^nice catch lol.
Reducing the effictiveness of skill on usage, I must say that it would keep me even more away from BM than I already am
Blood Magic -- A change possible?
Turbobusa
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaek
u dun bip teh monks
u bip teh eles
so they can spam rodgorts without wastin their elite on ele attunement or mind blast Fail. If I ever see someone BiP/BR an Ele I'll leave the group.
u bip teh eles
so they can spam rodgorts without wastin their elite on ele attunement or mind blast Fail. If I ever see someone BiP/BR an Ele I'll leave the group.
Drakken Breathes Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDL
That would make any of the PvE uber HP bosses hilarious.
Cast Vamp gaze on the lich, gain 1500hp!
I'm sure they'd limit the amount to up to your own max.
(Which would again, suck, because like the current ravenous gaze, it'd require us to be low on health always.)
Cast Vamp gaze on the lich, gain 1500hp!
I'm sure they'd limit the amount to up to your own max.(Which would again, suck, because like the current ravenous gaze, it'd require us to be low on health always.)
Kaida the Heartless
It's about efficiency. You have 8 character slots in PvE. Using one elite for BiP is bad, it's even worse when one character slot is stuck using the blood line.
Yea, just about anything works in PvE, but I like to steamroll my missions as fast and as efficiently as possible. Darwinism I suppose.
Yea, just about anything works in PvE, but I like to steamroll my missions as fast and as efficiently as possible. Darwinism I suppose.
Kale Ironfist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
It's about efficiency. You have 8 character slots in PvE. Using one elite for BiP is bad, it's even worse when one character slot is stuck using the blood line.
Yea, just about anything works in PvE, but I like to steamroll my missions as fast and as efficiently as possible. Darwinism I suppose. It's not that bad to use Blood Magic, since it does have Order of Pain and Dark Fury, pumping up the power of all your physicals to massive proportions.
Of course, if you did have such a theoretical bar, you'd have huge sacrifice costs, that you'd need a fairly strong self-heal, or low max health combined with strong regeneration (or an attentive Monk and/or Ritualist for off-character healing).
Yea, just about anything works in PvE, but I like to steamroll my missions as fast and as efficiently as possible. Darwinism I suppose. It's not that bad to use Blood Magic, since it does have Order of Pain and Dark Fury, pumping up the power of all your physicals to massive proportions.
Of course, if you did have such a theoretical bar, you'd have huge sacrifice costs, that you'd need a fairly strong self-heal, or low max health combined with strong regeneration (or an attentive Monk and/or Ritualist for off-character healing).
Carinae
Nobody in their right mind runs a battery necro anymore. In fact, very few people run ele squads in any serious PvE situation. Therefore, running BiP->Ele is double-fail.
You might see a single water ele occasionally, usually because someone has an ele primary character and has to live with it. Ensign runs an ele primary. Ensign is special, however.
A necro can actually be useful in higher PvE areas: melee shutdown, pressure reduction, meat shields, even moderate DPS. Yes, you might throw your extra attribute points into Blood just for BRenewal, but that is reserved almost exclusively for monks, usually hero monks.
Get real. A battery necro? Sheesh.
EDIT: We all need to mind Ensign's sig regarding snaek's posts.
You might see a single water ele occasionally, usually because someone has an ele primary character and has to live with it. Ensign runs an ele primary. Ensign is special, however.
A necro can actually be useful in higher PvE areas: melee shutdown, pressure reduction, meat shields, even moderate DPS. Yes, you might throw your extra attribute points into Blood just for BRenewal, but that is reserved almost exclusively for monks, usually hero monks.
Get real. A battery necro? Sheesh.
EDIT: We all need to mind Ensign's sig regarding snaek's posts.
Drakken Breathes Fire
So yah, back to life steal, how do we negate retarded life stealing beyond our max health even on bosses, without becoming imba?
5-15% of a bosses health in shadow damage when life steal isn't possible because you're at your max, is pretty broken. There must be a set amount that comes into play if you're at 100% health and you can't steal life.
You should also only be able to steal up to your max, like grenths balance. Otherwise you're stealing, as previously mentioned 1500+ hp for nothing at all, and that's a STUPID amount of life shaved off of anything. It should NEVER get that high.
5-15% of a bosses health in shadow damage when life steal isn't possible because you're at your max, is pretty broken. There must be a set amount that comes into play if you're at 100% health and you can't steal life.
You should also only be able to steal up to your max, like grenths balance. Otherwise you're stealing, as previously mentioned 1500+ hp for nothing at all, and that's a STUPID amount of life shaved off of anything. It should NEVER get that high.
