To all the people saying '+5 is better because an extra attack is better than the 15% extra damage',
You're assuming that you'll always be in the fight untill your energy hits 0, instead of finishing a fight and having time to regen between battles. With any general PvE or PvP build you shouldn't need that extra 1 attack and if you do, then just switch over to the +5e, or just auto attack...With some decent critstrikes and/or zealous daggers, you'll have more than enough energy in no time.
MLiC
15^50 vs. +5 energy
My Lipgloss is Cool
petrorabbit
I'm sure most people who do use +5 energy also use zealous with either 8 or 13 critical strikes.
I always use zealous unless i'm going conjure, with +5 energy. I dont' depend on that extra 5 energy, but it usually is the difference between being able to dash away from combat after I unload a combo on the called target, or be able to use an extra flurry to finish the target.
I'm not saying +5 is better, but 15^50 isn't that much superior if it is at all. As others have said, its good to have both sets handy, and weapon swapping is key to a successful assassin. It depends on the preferences, of the player, and what works for them. Still, nobody can say another player is bad for using 15^50 or +5 energy, when their preference really isn't convincingly superior.
I always use zealous unless i'm going conjure, with +5 energy. I dont' depend on that extra 5 energy, but it usually is the difference between being able to dash away from combat after I unload a combo on the called target, or be able to use an extra flurry to finish the target.
I'm not saying +5 is better, but 15^50 isn't that much superior if it is at all. As others have said, its good to have both sets handy, and weapon swapping is key to a successful assassin. It depends on the preferences, of the player, and what works for them. Still, nobody can say another player is bad for using 15^50 or +5 energy, when their preference really isn't convincingly superior.
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Lipgloss is Cool
To all the people saying '+5 is better because an extra attack is better than the 15% extra damage',
You're assuming that you'll always be in the fight untill your energy hits 0, instead of finishing a fight and having time to regen between battles. With any general PvE or PvP build you shouldn't need that extra 1 attack and if you do, then just switch over to the +5e, or just auto attack...With some decent critstrikes and/or zealous daggers, you'll have more than enough energy in no time.
MLiC So your telling me to auto attack in my 35 energy combo? I don't think so.
You're assuming that you'll always be in the fight untill your energy hits 0, instead of finishing a fight and having time to regen between battles. With any general PvE or PvP build you shouldn't need that extra 1 attack and if you do, then just switch over to the +5e, or just auto attack...With some decent critstrikes and/or zealous daggers, you'll have more than enough energy in no time.
MLiC So your telling me to auto attack in my 35 energy combo? I don't think so.
Coloneh
Its not so much the high-energy combo as the start-off. A PvE assassin should be casting critical defenses, critical agility, a self heal (lets go with way of perfection) and probably critical eye, and they you have to begin your MS/DB chain, usually with GPS. so thats 10+5+5+5+5=30. 30 energy spent before the first strike, and if you dont crit on they first strike with a basic energy pool you cant use DB until after an autoattack or two. and what if you have DP?
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me.
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me.
Shaz
Like Faer said, people just need better skill bar, then they wouldn't need +5 energy at 0 DP.
The way I see it is -
15>50% = more damage, how ever small it may be.
+5 energy = doesn't help you any if you have good skill bar.
The way I see it is -
15>50% = more damage, how ever small it may be.
+5 energy = doesn't help you any if you have good skill bar.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
Its not so much the high-energy combo as the start-off. A PvE assassin should be casting critical defenses, critical agility, a self heal (lets go with way of perfection) and probably critical eye, and they you have to begin your MS/DB chain, usually with GPS. so thats 10+5+5+5+5=30. 30 energy spent before the first strike, and if you dont crit on they first strike with a basic energy pool you cant use DB until after an autoattack or two. and what if you have DP?
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me. Learning how to weapon swap sounds way better to me.
First of all, you're going to be regening some energy when you're doing your setup. Second, if you don't get the critical strike energy, you can always switch while getting the 15% extra damage on your first X hits.
How can people be this bad at assassin? Is it just because I'm too leet? wakkakakakaka epeen+1
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me. Learning how to weapon swap sounds way better to me.
First of all, you're going to be regening some energy when you're doing your setup. Second, if you don't get the critical strike energy, you can always switch while getting the 15% extra damage on your first X hits.
