Was it wrong or was it just Guild Wars?

You don´t get it, right?

i would have ressed him and piss everyone off instead of just one person

why piss 1 off when u can get 6 others

It was his drop. I would have recommended zoning out and letting him get it on his own once he rezzed at a shrine.

He screwed over the group, so he's not entitled to help from the group anymore. But you don't take someone else's stuff unless they already owe you something. That's just stealing.

Having said that, if what you say is accurate, I wouldn't lose a whole lot of sleep over what you did either. Put your change in the donation box next time you buy something from McDonald's.

I guess one could argue that he "stole" your time, but I see that more as a potential cost of playing with PUGs. They can just waste your time in many different ways. It's the nature of the beast.

Honor does not come from shoving gold items up the arse of idiots.

To the OP: YOU were in that situation, and all of you thought it was the right thing to do.

But if you feel bad about it, veiled the facts and made them look nicer in your favor, just came here to get some backup while your conscience hurts you: Shame on you, kid.

I was on another side of a similar situation before Factions came out.

One of the B/P rangers in our Tombs team didn't seem to speak English very well. He never said a word and followed directions randomly. He over aggroed a few times, but my interpretation was that he was new to the run, and not trying to deliberately hurt the team.

One of the guys on the team started verbally abusing the guy. He assumed the non-speaking player was asian, and started using a lot of asian slurs against the guy and started telling everyone else not to res the guy. One other player on the team started to agree and these two guys were repeatedly ragging on the guy and telling the monk not to heal him and that no one should rez, etc.

We get to the final room where the greens drop. The non-speaking player has a lot of DP at this point, and with no healing dies prior to us aggroing the Darkness. The "leader" tells everyone not to rez and we start the final fight. I think about it a second and rez the dude. Quiet dude gets 2 green drops including a Victo's Axe - a valuable drop back then. The leader goes on a rampage. "WHO REZZED HIM!!?!! YOU F****** C**** LOVER!!!"

QFT

Why aren't there more people like you in the world?

Once I was helping guildmate at doing some quest at Desolation, when he went afk. Well, me and my Guildleader who had also come started to kill stuff near him so he wouldn't killed, and what do you know, nice greenies drops for the AFKer... Well, as he was awaya a long time, the timer went off and I took the item and kinda hoped he'd never see it dropped to him. However, he saw it and asked me to give it back. Of course I did, but now after he left guild I feel like I should have kept it anyways >

If what you said was true then, whilst the system assigned him the item, he did not earn it and therefore his right to it was forfeit.

In my opinion the players took into account a situation that the system was never designed for and acted accordingly.

Someone earlier seemed to think that everything is black and white. Unfortunately it's not.

Well this is a great rule to follow.

- If I have to ask if I did the right thing, I probably did not.

This is the Problem With pug Groups. When I (and my heroes) pug I always bring Vengeance. You die, I (or my hero) turn you into minions, I/heroes rez you, rinse and repeat, I did my part. If all players in a Pug brought vengeance and only 1 monk had rebirth, the OP's situation would happen WAY less, people would pay attention or get to die over and over. Especially when after vengeance wears off someone informs the party "noob down".

You did the right thing by rezzing him.

You did the wrong thing by purposefully waiting around for 10 minutes and picking up his loot.

Once you finished your clear, you should have simply left and allowed him to auto rez so he could claim his loot.

As someone else said, two wrongs do not make a right. It might feel good at the time, but nonetheless it doesn't make it better.

I agree on not reizing him during the quest since he put the goal endanger but afterwards I would have simple left. No way I am hanging around for 10 minutes for a crappy elemental sword.

At the most would have picked his sword up and ran into the biggest mob I could find and drop it there un-identified. About learning his lesson, not going to happen, wammo never learn.

Why do people still do this norn farm? I signed on as a HB once, worked my butt off keeping leeroy Inc. alive and remembered why I never pug. Elite Dungeon books are so much easier and more profitable.

To respond to a few points raised by prior posters;

First off he was already dead, and left dead, before the sword dropped. Secondly had the item been of 'lesser value' (like I said a R11 Ele Sword isn't great but I knew that alot of people joining a PUG would probably welcome such a drop) I would not have ressed him either, I'd have just zoned back to Olafstead like I usually do at the end of a run without thinking about it. Thirdly, someone asked if I would have res'd the other players had it happened to them; I mentioned this in my initial post but I would certainly have ressurected the monks. To add to that statement I would have also have res'd all the other Ursan, albeit without as much fervor as the monks. Fourthly; I know not what was going through the players mind when he was aggroing all the extra mobs but I do know that he was a Rank 7 Norn, so had probably, but not definately, been on Ursan runs before. Maybe he was just an innocent noob still getting to grips with either Ursan runs or even just human parties in general. Several members of our party had asked him to not aggro so much and to stick with the group more but obviously he didn't do this - he could however understand us since he seemed to type English competently (albeit 'txt' english "u kno wot im sayin yeh?"),

I quite like this quote; "If I have to ask if I did the right thing, I probably did not." Soothing a guilty conscience was not a purpose of my posting here (although maybe sub-consciously it was, either way I didn't lose any sleep last night heh); personally I think the guy 'deserved' it, even if some people do think that makes me evil or just plain bad. What was interesting at the time was that all 6 other party members stayed to claim the loot as well (my brother was going to leave because he couldn't be bothered waiting the 10 minutes but I persuaded him to stay) - whilst that isn't exactly a broad cross-section of the Guild Wars community I thought it perhaps significant.

