Guilds Tanking Guilds In AT's

Guilds such as r999999 made solely for the purpose of tanking other guilds, need to be banned.

Its purely a breach of ladder manipulation and it needs to be stopped.
QQ got hit for ladder manipulation, and so should these guys.

If the guilds were bad, I would not care.

But GOOD tanking guilds have a player base of a good amount of players that you can't mess around against. (not to mention a few asian farmers)

Note to mod of Guild section:
Post why you are going to delete it or at least send me a message.

oh. comparing qq ladder manipulation to now? I forgot that rating meant something now.

Its okay norad, I was expecting you to troll this thread anyway.

How are you?

I brought up two valid points. How is that trolling? The ladder rating actually matter back when QQ got punished for it, and thus action was needed to be taken on them. The ladder rating doesnt mean anything anymore, so why does it matter?

I'd just like to clarify once again that QQ never manipulated the ladder. This was a fact that Mike Gills admitted, and is a common misconception.

Okay, continue.

Thank you Tommy, my apologies.
I guess that gives my claim less evidence to compare to...

But non the less, [Best] is a form of ladder manipulation that is strictly prohibited in the rules.

It's not a matter of if rating matters or not.
There is no rule saying, when rating matters - ladder manipulation is prohibited. But when rating doesn't matter, violate as many rules as possible.

Your logic is flawed norad.

My statement stands.

I Lol'd when I saw this. Help me post a message in the Hero Battle section about banning hero battlers who tank too.

I'd like to, once again, thank Izzy for implementing such a feature. After repeatedly being given -25s and nothing being done about tankers, I decided to tank myself thanks to the forfeiting system in the AT's. This way I don't have to hurt my win:loss record.

My .02 cent suggestion:
Lose all QP when you forfeit a tourney. This still doesn't solve people tanking right after mATs, but it is fairly easy to implement.

Bad. A team could legitimately have an err7 2-3 days before the mAT, and losing all their QP is just dumb.

The whole idea of losing -25 is just dumb. Who cares if there's all these extra guilds signed up? If Anet wants to reduce AT length, just make the next round start when all teams are done playing or something.

To expand a bit on what norad said, tanking is just a side effect of our matches. We byob 99% of the time, and as a result we take a ton of losses. As norad stated, the ladder is currently meaningless, and thus manipulating it is equally meaningless. The only thing rating effects in GvG at all is people over 1200 having the ability to win champ points, but I'm pretty sure nobody that is serious about gvg cares about champ points anyway. I don't believe there is even an equivalent in hero battles, though I don't play hb, so correct me if I'm wrong. Afaik, the hb title is ignorant of rank.

Comparing what happens today to what QQ was accused of (note I did not say they were guilty) is comparing apples to oranges. I was in Fishmongers at the time and spoke out against the tanking that was going on, but in retrospect everything that went on was ladder manipulation in one form or another, which just spoke to the flaws of the ladder system (a big reason it was replaced). Guilds back then would go in at certain times to avoid other guilds, or in the hopes of playing against certain guilds. Everything that was done was done strategically in order to farm the most rating. With the current AT system, you know who you’re playing ahead of time and on what map. You also have to have 14 day members – which doesn’t prevent ringers and smurfing, but certainly helps. Good guilds will take rating losses from time to time, and even a big loss. But if you are constantly getting “tanked,” then you obviously aren't as good as you think you are and don’t deserve to be that high on the ladder in the first place.

In conclusion, people need to find something else to whine about. Win your at’s, get your qp’s, and do well in the monthly. Ignore “rating” and “rank.”

You just said what norad said except with more elaboration.

Rules are rules. No matter what opinions are held in regards to rank and rating.

My statement still stands.

It's not necessary that something be implemented, but more of we know of the guilds that purposely are there to AT to tank. It's just a matter of banning those guilds.

Thanks.

You're right. The ladder IS meaningless. You are not rewarded for being rank 1 on the ladder. So what if you get win a tiebreaker of points are even? The points of a guild are hardly ever the same. Since the pairings are supposedly random, and rank apparently does not matter when being given tiebreaker points, it doesn't make a difference whether you're rank 1 or rank 20,000 in GvG. In Hero Battles, it does, though, because you can tank to rank 20,000 and then change your account name. How would you complain if [best] was able to change their guild name too and then you won't even know who they are, and thus you may go in overconfident. There's a taste of what hero battles is like for you.

