Haveing no attacks no extra dmg no nothing but auto attacking at normal speed with a bow or spear on the Ranger completly gimps your team and negates your advantage.
You're just flat wrong. It's a matter of simple math. The pet attack skills do more DPS than ranger/paragon attack skills. Pet skills to proc enraged do more DPS than ranger/paragon attack skills. Pet IAS increases DPS more than player IAS. There's no question at all that 7 pet skills is going to get you the best DPS. The only open question, which SnipiousMax is at least managing to discuss intelligently, is whether the tactical advantage of some of the spear attacks is worth sacrificing some DPS to get.
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it's RA it means nothing.
That's right. RA/TA is just for screwing around. But it's still the only place that beastmasters are viable. With no AoE or effective way to use the best PvE-skills, beastmasters are second-rate in PvE (and in AB, which is basically a PvE NPC killing race). And if you're seriously discussing beastmasters for high-end PvP, you've got worse problems than not understanding how to maximize DPS.
Also, posts which overuse the word "fail" while simultaneously failing at both math and spelling, well, fail.
14 Apr 2008 at 16:30 - 43
@Chthon:
It's not only the spear attacks, but the base auto-attacking as well. Auto-attack with a spear @9 > no auto-attack. You lose a few points of your expertise, but 10 expertise is enough with such build.
Stop thinking that standing around doing nothing has got a higher DPS then throwing a spear.
If you are still convinced of the power of not attacking, try it at the master of damage.
14 Apr 2008 at 16:42 - 44
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Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
@Chthon:
It's not only the spear attacks, but the base auto-attacking as well. Auto-attack with a spear @9 > no auto-attack. You lose a few points of your expertise, but 10 expertise is enough with such build.
Stop thinking that standing around doing nothing has got a higher DPS then throwing a spear.
If you are still convinced of the power of not attacking, try it at the master of damage.
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I made the same mistake but he's not against using a spear to auto-attack, rather he was questioning the use of spear attack skill in addition to a Beast Master build.
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ferocious strike only returns 1 adrenaline
Okay, that's certainly not worth the effort, then.
14 Apr 2008 at 16:55 - 45
Your an idiot.
And yes you do fail, and I will use that word to describe because it's the best word out there to do that.
You go do your simple math of 1 pet attacking, I'll go do more math of 1 Ranger attacking + 1 Pet attacking, you see the advantage there?
I'm going to guess you don't TA, unless you happen to get 3 people in RA who manage to drag you though to 10 wins curseing you the entire time, nor do you do any other form of PvP than RA or AB, which are not real PvP. I also have to guess you don't HB which is a silly place, but dominated by R/P's with of all things Spear Attacks.
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And if you're seriously discussing beastmasters for high-end PvP
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I don't recall saying anything about that at all there Capt' RA.
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worse problems than not understanding how to maximize DPS.
You in no way understand how to. You want a team member, who is non healer/support, to simply stand there with 9 in spear and auto attack with no IAS and feel as though you are "maximizing DPS" You are totally wasting tons of damage.
You say all this stuff built around 1 pet attack is for "pressure" so what, I'll just WoH myself every 5 seconds, big deal cause the -12 Dmg the spear is doing every so often is nothing. Any team that is not "RA" stupid will will anti-melee your pet as see as they see the skill you have and now you have no DPS
If you want pressure you take spear attacks [skill]Barbed Spear[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill] and the aforementioned deep wound. Now the monk has to deal with degen on his entire team, (cause you don't just simply train the monk in a pressure build, thats something you don't learn in RA) AND the face bashing of the pet.
Go do your math, figure in party wide degen and a spear dmg under an IAS with your pet attacks and see where your DPS figures up to.
I don't RA much, busy with TA and GvG, but next time I'm there I hope I face you, easy wins and easy faction are nice sometimes.
14 Apr 2008 at 17:36 - 46
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Originally Posted by Misc
idiot, fail, bad players, RA sux, rolleyes etc etc.
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All involved (myself included), please refrain from attacks. This is a very good discussion, it would be a shame to get this closed, or posts (mine included) deleted over civility issues.
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Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Now the monk has to deal with degen on his entire team
There are a number of pet attacks that tack on poison, bleeding, cripple and daze. I think we can exclude these conditions from the discussion as they can be applied in either situation.