How can people be this bad at assassin? Is it just because I'm too leet? wakkakakakaka epeen+1
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
Its not so much the high-energy combo as the start-off. A PvE assassin should be casting critical defenses, critical agility, a self heal (lets go with way of perfection) and probably critical eye, and they you have to begin your MS/DB chain, usually with GPS. so thats 10+5+5+5+5=30. 30 energy spent before the first strike, and if you dont crit on they first strike with a basic energy pool you cant use DB until after an autoattack or two. and what if you have DP?
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me. You don't need a self heal, and you don't need critical defense. What you do need though, is to not be bad.
You can cast critical eye whenever, it can be kept up indefinitely with high critical strikes (which everyone is running I hope), so use that before a fight. Once your group aggro's, cast critical agility and start your chain. If you start running low on energy, switch to +5 set. If you have dp, do the same.
If you have so much dp you need your +5 set to do anything, get better monks or stop taking aggro.
15^50 on the other hand, adds only adds 1-2.55 damage.
continuing the attack chain sounds way better to me. You don't need a self heal, and you don't need critical defense. What you do need though, is to not be bad.
You can cast critical eye whenever, it can be kept up indefinitely with high critical strikes (which everyone is running I hope), so use that before a fight. Once your group aggro's, cast critical agility and start your chain. If you start running low on energy, switch to +5 set. If you have dp, do the same.
If you have so much dp you need your +5 set to do anything, get better monks or stop taking aggro.
Bobby2
Quote:
You don't need a self heal
Quote:
Quote:
I agree on Critical Eye in pvp, but that's not what we're discussing. Critical Strike... there are just so many better ways to use a dual, and so many other options for emanage. I'm not saying it's a bad skill at all, but looking at effectiveness, it just doesn't turn me on. Crit Agility lasts 17s at 13 crit strikes. That's plenty of time to get a crit, even with time between fights.|
You can cast critical eye whenever
use Critical Strike?
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
You don't need a self heal, and you don't need critical defense.
one person I never thought i would get to say this to: learn to play.
the self heal thing i can see from a PvPer's point of view, but PvE characters that run with any henchie monks should have a slef heal. end of story. critical defenses is only necessary if you dont want to, you know, explode. dont be stupid. I can see the weapon swapping point, but gaining like 8 damage per target thats going to die in the same number of attack skills anyways really isn't worth it.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
one person I never thought i would get to say this to: learn to play.
the self heal thing i can see from a PvPer's point of view, but PvE characters that run with any henchie monks should have a slef heal. end of story. critical defenses is only necessary if you dont want to, you know, explode. dont be stupid. I trust my party's passive defenses enough to know that self-heals and self-defenses are deadweight on my bar.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
one person I never thought i would get to say this to: learn to play.
the self heal thing i can see from a PvPer's point of view, but PvE characters that run with any henchie monks should have a slef heal. end of story. critical defenses is only necessary if you dont want to, you know, explode. dont be stupid. I can see the weapon swapping point, but gaining like 8 damage per target thats going to die in the same number of attack skills anyways really isn't worth it. If you need a self heal and critical defenses, you're bad. I'm not saying people who use them are bad, I'm saying people who need them are. Unless you're h/hing hard mode, you don't need them. They aren't bad, but definitely aren't needed. Learn to position, learn to not take initial aggro, learn to shadow step. I really find it funny that I need to learn how to play when you're the one who apparently can't sin without a self heal and critical defenses. That said, maybe you're the one who needs to learn how to play. Either I'm as leet as divine, or you're just a bad sin.
Bobby2
Quote:
learn to shadow step
Not necessary in PvE.
|
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Not necessary in PvE.
True, but in this case I'd rather take a shadowstep over a self heal and critical defenses. Generally I'll take none of them.
Div
Death's retreat is like a two-in-one self-heal and defense. With critical agility, you're already looking at 90+ armor, which puts you on par with shield warriors against elemental damage (which is the bulk of the damage). If you really don't trust your heroes or can't micro them well, then go ahead and waste 2 skills on a bar, since a gimped assassin is better than a dead one. But doing so will be somewhat equivalent to having healing breeze on a warrior. Not quite that bad, but your freed up skill slots could be used to improve damage output or support.
DreamRunner
Doing TA with no Critical Defense? I wouldn't like it to do it. No, it isn't needed but its I would very much hate to run without it. Line backing and even crip slash would be get the best of you.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamRunner
Doing TA with no Critical Defense? I wouldn't like it to do it. No, it isn't needed but its I would very much hate to run without it. Line backing and even crip slash would be get the best of you.
I heard we weren't talking about PvP, c/d.