I really think they need to bring back some kind of reward for being higher ranked, for example by having less random pairings in the single elims of a tourney (best vs. worse type of thing).

This is more for mid-level guilds that know they have zero chance of top 16'ing the monthly. Rank bragging rights (and some Zaishen keys) is about all they can achieve. Your latest monthly AT rank doesn't determine who shows up on ladder/obs/match screen.

As to your first statement, I agree - rules should be enforced. What I'm trying to say is that we're not out to tank people. Because we run so much byob our rank is trash. Does our actual rating/rank accurately reflect the sum of our skill? I think that's a definitive no. However, the 8-10 of us have become disenchanted with regular 8 man gvg, and prefer to enjoy ourselves with byob, and random gimmick builds that epicly fail. Therefore, we lose probably 90% of the time. As such, I don't see that we're breaking any rules. We're not in a top 10 guild using second accounts to tank and smurf to lower our opponents ratings.

As to your second statement, yes, the sheeple of the world look up to the people at the top. If we wanted/cared about being held in high regards due to our rank, we'd probably play 22 hours a day and run normal 8 man builds to get on page 1 of the ladder. However, we could care less about status and what the scene thinks.

Bottom line - we enjoy our play style, and it allows us to have fun in guildwars gvg. If there are people out there intentionally smurfing and tanking, I'm on your side. We're not one of them.

You make very valid points and a good attempt at a defense.

But your abuse of the AT system and constant -25s nullify any claim that you aren't here to tank guilds. Sure maybe its not your sole purpose. But it is a side affect and you are using the AT system to abuse your ladder rating.

Awesome you found a guild that BYOB's and enjoys playing this game. You can't convince me that the result of some good players playing random gimmicks causes your rating to get that low. After a while you just get -0. the only way to tank further is abuse of -25s.

Thanks for your attempt though, it did claify some points that others may not be aware of about you guys.

iirc there are no -25's from ats due to us registering POST monthly AT. that being said, BEFORE the -25 clause was implimented our rating was lower than it currently is due to playing with 3-4 people and henchies and legitimately losing matches(we play a lot of matches ). So reaching that low of rating, legitimatly playing in the automate tournaments, and legitimatly winning should be punished? ohh ok

you would be suprised at how many guilds are extremely low on the ladder, with ratings of SUB 850. We dont normally play anything but stupid shit to occupy our time on the ladder as the ladder means jack crap. As for hitting -0's i think you need a rating difference of around 450 or something, which doesnt happen that often.

TBH im not sure if u are complaining about losing rating in at's, or the -25 when forfeiting at's clause. I understand that the -25 clause is dumb, but it is neither here nor there imo. It is probably not going to be changed, and doesnt exactly affect the situation you have described

frankly i would be more upset my guild lost to a bunch of nubs, than getting a -23

You have conflicting viewpoints and I'm confused by what you're trying to achieve in this thread.

So my question to you is do you really care about "ladder manipulation" (whatever that means in today's Guild Wars) or do you just want to see [Best] banned? I also noticed you forgot to include [OG] in your list of guilds with "a player base of a good amount of players " who tank themselves purposefully in the AT's.

But see, if the guilds weren't good, you would agree that this issue would have never been brought up. It's the fact that some guilds are good that cause reason for concern. And you know that.

lol, OG is rank 380ish? That's not really tanking yet. But if they are forfeiting to get -25s, then yes you would be correct. I was not aware that were doing so.

So your assumption that I'm TRYING to get [Best] banned is fail. Bye.

Best had a rating of less than 800 or so, before this -25 rating loss was implemented. I know that because i played against them before that .

There rating is so low because they play games with 4 henchies. Do you really expect them to win any matches like that? Another question for you. Have you ever played Best?

I really don't see what the problem is. If 4 people are standing in their GH they grab them and screw builds add 4 henchies and join a rated battle.
They aren't tanking on purpose. So could you please explain your point properly, because I really don't get what you mean.

Do I expect them to win? No, and I know they don't either. So what does that mean? Do you know? Or is that just another thing you don't understand? Because its all quite clear to me.

You don't see what the problem is because you just don't seem to be understanding anything in this thread.

Have I ever played [Best]? On an AT situation I have, unlike you. I do believe different people's viewpoints on the situation are confusing you. So you sir, should try and understand the points being made properly.