System_Crush
U know, [skill=text]Mark of Fury[/skill] will stack with [skill=text]Dark Fury[/skill], I never run with that many physicals though, so I never use the adrenaline boosters.
As for limiting the amount stolen, [skill=text]Grenth's Balance[/skill] is limited to half the difference between your health and the target, only if you have less health. Such a heavy and complicated situational requirement is not a good way to manage requirement.
How about a simple transferred number?
You steal X% of the foes current health, you can never steal more than 5*the energy cost of the spell?
As for limiting the amount stolen, [skill=text]Grenth's Balance[/skill] is limited to half the difference between your health and the target, only if you have less health. Such a heavy and complicated situational requirement is not a good way to manage requirement.
How about a simple transferred number?
You steal X% of the foes current health, you can never steal more than 5*the energy cost of the spell?
Drakken Breathes Fire
or how about just a number outright?
like (max 90-120)
like (max 90-120)
Trvth Jvstice
I can't think of a way to improve the Blood Magic line in a way that wouldn't cause an unbalance with it's use in PVP. Just a slight improvement on some skills and you would have blood spike teams again.
AND: Snaek read forum rule # 9. Do Not Abuse the English Language
AND: Snaek read forum rule # 9. Do Not Abuse the English Language
jayce
i think its safe to say that the life-stealing mechanic needs to meet a condition. its probably the only way to limit as much as possible any potential abuse. but it needs to be done in a way that does not render life-stealing near useless.
Ravenous Gaze is the skill that should probably define life-stealing in my opinion with a minor tweak. the skill is worthless unless, the condition is met, then it's dam near god-like. the life-stealing should follow suit. it is the best way that i can think of to limit abuse while, at the same time, finally being able to get some decent damage buffs out of the damage skills.
If you or your target is below 50% health, you steal health from that target. Otherwise you deal Shadow Damage.
this example does a few things. it can finish off targets after much of the work is done. it allows targets some protection against life-stealing spikes. it also makes abusing this mechanic extremely difficult. if you are going to sacrifice your own health for the purpose of abusing life-stealing, then you will have to go deep to do so.
my only concern is Infuse Health. but if anyone have any better ideas, then do tell. its just that i haven't seen one yet that is not too complex as far as possible coding that may have to be done.
Jayce Of Underworld
Ravenous Gaze is the skill that should probably define life-stealing in my opinion with a minor tweak. the skill is worthless unless, the condition is met, then it's dam near god-like. the life-stealing should follow suit. it is the best way that i can think of to limit abuse while, at the same time, finally being able to get some decent damage buffs out of the damage skills.
If you or your target is below 50% health, you steal health from that target. Otherwise you deal Shadow Damage.
this example does a few things. it can finish off targets after much of the work is done. it allows targets some protection against life-stealing spikes. it also makes abusing this mechanic extremely difficult. if you are going to sacrifice your own health for the purpose of abusing life-stealing, then you will have to go deep to do so.
my only concern is Infuse Health. but if anyone have any better ideas, then do tell. its just that i haven't seen one yet that is not too complex as far as possible coding that may have to be done.
Jayce Of Underworld
Drakken Breathes Fire
With a bit of thinking,
Here's what I've come up with for a re-hash of Life Stealing Direct Damage Skills for blood magic so far;
Vampiric Gaze; steal 5-15% health form target foe. (max 60.)
10 energy 1 sec cast time, 10 sec recharge.
Vampiric Swarm; Steal 5-15% health (max 60) from target foe and up to 2 others in the area.
15 energy 2 sec cast time, 15 second recharge.
Angorodons Gaze; energy and everything remains the same, life steal 5-15%
(max 60).
Life Transfer; For 6-12 seconds, Target Foe suffers from 3-8 health degeneration, you gain 3-8 health regeneration. If target foe is suffering from one or more conditions, you also suffer those conditions.
15 energy 3 sec cast time, 5 second recharge.
Ravenous Gaze; Steal 5-15% health from target foe. (max 60)
For every recharging blood magic spell steal an additional 5-15% health (max 90) If Target foe is suffering from one or more conditions, you also suffer those conditions.
5 energy, 1/4 sec cast time. 5 sec recharge.
Also for the orders line;
Change them all to shouts. Possible synergy with paragon.
Here's what I've come up with for a re-hash of Life Stealing Direct Damage Skills for blood magic so far;
Vampiric Gaze; steal 5-15% health form target foe. (max 60.)
10 energy 1 sec cast time, 10 sec recharge.
Vampiric Swarm; Steal 5-15% health (max 60) from target foe and up to 2 others in the area.
15 energy 2 sec cast time, 15 second recharge.
Angorodons Gaze; energy and everything remains the same, life steal 5-15%
(max 60).