Div
Why would you bring a sin outside the SA or scythe sins anyway? And I don't remember either of those having critical defense. Moko probably knows a lot more about TA gimmicks though
RavagerOfDreams
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Why would you bring a sin outside the SA or scythe sins anyway? And I don't remember either of those having critical defense. Moko probably knows a lot more about TA gimmicks though
no your right most sins don't run crit defenses with the scythe build in ta at least although i can see it having its advantagesas per the 15^50 +5 energy 15^50 unless your having energy problems or spamming a chain spiking = 15^50 spamming (i.e moebius/shattering assualt) = +5 energy as you'll be wearing on your energy supply a lot more then just the sudden burst that comes from spiking
Shaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
spamming (i.e moebius/shattering assualt) = +5 energy as you'll be wearing on your energy supply a lot more then just the sudden burst that comes from spiking
You should find skills to help you manage energy instead. For example: critical eye, critical strike, etc. and zealous dagger. Energy management is > high energy pool.
RavagerOfDreams
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaz
You should find skills to help you manage energy instead. For example: critical eye, critical strike, etc. and zealous dagger. Energy management is > high energy pool.
pvp wise critical strike is baed compared to twisting fangs or horns of the ox (knock-locks always good for the lulz)
as for critical eye its nice but the +1/-1 +5e daggers get the job done and open up a space on my bar in the end im out about 1-2 damage and since a moebius/shattering sins goal is pressure not spike i can live with with that mind you im speaking strictly pvp here in pve i always use 15^50 as critical strike > energy
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams
pvp wise critical strike is baed compared to twisting fangs or horns of the ox (knock-locks always good for the lulz)
as for critical eye its nice but the +1/-1 +5e daggers get the job done and open up a space on my bar in the end im out about 1-2 damage and since a moebius/shattering sins goal is pressure not spike i can live with with that mind you im speaking strictly pvp here in pve i always use 15^50 as critical strike > energy The Campfire = PvE forum I do agree that Critical Strike is a nice way to waste your dual, in pve as well... so many better options, and so many other ways to emanage. Critical Eye is usually unnecessary, as you said, but can be nice for higher energy chains. Falling Lotus Strike and zealous daggers is all the emanage you need for Moebius/DB or anything else you might run in pve - add in Brawling Headbutt for the free, easy-to-spam KD.
Bobby2
OK here we go again
- Crit Agility requires constant combat: - Lotz of melee baddies make CritDefenses VERY welcome for this. - Critical Strike: ----- guarantees enchant refresh ----- takes care of energy management ----- nice recharge, so it's easy on Moebius Critical Eye is better as e-management in PvP, where its strengths shine (cannot be removed, long duration without nasty clauses). It is a good skill. But considering the context (PvE Moebius Blossom) I'd take Critical Strike anyday. To the guy suggesting Brawling Headbutt: Club of a 1000 Bears Hi Yaah.
- Tain -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
- Crit Agility requires constant combat: - Lotz of melee baddies make CritDefenses VERY welcome for this. - Critical Strike: ----- guarantees enchant refresh ----- takes care of energy management ----- nice recharge, so it's easy on Moebius Critical Eye is better as e-management in PvP, where its strengths shine (cannot be removed, long duration without nasty clauses). It is a good skill. But considering the context (PvE Moebius Blossom) I'd take Critical Strike anyday. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bobby2
To the guy suggesting Brawling Headbutt: Club of a 1000 Bears Hi Yaah.
- 7 adren charges much faster than a 12s recharge - 0e vs 5e - At max rank, 70 dmg compared to a maximum of +60 when adjacent to 7 enemies
DreamRunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Why would you bring a sin outside the SA or scythe sins anyway? And I don't remember either of those having critical defense. Moko probably knows a lot more about TA gimmicks though
SA sins usually does have critical defense. Its because of Golden fox strike that goes well with critical defense. All SA sin's has something like this. [skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Critical Defense[/skill][skill]assassin's Remedy[/skill] XDeadboltX
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
Sorry, but no.
- 7 adren charges much faster than a 12s recharge I think the point is that moebius will recharge it. And I prefer critical strike to critical eye, then i can get a critical hit when i need it. Im not really a lucky person so try not to rely on chance. Anyway on topic, after reading all of these arguments it seems both mods have little effect. +5e not needed unless using a high damage combo. And 15^50 only adding 2.55 dmg, which isnt that much really. Id probably go with the 15^50 since I never really need the extra 5 energy unless Im running something like Beguiling Haze.