I'm glad to see you think OG should suffer the same fate as Best then. At least you're (somewhat) consistent.

whats the problem then? as said its a load of people screwing around with hench/heroes so what? they may actually be trying to bugger around with new builds...I've seen teams like eF run hero-way opposed to actually using other players - does that mean they are tanking their rating?

Good Sir you should make some sense first . They are good players, but because they play ALOT of henchway they loose alot. Their Rating reflects that. A couple of -25s from forfeiting ATs isn't going to make a damn difference to their Rating. So what was your point once again?

Using the -25s to tank is the ladder manipulation that was being discussed. Apparently you did not understand this. Miles is denying the straight forward use of -25s to tank Best and thus defending them from violation of any said rules.

Is it clear to you now? Or would you like me to type this in english?

i do not deny doing that before the automated monthly, but like i said we were lower than we currently are BEFORE the -25 from automated tournaments was implimented(if you are so stubborn as to need physical proof i have screen shots ). We have been trying to get on the ladder, and have not been "tanking" (dicking around on ladder 24/7, or signing up for automated and forfeiting first round) since the monthly tournament which was over 2 weeks ago.

Our current rating is 846, and the day of the monthly it was 818 if you are so insistent that we have been "tanking" via automated's im pretty sure we would go down in rating not up >.>

so once again, knowing that the [Best] has been at a lower rating BEFORE the implimentation of -25 automateds, are you complaining that the system is broken or that the guild is somehow cheating the system.

except for the fact that you have yet to respond to everything miles has said thus far? youre not making your points very clear. what is it youre upset about, the at forfeit "tanking" or the playing all the time and losing via hench/heroway "tanking"?

and ladder manipulation how? if you would take the time to respond to the people youre actually addressing in this issue, you would see that they have an answer for all of your concearns. the constant play is blatant, a lot of us prefer to just play the game, regardless of how many available people in the guild at the time.

and as for the at forfeiting, same could be said about any guild that forfeits the daily ats. best draws more attention to itself for obvious reasons but there are a few guilds that i shall keep unnamed that "tank" or play for fun(and lose) or forfeit ats they cant get enough people for that would possibly considered as manipulating the ladder, og definately being one of them but there are many more. we are actually in the process of TRYING to get back on the ladder, as miles has stated before(repeated solely for the fact you seem to ignore the people youre addressing here)

that fact that youve gotten probably a collective -50 odd rating shows the REASON for this sudden need for the "enforcement" of the rules. its sad really that your rating or rank or w/e is that important to you. learn 2 play for fun.

What do you want me to say in response to miles? Yes I agree with you? No I disagree with what you know is going on in [Best]? He is presenting [Best] and I have no incentive to refute it.

As for this whole "YOUR JUST QQING CUZ U GOTS -50 RATING RECENTLY."

No, I'm simply bringing this into the light since no one else has. Assuming things proves nothing. Stop assuming things about me. Any speculation as to why I brought this subject up have no direct impact, but only point a finger at me as if I'm defending some lost honor I used to have before fighting you guys. You are just wrong.

I do play for fun, but I am also very competitive. I can't change who I am, so I doubt you could either.

well considering youre asking for answers and hes giving them i think it would be wise to at least take heed to what he's saying. lol you say "what you know is going on in best" as if we all have some sort of evil plan here. and infact i did NOT say you were "QQ'ing" i said i find it funny that after the second lost to best you decide to speak up about this when it was a well known fact BEFOREHAND that best was a very low ranked guild. And people definately have brought up the point before, just no ones seemed to take it as a serious offence as you seem to be doing. and youve STILL not made your point 100% clear. ill ask you in very simple terms.

What is it you are upset about?


and if you say the breaking of the rules then you clearly havent payed attention to anything anyones been saying. so basically any guild the forfeits the daily ats should be dq'd? i personally dont think the -25 implement was a good idea, FUNNILY ENOUGH being in best, no one thought to use it to our "advantage" considering we dont actually take this game that seriously. there is no "plan" that you seem to be hinting at. if youre complaining about the -25 forfeit clause then i would advice against using best as a scapegoat. unless of course your motive IS because of the damage we did to your guild. this is a matter you should be taking up with a gm or someone who can actually fix the "problem" at hand, rather than bitching at a guild who just likes to play a lot.


and i have no problem with being competitive, its a natural instinct in a competitive game surely, but when it comes to the point of blaming someone else for your own guilds failure then surely the fault lies within yourselves.

qft.