Life Transfer; For 6-12 seconds, Target Foe suffers from 3-8 health degeneration, you gain 3-8 health regeneration. If target foe is suffering from one or more conditions, you also suffer those conditions.
15 energy 3 sec cast time, 5 second recharge.
Ravenous Gaze; Steal 5-15% health from target foe. (max 60)
For every recharging blood magic spell steal an additional 5-15% health (max 90) If Target foe is suffering from one or more conditions, you also suffer those conditions.
5 energy, 1/4 sec cast time. 5 sec recharge.
Also for the orders line;
Change them all to shouts. Possible synergy with paragon.
Turbobusa
I don't get your change to life transfer. You make it suck 3 times more than what it is already right now:
- It costs more
- 3 times the casting time
- You suffer the same conditions as your target. I think you want to make it work angorodon's gaze, but angorodon's gazes' bonus is meant to be triggered by condition drawn from allies, not those your team inflicted.
I'd rather have a longer recharge than this kind of drawback.
- It costs more
- 3 times the casting time
- You suffer the same conditions as your target. I think you want to make it work angorodon's gaze, but angorodon's gazes' bonus is meant to be triggered by condition drawn from allies, not those your team inflicted.
I'd rather have a longer recharge than this kind of drawback.
Drakken Breathes Fire
Okay all of you, STFU.
And Moloch? you don't need to encourage them.
Hi I'm blood magic and I'm broke, I need to be fixed.
discuss.
And Moloch? you don't need to encourage them.
Hi I'm blood magic and I'm broke, I need to be fixed.
discuss.
Kaida the Heartless
Hi blood magic! You should probably do less direct damage but support your party members in other ways!
Racthoh
Blood magic.
Not eles, not the whoever is contributing the damage to the group. Try to keep it on topic.
Not eles, not the whoever is contributing the damage to the group. Try to keep it on topic.
Moloch Vein
Things to consider:
The nerf to Order of the Vampire was a sloppy and unfair one. As it stands, you can no longer use Order of the Vampire in conjunction with Dark Fury. In essence, this makes Order of Pain better than its elite counterpart.
The malus of Order of the Vampire should be transferred to Order of Pain, with the following change:
"Party members under another Orders Enchantment spell are not affected."
By Orders, we understand Order of the Vampire, Order of Pain and Order of Apostasy, but not Dark Fury. If the game designers find dual OoA/OoV game-breaking, a change can be made to stop that.
The recharge of OoV should be removed.
Blood Magic also has no AoE hex. That limits its utility. Mark of Fury should be changed to "target+adjacent" if not "target+nearby". A cost increase would be acceptable.
Several of the Blood Magic DD/Life Steal skills could be changed completely in order to incorporate more utility to a one-dimensional line.
Example:
Blood Of The Aggressor: Hex spell. For x...y seconds, every time target foe attacks, you steal x...y health. (Yeah, I know, it's basically Insidious Parasite. That spell should have been in Blood anyway.)
Dark Pact: Hex spell. For x...y seconds target foe suffers -10 health degeneration.
The nerf to Order of the Vampire was a sloppy and unfair one. As it stands, you can no longer use Order of the Vampire in conjunction with Dark Fury. In essence, this makes Order of Pain better than its elite counterpart.
The malus of Order of the Vampire should be transferred to Order of Pain, with the following change:
"Party members under another Orders Enchantment spell are not affected."
By Orders, we understand Order of the Vampire, Order of Pain and Order of Apostasy, but not Dark Fury. If the game designers find dual OoA/OoV game-breaking, a change can be made to stop that.
The recharge of OoV should be removed.
Blood Magic also has no AoE hex. That limits its utility. Mark of Fury should be changed to "target+adjacent" if not "target+nearby". A cost increase would be acceptable.
Several of the Blood Magic DD/Life Steal skills could be changed completely in order to incorporate more utility to a one-dimensional line.
Example:
Blood Of The Aggressor: Hex spell. For x...y seconds, every time target foe attacks, you steal x...y health. (Yeah, I know, it's basically Insidious Parasite. That spell should have been in Blood anyway.)
Dark Pact: Hex spell. For x...y seconds target foe suffers -10 health degeneration.
Drakken Breathes Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
The nerf to Order of the Vampire was a sloppy and unfair one. As it stands, you can no longer use Order of the Vampire in conjunction with Dark Fury. In essence, this makes Order of Pain better than its elite counterpart.
The malus of Order of the Vampire should be transferred to Order of Pain, with the following change:
"Party members under another Orders Enchantment spell are not affected."
By Orders, we understand Order of the Vampire, Order of Pain and Order of Apostasy, but not Dark Fury. If the game designers find dual OoA/OoV game-breaking, a change can be made to stop that.