Added; to answer R.Shayne's question about "Why do people still do this norn farm?": Having done them on a couple of characters I know of several people who are also doing them that are competent players whom I can join up with. Completing runs with a decent group takes maybe 40 minutes and without dying can net you ~11k Norn points - that makes it probably the fastest way to get R10, with a decent group it is also quite easy. I have done the monking myself on a different char and found that with a decent group it takes pretty much no effort, just stand back and use GoLE & Heal Party whilst keeping HB up. Since I was a mere 2,667 points away from R10 and none of my aquiantances were online, except my brother, we decided to join a total PUG. Perhaps the runs aren't as profitable but gold/platinum has never really been that much of an issue for me - if I do want more of it I can think of more efficient ways to get it.

The guy was being a jerk, leave him dead.

But I would have rez'd him to get the item he partially earned, because he did do part of the work to get to that part of the dungeon/instance/whatever. How many hours did it take to get that far? How many other items did he get from drops? My guess is that it took a long time and he got nothing else of value from the drops. So you pretty much just wasted hours of his time because he PO'd you.

You don't have to be the bigger wo/man, but it definitely makes the game a better place when you are.

I seem to be in a very small minority here -- at least of people who are answering the post; but, I believe it was wrong and would not have done it. Leave him dead while fighting the bosses? Yes. But when finished I would have collected my stuff and mapped out, giving him the opportunity to rez at the shrine and collect his own loot. Morals can exist within MMO's, even among punitive players.

There is a little skill named "Unyielding aura" made purely for dealing with grief aggroers.

That said, i have been left on the floor by douches once so they could take my stuff. I never got any warnings, they just did. They must have been guildies.

You too fall into the catagory of just being as much a bad person by what you just said. When you think two wrongs make a right then you too become just like the rest of the riff raff out there. You even show it in your writings and your online personality now. I would not want to know you or group with you ingame or out either. You are just as bad as the rest. And you know the other saying: Birds of a feather flock together. <grin>

Agreed.

Regarding "getting banned", I've seen some crazy bans happen in my time. You may not be perma-banned but you may get a suspension of other sorts.

Seems like Justice to me. Enjoy your new sword.

Allow me to educate you on real world politics and justice. If a person murders is he not also murdered or removed from society as a danger? If a country continuously fires missiles at your air planes when it has promised not to do so, do you not invade it and topple the government shooting at your planes? If someone signs a treaty to have no aggression against your person your people, your property yet continuously defy that treaty is he in violation of that treaty? If you go through another means of enforcing a treaty and place agreed upon sanctions against a country that is violating a treaty and the people who are supposed to uphold those sanctions are profiteering from those sanctions are they aiding and abetting the enemy? How do you treat your allies when they aid and abet the enemy?

Seems to me when you enter a PUG you agree to act within a reasonable degree of restraint to help and aid those in your group with a common goal in mind, this act is an act of civil responsibility. However if someone violates that non-spoken agreed upon treaty of civil responsibility then why should they profit from someones else's efforts who is acting within the spirit of civil responsibility?

In my mind the OP was not only acting within the Spirit of the Game, but demonstrating the need to uphold civil agreements and treaties in the real world as well. If you violate the treaty then you should pay the consequences of agreeing to freely enter that treaty. The "Leeroy" declared war on everyone therefore he does not get the spoils, he looses instead.

Pugs are bad.

GloryAhole - Real world really doesn't effect games. Most these people prob haven't hit puberty yet, let alone seen 'the real world'

Are you kidding me? Actions and consequences are the very foundation of our moral system and of our laws.

We only know a half of story (Rashomon ftw)... and yes i'd rezzed him.

The 'wrong/right' options are so boring. I prefer what would I do. And I probably would do the same thing. Give the jerk a lesson. Now he won't probably do the same thing again. If you had rezzed him/given him the sword, he would probably still grief with his pathetic aggro abilities.
Two wrong do not make right by ass- if you're running around the street, knocking down the elderly and stealing kids' toys, I'll gladly kick you in the teeth. Even though this may be "wrong" for idealists.
But I don't have to care about this, I'm chaotic good.

Don't think you'll get banned from that, IMHO...

TBH we have a similar mindset in the alliance. If you're a leeroyer who doesn't care about the others (hey your monks aren't machines) and don't follow instructions then complain we suck... well sorry, if you fall on our alliance monks you WILL die. And not get res'ed. Whine all you want, ping it for 10 minutes, if you were a retard we WILL be retards with you, just so you learn your lesson.

