Question to PvPers, is Flail viable for PvP? Whenever I see a flail warrior, I just run away . They usually cancel stance, but lose flail in the process. However, since it uses adrenaline gain, will the little lost time affect them much? Rushing in and bull striking can give you enough adrenaline to pump up your flail again.
How would it compare to, say Frenzy. The double damage really gets to you.
Just wanted to hear your thoughts.
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 00:11 - 2
Frenzy for Swords and Axes. (Flail COULD be viable if you have a KD in your spike)
Flail is for Hammers, because the enemy is flat on their asses and cannot run. (knockdown!)
jonnieboi05
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Mableton, Georgia
Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]
16 Apr 2008 at 00:13 - 3
beat me to it, powerful. flail = hammers. can't really "kite" when you're kd'ed, right?
~LeNa~
Bowstring Badass
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...
Purple Lingerie - :D
16 Apr 2008 at 00:14 - 4
Well Rush+Frenzy is better suited for PvP because well an IAS that costs energy and not adrenaline helps you spike easier and prove pressure better. Where as Flail is more viable in PvE because warriors are more likely to go in first.
Also the people with kd beat me to it.
Jam Jar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
[Disc]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 00:29 - 5
Ok, what about a [Bull Strike] and [Shock] axe spiker? Once he starts moving, knock him down, attack, shock, then spike.
Flail can be useful in here, or would frenzy be better since you're using energy instead of adrenaline?
Bowstring Badass
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...
Purple Lingerie - :D
16 Apr 2008 at 00:31 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Jar
Ok, what about a [Bull Strike] and [Shock] axe spiker? Once he starts moving, knock him down, attack, shock, then spike.
Flail can be useful in here, or would frenzy be better since you're using energy instead of adrenaline?
Frenzy would be more viable because you are most likely using [eviscerate]. [bulls strike] followed up by [eviscerate] (if possible) can wreck havoc on a 60 al target.
Just remember hammer is always better with flail and will always be sword/axe will be better with frenzy. Unless it is PvE.
Jam Jar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
[Disc]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 00:34 - 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
Frenzy would be more viable because you are most likely using [eviscerate]. [bulls strike] followed up by [eviscerate] (if possible) can wreck havoc on a 60 al target.
Just remember hammer is always better with flail and will always be sword/axe will be better with frenzy. Unless it is PvE.
You mean [Executioner's Strike]?
Well the combo I use is, [Protector's Strike] -> [Bull's Strike] -> [Frenzy] -> [Shock] -> [Eviscerate] -> and [Executioner's Strike]
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
16 Apr 2008 at 00:43 - 8
Flail if you have a snare, frenzy if you don't.
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 00:55 - 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Jar
You mean [Executioner's Strike]?
Well the combo I use is, [Protector's Strike] -> [Bull's Strike] -> [Frenzy] -> [Shock] -> [Eviscerate] -> and [Executioner's Strike]
There goes all of your energy. It's kind of up to preference, but as a bunch of us have said, and Dr. Strangelove summed up so nicely: Flail if you have a Snare (KD), Frenzy if you don't.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 00:56 - 10
Wow, guys really? Sorry, I don't PvP much. I thought that Frenzy is really bad with or without a cancel stance (since you take double damage and you'll just lose your 5 energy for nothing if you use a cancel stance). Is this only for PvE? Or am I just plain wrong?
RhanoctJocosa
Legendary Korean
Join Date: Aug 2006
The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 00:59 - 11
Frenzy is the best skill in the game
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:03 - 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Wow, guys really? Sorry, I don't PvP much. I thought that Frenzy is really bad with or without a cancel stance (since you take double damage and you'll just lose your 5 energy for nothing if you use a cancel stance). Is this only for PvE? Or am I just plain wrong?
Frenzy is = to 50% more damage and 50% more adrenaline for 8 seconds for 5 energy. The downside is completely negligible, and some may argue it is the best Warrior (or all) skill in the game! It's by no means bad.
(Numbers may or may not be wrong, can't be bothered to look it up / calculate it, but... Frenzy owns.)
Bowstring Badass
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...
Purple Lingerie - :D
16 Apr 2008 at 01:04 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Jar
You mean [Executioner's Strike]?
Well the combo I use is, [Protector's Strike] -> [Bull's Strike] -> [Frenzy] -> [Shock] -> [Eviscerate] -> and [Executioner's Strike]
Well generally people start their Eviscerate spike with well Eviscerate or bulls then use evis.