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
|
Quote:
If you need a self heal and critical defenses, you're bad. I'm not saying people who use them are bad, I'm saying people who need them are. Unless you're h/hing hard mode, you don't need them. They aren't bad, but definitely aren't needed. Learn to position, learn to not take initial aggro, learn to shadow step.
well, maybe you dont need self heal and critical defenses when playing with a 2 monk + support backline, but if you were running something like the PvE meta you wont have a 2 monk backline. you would have a N/Rt or two, maybe an Imbagon and a monk, these character put down some serious DPS, but arent as stable as monks, so your characters should have defense and self heal. having each character bring a little defense is way better than wasting an entire party slot.
position dosnt keep you from getting hit by melee, it keeps them off your backline.
not every party has a warrior anymore. if you arent playing one, and your friends arent playing one, you dont have one. the AI can't play warrior.
Shadow steps are a waste of bar-space in PvE. they save you 1 second of running to your enemy, and you usually have to chase them down anyways because of aftercast.
I can respect knowing what you are doing in PvP, but some things just do not translate from PvP to PvE. playing sin is one of them, the class is played entirely differently in PvE and PvP.
position dosnt keep you from getting hit by melee, it keeps them off your backline.
not every party has a warrior anymore. if you arent playing one, and your friends arent playing one, you dont have one. the AI can't play warrior.
Shadow steps are a waste of bar-space in PvE. they save you 1 second of running to your enemy, and you usually have to chase them down anyways because of aftercast.
I can respect knowing what you are doing in PvP, but some things just do not translate from PvP to PvE. playing sin is one of them, the class is played entirely differently in PvE and PvP.
Arkantos
When I'm playing with actual players I'm generally playing with a WoH monk and an imbagon. When I'm playing h/h, I'm using 2 henchie monks. The passive defense and healing from my monk/paragon are enough to keep me alive in hard mode. The healing/protection from the henchies are enough to keep me alive in normal mode.
I guess I should have clarified better. By positioning I meant how you get into the group, and who takes initial aggro. Get your warrior to get initial aggro, the melee will go for him first. When the warrior takes aggro, use critical agility, and run into the backline. You may get attacked by a melee, you may not. Even if you do, you aren't going to get demolished. With a high rank sunspear title, assassins with critical agility almost have the same armor as a warrior with a shield. I really don't know what human party doesn't run a warrior, but if you do get your monk to prot you before going in. It's not hard.
With henchies, ctrl + shift + space a target for them all to run in and get aggro. Then you go to a different target (seeing as the target your h/h are going for will most likely be dead before you get off your attack chain) and start attacking them. Again, if you get attacked, you won't get demolished. Get one of your heroes to pack PS and micro it, or simply fall back like any melee would.
Shadow steps are a waste in PvE, but I'd much rather pack a shadow step (1 skill) then a self heal and critical defenses (2 skills). As I said though, I'd rather not take any of them.
What I've been saying has nothing to do with PvP. I'm talking from my personal experience in PvE. Sin isn't hard to successfully play as long as you're not bad at the game. I'm not omgwtfbbqhaxleet at playing assassin in PvE, but it's not hard to not fail.
I guess I should have clarified better. By positioning I meant how you get into the group, and who takes initial aggro. Get your warrior to get initial aggro, the melee will go for him first. When the warrior takes aggro, use critical agility, and run into the backline. You may get attacked by a melee, you may not. Even if you do, you aren't going to get demolished. With a high rank sunspear title, assassins with critical agility almost have the same armor as a warrior with a shield. I really don't know what human party doesn't run a warrior, but if you do get your monk to prot you before going in. It's not hard.
With henchies, ctrl + shift + space a target for them all to run in and get aggro. Then you go to a different target (seeing as the target your h/h are going for will most likely be dead before you get off your attack chain) and start attacking them. Again, if you get attacked, you won't get demolished. Get one of your heroes to pack PS and micro it, or simply fall back like any melee would.
Shadow steps are a waste in PvE, but I'd much rather pack a shadow step (1 skill) then a self heal and critical defenses (2 skills). As I said though, I'd rather not take any of them.
What I've been saying has nothing to do with PvP. I'm talking from my personal experience in PvE. Sin isn't hard to successfully play as long as you're not bad at the game. I'm not omgwtfbbqhaxleet at playing assassin in PvE, but it's not hard to not fail.