It's the only way some people learn, and it's sad...

I think that's the best solution I've seen.

I definately wouldn't have the gall to stand around in front of the guy waiting to claim his drop, no matter how much of an arse he was. If I was really annoyed, I probably would have just left him to get it on his own as well.

If he wasn't a totally rude jerk, I'd probably have ressed him though.

Consequences imposed by someone without the authority to impose those consequences is called "vigilante justice". It supplants the overall norms of a society with the individual beliefs of a single person, who decides to "dish out punishment" on what he or she believes is right or wrong.

That is what the basic tenant of "two wrongs do not make a right" is all about.

In each of the examples you provided above, the action taken was not done out of "revenge", it was taken to prevent further harm to yourself from the individual or country in question. In the OP's situation, they already removed the ability of the individual to "harm" them by not rezzing him.

No. I'm talking about the fundamental fact that in human society, there ARE consequences for your actions. Even back when we were primitive cavemen, so to speak, we had actions and consequences. This results in us developing a moral belief system on how to treat others. A place with no consequences will let people do whatever they want with no morality. See Charles Dawkins' (the man is brilliant) discussion on why humans have morals.

Yes, there should be consequences for your actions.

However, who has the right to impose those consequences (and the degree to which they should impose those consequences) is the issue at hand.

In the OP's case, they imposed the consequence for his poor play...by not rezzing him.

IMO, they crossed the line of consequence when they decided to "punish" him for their own personal gain. That, IMO, is vigilante justice, which is the very definition of why "two wrongs do not make a right."

Morally not really the greatest move, BUT, realistically I wouldnt blame ya in the least. I am one that will always try to get the person their drop regardless of if almost everyone else dropped etc. But when it comes to n00bdom like you spoke of, I can see myself getting grumpy and thinking about that.

I hate that the tech beta got pushed back another week. One good thing about GW is that when AoC does release, I'll always have GW to fall back on since it never goes away (unless I do something to get banned).

well he was a burden, agro-ing all insight and unessicarily...
depending on his attitude as in if he was "im leet" "Follow me noobs!" etc. i would have left him there, if i felt he was genuinly trying to help i'd think about it, doesnt seem lily in this stituation tho

and you can't get banned imo.

Think of it as idiot tax, he runs off to god knows where and dies while you fight the boss. He didn't even help with the boss and since he was a solo egomaniac instead of a worthy team player he deserves nothing.

Servers him right.

I would have rezed the idiot

"There is no honor among thieves"

But then again I lost a few weapons on the old faction chest runs where you would run for the chest to see if gold dropped then aggro the group so the rest can get there drop. Well you would die alot and little scavengers would wait the ten minutes.

Seems to me like the OP was posting the thread as a mere way of clearing his conscience. This was his way of a scape goat in feeling better about himself in order to keep the elemental sword.

P.S. Whether or not something is right or wrong, is on a case by case basis.

I was dual farming in Tombs with a friends and when we were done with a run we came back to the outpost where we saw another dual team claiming they could do the first level in 2 minutes...Our personal record was 6 at this point and we were pretty willing to see 2. So we acted like we didn't know what were doing and if they could "teach us."

So we watched them fail miserably and both die. So me and my friend decided to show them how to do it just to show off and rub it into their faces. To make matters worse their necro got an ecto drop before the last group. So of course we waited the until they got so pissed and my friend took the ecto.

Was that wrong, definitely but it was hilarious. And i think humor should come over morals with no account of another's expense

That would be US politics.

Nope. It's just a matter of how much money the murderer has.

Excluding US, which other countries do that? Or, going further, which countries have invaded other sovereign territories since WW2?

Depends. Do they have oil?

Well put, but I agree with the OP anyway. It's the way the loot system works after all, there's a 10 minute timer for some reason. Might as well be for taking loot from griefers.

The player did not contribute to the party. He was, after all, DEAD.

As such, the drop, even if the game assigned it, doesn't belong to him.

He was a traitor for fringing unnecessary danger to the party.
You where a traitor for picking his loot.

You are both going to the 9th hell(the one for the traitors), so it's ok.

LOL

I did something similar to this about a year ago.

I joined a Barrage party in ToPK, They were complete noobs and got killed on the first leve and one guy went AFK as soon as we laoded in. Obviously, as the game mechanics in guild wars usually does, a terrorweb dropped an ecto for the AFK guy just as the party got owned, I was playing Orders at the time so i wasn't near anybody to get killed. Everybody else rage quited, but i thought to myself "a hefty 8k" (this was about the time of the AOE nerf so ectos boomed in price. So i waited it out 10 minutes and grabbed the ecto, just as i picked it up the guy came back and said "mein ecto!1111" so i logged out and took my reward.

I believe this sort of thing is bad, but its happened to me so many times over shards or golds dropped on chest runs, so i give up caring about it and become yet another heartless guild wars player.