The recharge of OoV should be removed.
And just adding 'party members under another Necromancer shout are not affected.' (As Dark Fury remains an enchantment, problem solved no?)
Also allowing it to stack with Awaken the Blood and self enchants.
I think it has potential. *shrugs.*
Paragon//Necromancer party orders support anyone? XP
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
I don't get your change to life transfer. You make it suck 3 times more than what it is already right now:
- It costs more - 3 times the casting time - You suffer the same conditions as your target. I think you want to make it work angorodon's gaze, but angorodon's gazes' bonus is meant to be triggered by condition drawn from allies, not those your team inflicted. I'd rather have a longer recharge than this kind of drawback. Its pretty easy to tell which enemy has conditions on them or not. (Or even which ones you can handle with the life regeneration given by Life Transfer.) Necromancer also has more than enough ways of coping//rebounding his conditions away. (Or, better still with a secondary profession. Sure, you might pick up poison, disease and or bleeding, from an off placed life transfer, but with the changes to recharge alone, it can A be kept up indefinitely, STACKS with those conditions (to the maximum of 10) on the foe already suffering from them in the first place, AND now the monk, if any, has a nasty hex to remove from the already beaten to a pulp fool in question. Life Transfer+Angorodons Gaze+Plague Sending//Touch would be pretty much a given. Even at lvl 4 curses, you're shipping off 2 conditions to A target foe and adjacent foes. *Hums 'Tainted Love.'*
Moloch Vein
I'm not sure if Anet is willing to open yet another window for Paragon abuse :-/
Other suggestions: Spells to steal adrenaline.
Drakken Breathes Fire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
I'm not sure if Anet is willing to open yet another window for Paragon abuse :-/
Other suggestions: Spells to steal adrenaline. What would the necromancer do with adrenaline stolen? Perhaps he just gets another orders skill that makes his party steal adrenaline? If anything this should be a feature added to Order of the Vampire, since if can't stack with another enchantment, atleast make it slightly worth the sacrifice.
Trvth Jvstice
Stealing adrenaline would work well in the blood line since it is circulated in the blood stream after release from the adrenal gland. It would make sense for it to be converted to energy when stolen. A spell that takes all adrenaline from an enemy and those next to it would be converted to say, 15 energy depending on points put into Blood.
Moloch has mentioned using Necros for Mele, so he may have meant an actual adrenaline transference. Also since Blood necs often play a support role in a group, the stolen adrenaline could be passed to his group rather than to the Necro itself. Turbobusa
"something" speech(forgot the name)? paragon skill to transfer adrenaline
A n/p support build with make haste or something along those lines would be an awesome support build imo
Moloch Vein
Adreneline stealing skill could be used for adrenaline-denial. It could also be used to fuel adrenaline-based shouts. It would be possible to slot on a secondary too.
It would be skills that required actual thought on the part of the N in order to be effective, too. However Inspirational Speech doesn't transfer adrenaline, it just makes you lose all, and ally gains the same amount no matter how little you lost. Turbobusa
But a necro doesn't need adrenaline, giving away adrenaline while loosing yours doesn't really matters, does it?
EDIT: too bad it's in motivation... And I also end up with a curse based build... there goes my support build 
Moloch Vein
No, it doesn't, I was just pointing out that it wasn't an adrenaline "transfer" skill. It would have been better if it was. Like "lose all your adrenaline, target ally gains x...y% of what you lost". Also that skill in question is kinda terrible, far too long recharge to be of any practical use.
There are several "empty slot" skills in the Blood line that are never used for anything good and could easily be changed into something useful. Candidates for deletion and redesign: Barbed Signet Blood Bond (not a bad skill but could use a minor tweak or two) Blood of the Aggressor Dark Pact Demonic Flesh Mark of Subversion (this one is actually kinda good, but could use a slight boost) Opressive Gaze (ether-renewaled) Signet of Agony Touch of Agony Unholy Feast Vampiric Bite (this and its counterpart being changed to Touch-range Spells would solve a lot of griefing) Vampiric Touch Wallow's Bite
Kaida the Heartless
Well, if necromancers don't need to use adrenaline directly, think about what adrenaline does to the human body. Pain threshhold increase, extra speed, extra strength, etc; why not add some of these attributes after stealing adrenaline? For example:
Blood of the Aggressor: Steal 10-30 Health from target foe. Target foe loses 1-2 strikes of adrenaline, and you gain 5 seconds of 25% faster casting for each strike stolen. Things like these could also include a period of time of damage reduction to keep the necromancers a little less combustable, or even some kind of temporary attribute increase to mimic an increase in strength. |