RavagerOfDreams
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
I do agree that Critical Strike is a nice way to waste your dual, in pve as well... so many better options, and so many other ways to emanage. Critical Eye is usually unnecessary, as you said, but can be nice for higher energy chains. Falling Lotus Strike and zealous daggers is all the emanage you need for Moebius/DB or anything else you might run in pve - add in Brawling Headbutt for the free, easy-to-spam KD.
i completely agree with you
twisting fangs/hoto/club of a 1000 bears often finds its way on to my bar instead of critical strike. It really depends on the area as if there isnt much melee then i don't have to worry about my critical defenses getting refreshed and critical agility @ 13 crit + 9 ss holds up just fine with critical eye for me ^_^
so ontopic
pvp - 15^50 for spiking +5e for continuous chains w.o crit strike
pve - 15^50 always
twisting fangs/hoto/club of a 1000 bears often finds its way on to my bar instead of critical strike. It really depends on the area as if there isnt much melee then i don't have to worry about my critical defenses getting refreshed and critical agility @ 13 crit + 9 ss holds up just fine with critical eye for me ^_^
so ontopic
pvp - 15^50 for spiking +5e for continuous chains w.o crit strike
pve - 15^50 always
Div
Wow people are dumb. Arkantos, look luck convincing people.
Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger
At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief
Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger
At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief
Aztec Mijo
i use chimor's daggers and a zealous 15^50 +30
i dont see too much use in either really since most daggers use zealous and the 15^50 doesnt do much more dmg, but i guess 15^50 is a bit more useful in pve.
why do ppl ask this kinda stuff, we have 4 wep slots ya know :d
i dont see too much use in either really since most daggers use zealous and the 15^50 doesnt do much more dmg, but i guess 15^50 is a bit more useful in pve.
why do ppl ask this kinda stuff, we have 4 wep slots ya know :d
Monk In The Box
+5E easy choice
Coloneh
haha, whatever. ive made my point. if you choose not to read it, then whatever.
DreamRunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Wow people are dumb. Arkantos, look luck convincing people.
Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger
At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief
I am assuming thats pointed at me?
How many have actually convinced others that their point of view is correct; the amount of PvE vs PvP threads go around in these forums, I can assume its very low.
But I am guessing also that your sin is getting an enchantment from somewhere else?
Also, I just looked at our GvG build for the SA sin:
A/W
- Golden Fox Strike
- Wild Strike
- Shattering Assault
- Impale
- Soldier's Defense
- Rush
- Assassin's Remedy
- Resurrection Signet
-----------------------
Alternative Configuration - Disrupting Dagger
At least we don't run shitical defenses...that's a relief
I am assuming thats pointed at me? How many have actually convinced others that their point of view is correct; the amount of PvE vs PvP threads go around in these forums, I can assume its very low.
But I am guessing also that your sin is getting an enchantment from somewhere else?
- Tain -
Assassin's Remedy is an enchant. Way to look smart.
DreamRunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by - Tain -
Assassin's Remedy is an enchant. Way to look smart.
Oshi Im a retard
Div
The matter of the fact is, there are 2 discussions here. Dreamrunner is arguing about critical defenses in PvP, which I have shown is clearly stupid. The OP was asking about it in PvE, which Arkantos has shown that it is just as dumb.
And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.
And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Quote: Originally Posted by holymasamune
And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.
I do not have the luxury of having different sets for PvE and PvP... as I'm a fan of Haze in AB, +5e is always kinda useful. Otherwise you're right.
Still I believe +15% base Dagger damage is a steep price to pay for 5e in a class that is as energy-intensive as the Sin - not everyone can spare the slot for CritEye / is running 13CS.
Still I believe +15% base Dagger damage is a steep price to pay for 5e in a class that is as energy-intensive as the Sin - not everyone can spare the slot for CritEye / is running 13CS.
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.
can you teach me to weapon swap in the middle of attack chains plz? sounds useful
RavagerOfDreams
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
And I don't get what's so bad about my usage of 15^50 until I get to 0, then switch to +5 for an extra hit. Are you guys that bad that you can't weaponswap? Oh wait, you probably are.
u can swap in the middle of a chain?
can i have ur hacks?
can i have ur hacks?
Tyla
You can, actually.
Esc (Or whatever Cancel is set to) RIGHT after an attack, then hit the set you want to switch to.
You should know if you've played a Backbreaker 'Sin. ([[email protected]][falling [email protected]][twisting [email protected]][falling lotus [email protected]][blades of [email protected]][no skill][no skill][no skill])
Esc (Or whatever Cancel is set to) RIGHT after an attack, then hit the set you want to switch to.
You should know if you've played a Backbreaker 'Sin. ([[email protected]][falling [email protected]][twisting [email protected]][falling lotus [email protected]][blades of [email protected]][no skill][no skill][no skill])