits of discussion.

Well found, GmrLeon. It's possible that they started with Abaddon's domain and added more around it in order to make a prison, but that does imply they at least did more than simply binding Abaddon and sealing the entrances.

Interesting theory regarding Dhuum and the titans, too. As for "if the prophecies are to be believed" - I don't think this means that the prophecy needs to be powered by belief (even though they did - they came to pass because the Vizier believed them. I have a suspicion Glint didn't release the part about him dying and the Titans being sealed away again, or maybe he thought he could avert that) just that the Seers aren't 100% certain that they're going to come true.

Oh, we certainly don't have enough information to consider it to be confirmed. But We don't have enough to disprove it either. It's still a possibility.

Essentially, this means we don't know for sure whether its spontaneous or not. The way I read it, though, it seems more likely that the Titans need to be created, although it is entirely possible that the Fury's minions simply put the building blocks together and let nature take its course.

However, that there is the possibility of this hypothesis being true doesn't discount mine. We just have two mutually exclusive hypotheses, neither of which can be proven at this time.

About the Prophecies, I think they "need to be believed" because they don't seem to be complete to each individual. I think that only certain parts were let out, mainly the trek from Ascalon to Kryta, the Ascension of the Chosen, the Ascendants fighting the Mursaat, the Shiverpeaks being "covered in blood," the Ascendants opening the Door of Komali which "holds a power to kill the Mursaat," and finally that power being the Titan Army.

Not all parts were known to all people, as if the Seer knew, I doubt that s/he would help the Chosen in releasing the Titans. Another concept to support not all of the Prophecies were known, or together, is that there is no singular collection of the prophecies, and Khilbron would probably avoid brining his own death (unless deep down inside he just wanted to die, but that's unlikely).

Also, points to Leon for remembering that part about Dhuum. I would have to think that Dhuum probably made the first titans, and that they serve him over Abaddon, but he "lent" the Titans to Abaddon to help him escape and get revenge.

And at Draxynnic, I wasn't saying your idea is impossible, I was saying it was unlikely, at least to my belief. (I really wish ANet can put in something to help explain this stuff).

There is a singular collection of the Flameseeker Prophecies, but they're only with Glint. If you look on the timeline provided in the Nightfall Manuscripts you'll see a date and line saying, Glint compiles the Flameseeker Prophecies. 272 AE, to be exact.

I was ignoring Glint when it comes to having the Flameseeker Prophecies really. Because obviously the one who made them should know the whole prophecy. But just because Glint knows the whole prophecy, doesn't mean that she did when she told certain groups (mainly Mursaat and Seers in this case) and it doesn't mean that when others learned of it, that it was from a completed source.

Even the wording in the timeline proves that Glint didn't know it all at once, compiles means putting together basically, so she had to put together the visions she had that became the Flameseeker Prophecies.

In that case, we agree. I'm fully aware that it's a pretty wild theory.

I just finished Saul's story and was wondering what happened to Saul?

I read some older posts but they are a little outdated and wanted to know if anyone had heard if Anet had released information about him showing up in GW2, or if he is part of the Ghosts of Ascalon book.

Do you think Anet left him alive for a reason? Or did they just decide it would be too brutal to kill him in the storyline and dont necessary have any plans for him?

AC