Truth be told, I'm starting to wonder if we're trying to compare two completely different scenarios. A pair of Pack Hunter's is probably going to be ideal in my scenario where some amount of coordination is necessary, and only considering a random team, a single beastmaster from Chthon's point of view is probably going to have a much more sustainable damage output. I think we may be talking about a different attribute spread. I'll play around a bit tonight and see what I come up with.
*aside*
I'll also work up some raw numbers tonight as well. I'm gonna say that we won't use superior runes, but I might throw in a single major. Any other considerations I should include in working out attributes/damage calculations?
14 Apr 2008 at 17:48 - 47
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Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Your an idiot.
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And you're not even worth responding to.
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Truth be told, I'm starting to wonder if we're trying to compare two completely different scenarios. A pair of Pack Hunter's is probably going to be ideal in my scenario where some amount of coordination is necessary, and only considering a random team, a single beastmaster from Chthon's point of view is probably going to have a much more sustainable damage output. I'll play around a bit tonight and see what I come up with.
That's a possibility. Perhaps they are called "pack hunters" for a reason.
14 Apr 2008 at 19:25 - 48
Great come back Chthon, go teach english somewhere cause your bad at this (I said "cause" on purpose)
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There are a number of pet attacks that tack on poison, bleeding, cripple and daze. I think we can exclude these conditions from the discussion as they can be applied in either situation
Those skills were not included in the viable ones listed by Chthon in list of "what to use in the last 3-4 spots" also it was stated that it is hard to coordinate rechargeing pet attacks with Enraged to get the max dmg output.
My point on those was the fact that Chthon said Spear attacks were worthless in the build, I attempted show several examples that are viable.
Not to mention the fact that the Ranger can target swap faster and easier than the Pet making him a much more efficent condition spreader. However I do like poison bite in my R/P builds.
As for damage calculations if you would'nt mind testing spear at 9 as well as spear at 12, both with and without an IAS. I'd be very interested in seeing those numbers. Also I don't know what skills you plan on testing with are you planning a wide range from pure BM to a heavier Spear laiden with pet asssistance? Or what are your ideas?
14 Apr 2008 at 21:44 - 49
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
I made the same mistake but he's not against using a spear to auto-attack, rather he was questioning the use of spear attack skill in addition to a Beast Master build.
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@ Chthon, so what do you do with your Ranger while the pet runs around Biting shit? Just stand there and play Pocket pool?
Yep, pretty much.
Also spear gives you free attack skills.
Admitted, some 5e beast attack skills @13/14 bm > all 5e spear attack skills @9.
14 Apr 2008 at 23:09 - 50
The orange guy has a very good argument for having a spear (or bow for that matter) skill or two in there. This argument holds water *clearly* against intelligent foes such and 'some' in TA or 'higher' forms of PVP. Lower AI such as RA/AB and PVE pretty much you can get away without spreading the damage across 2 sources as there's really no resistance. That doesn't however make a 'pure' beastmaster more fun to play. 3 spare points in Wilderness and apply poison is likely more usefull than quite a few options in the BM line, and adding savage or distracting shot(or the spear variant, or a hammer KD...) into the mix makes this a win win change.
What's the difference regarding 'what're you gonna do?' in a pure BM, either ways it's just buttons on a keyboard. Stupid argument.
Edit: damn typos
15 Apr 2008 at 03:16 - 51
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
*aside*
I'll also work up some raw numbers tonight as well. I'm gonna say that we won't use superior runes, but I might throw in a single major. Any other considerations I should include in working out attributes/damage calculations?
The differences in numbers were coming out so small, I won't bother pasting them here. If there is going to be a difference, it will come out in practice not theory. There is a definite advantage to having 12 as opposed to 9 in spear mastery, but there is very little difference increasing either spear or beast mastery past 12. An auto attacking spear has nearly the exact same DPS as an auto attacking pet at a 12 rank in the respective. It really doesn't matter if you use an IAS on your pet or on your spear chucker, as the DPS comes out to be about the same either way. So the difference comes down to Enraged + pet attack every 5 or so seconds vs the Enraged + Spear 1 + Spear 2 every 10 seconds. The short coming of the 12spear/12BM build is that you are pretty much limited to 9 expertise unless you decided to use a major or minor rune, but could be supplemented by an adrenaline skill (or two) and doesn't have to use a 10 energy skill as often as the Enraged +Brutal combo.
23 Apr 2008 at 00:54 - 52
Snipe you're my ranger hero. I'm glad to see some discussion that doesnt involve BHA and Burning Arrow. I've always had tons of fun using a pet in RA and im glad to know that I'm not wasting my/my teammates time.
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