If you just lose to some group which plays for fun, get over it (less crying), get better and possibly win them next time.

I would like to point out that Motoko originally started this thread as "Ban Guilds That Purposely Tank Guilds in AT's" in this section, but I deleted that and then he started this one. So I think he must be backtracking here a little ...

Anyway as far as I know, Best is working to win matches and stay on the ladder now, so perhaps this discussion is moot anyway?

If that is true, then you would be correct.

That is a very true quote. Thank you for adding a statement that has nothing to do with this thread.

I agree with the motoko what [b e s t] did was a total ladder exploit to gain trim + reward points in the monthly. Imagine if they had won ? How Anet lets them get away with this makes me sick , and makes the rest of the mid level guilds who play with honour and dignity look really stupid

Sorry, but it is too hilarious.

This is a pretty dumb topic, guilds have been tanking other guilds ever since the ladder was born. Anet didn't take notice then and they won't now. Best's tanking is pretty low level when you think about some of the bigger and more well known guilds that have tanked in the past. Get over it.

QQ? I do not believe there is anything to get over. I did not bring this up because I think it is a huge deal. Stop hyperbolizing this thread, it is unnecessary.

Then why did you bring this topic up if it's not a huge deal? Honestly, that's a rhetorical question because I don't care. I'm going to post my two cents regardless.

If you guys listened to the rawr cup coverage on guildcafe radio featuring Joe Hostile, Will from {best}, and Izzy, you would have noticed that Izzy played flag runner for {best} in the rawr cup. Would he have done that if he doubted {best}'s character or motivation? As a skill designer, I think there's a warm spot in Izzy's heart for {best} because they're a creative guild that strives for interesting matches instead of boring, play for VoD matches that win gold capes. They think outside the box with build design and have both epic failures and successes. QQ all you want, I don't think you're going to convince Izzy or ANet that {best} is conspiring to manipulate the ladder. Besides, {best} has been below the ladder line for ages - well over six months, possibly longer. Complaining now because they have shiny silver capes while you have poop trim or worse just seems spiteful.

There's no doubt {best} gets immense satisfaction by beating overconfident guilds that take rating and rank seriously as if it actually means something. However, that enjoyment (or deliberate tanking from the sore loser's perspective) is secondary to the occasional successes they achieve using creative, innovative, or simply random, fun to play builds. I think Motoko is delusional if he thinks that guilds underestimated {best} in this monthly or any of the previous monthlies they've participated in because they were rank 6000+. The GvG community is small and close-knit, and I don't think anyone except Motoko is throwing a hissy fit. Attempting to call for a ban on one of the few bastions of creativity left in Guild Wars is beyond absurd. I'd rather reward innovation than make pathetic attempts to intimidate it. I'm not alone in thinking that Motoko only cares about strict enforcement when he's on the wrong end of a -23. There's no shame in taking a -23 from a guild with better players (or a -50 dR lol). I'd get way more upset taking -2 from Goth or some know-it-all tombs scrubs tbh.

Through the grapevine anyways, I've heard Miles wants to get on the ladder to see the Won / Loss numbers, something I'm sure a lot of people are curious about too.

You can bring up a topic for discussion WITHOUT it being a huge deal to the author. Try it sometime.
Unfortunately, I am not "QQ-ing." I am actually bringing this topic up for discussion. Because I am fully aware that a large number of people are in firm believe that they should be banned. They just haven't spoken out on these forums.
Unfortunately, I am not the only one to have brought this subject up. And yet again, you have presented your stupidity by claming that I am throwing a hissy fit. Stop whining about THINKING I am whining. I am not whining and it serves you no purpose even if I was. Stop focusing on that, it has nothing to do with this and is a pathetic attempt to downplay me.
Then you are not alone in being wrong. You are also not alone in the light of assuming things that are not true.

I don't know who you are, nor do I care. You don't know me. I am not delusional. I am not throwing a hissy fit. I am bringing this topic up for discussion.

You ASSume too much. Nice try. Thanks. Bye.

This thread is just degenerating to trolling at this point and nothing constructive is coming out because people keep resorting to personal attacks instead of just sticking on subject.