But Bulls Strike>Evis>Exe rapes. With [frenzy] up you dont have to waste adren on flail so you can just go Bulls>Evis>Exe without having to Bulls>Auto Attack>Evis.
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
16 Apr 2008 at 01:05 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Wow, guys really? Sorry, I don't PvP much. I thought that Frenzy is really bad with or without a cancel stance (since you take double damage and you'll just lose your 5 energy for nothing if you use a cancel stance). Is this only for PvE? Or am I just plain wrong?
People don't target warriors first in PvP. If everyone lets you frenzy to your heart's content, you pump out a lot more damage. If they decide you target you, you spent that 5 energy and your cancel stance to force them to pay attention to you. Think of it like a taunt skill that breaks faces.
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:10 - 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
People don't target warriors first in PvP. If everyone lets you frenzy to your heart's content, you pump out a lot more damage. If they decide you target you, you spent that 5 energy and your cancel stance to force them to pay attention to you. Think of it like a taunt skill that breaks faces.
"Frenzy. A taunt skill that breaks faces."
Beautiful.
Age
Hall Hero
Join Date: Jul 2005
California Canada/BC
STG Administrator
Mo/
16 Apr 2008 at 01:10 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Wow, guys really? Sorry, I don't PvP much. I thought that Frenzy is really bad with or without a cancel stance (since you take double damage and you'll just lose your 5 energy for nothing if you use a cancel stance). Is this only for PvE? Or am I just plain wrong?
Yes you can use Frenzy is PvE at lvl 20 with over 500HP closer to 600 anyway it is fine and sprint,rush or enraging charge are good cancel stances.It doesn't use up that much energy if using adrenal skill only
Grasping Earth is best used on hammer build with Frenzy along with protectors defence.You don't use it on an Axe or Sword build Bulls Strike.Bulls Charge use to be used a lot but no so much anymore for your elite and it is stance.
Cathode_Reborn
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2006
16 Apr 2008 at 01:18 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Wow, guys really? Sorry, I don't PvP much. I thought that Frenzy is really bad with or without a cancel stance (since you take double damage and you'll just lose your 5 energy for nothing if you use a cancel stance). Is this only for PvE? Or am I just plain wrong?
PvP discussions in this part of the forum sometimes lead to confusion if the type of pvp isn't specified.
Frenzy is a very good skill as long as you're aware of the things going on around you. You have to be quick to cancel it in a bad situation. Watch some observe matches and you'll see every axe/sword war using Frenzy. One thing to keep in mind though is that they're all gonna be backed up by monks, obviously. What works in high-end pvp doesn't always work in more unorganized pvp types like AB/RA. In those kinds of pvp, Frenzy is still viable but it can be a little more dangerous. You can't guarantee you'll be backed up by monks so it becomes abit more risky. Even worse, Empathy/Spiteful Spirit can screw you bad.
With good use of cancel stances, Frenzy is great....compared to other IAS's at least. Tiger stance has a long recharge and too much downtime. Flail means enemies will kite (assuming axe/sword). Flurry Decreases your damage, which isn't good. Burst of Aggression has a really bad drawback. The only option left really becomes Frenzy. It's one of those skills that becomes better with the player's skill - use it wrong and s*** will hit the fan.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:20 - 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
People don't target warriors first in PvP. If everyone lets you frenzy to your heart's content, you pump out a lot more damage.
Well, why would they let you use Frenzy? A warrior using Frenzy is an a lot more softer target than a spell caster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
If they decide you target you, you spent that 5 energy and your cancel stance to force them to pay attention to you. Think of it like a taunt skill that breaks faces.
Well, can't they just wait till you cancel Frenzy and then stop attacking you?
I have no experience; I'm just using logic. So correct me if I'm wrong please. I just can't seem to understand why Frenzy isn't the worst skill in the game.
jonnieboi05
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Mableton, Georgia
Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]
16 Apr 2008 at 01:24 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Frenzy is a very good skill as long as you're aware of the things going on around you. You have to be quick to cancel it in a bad situation. Watch some observe matches and you'll see every axe/sword war using Frenzy. One thing to keep in mind though is that they're all gonna be backed up by monks, obviously. What works in high-end pvp doesn't always work in more unorganized pvp types like AB/RA. In those kinds of pvp, Frenzy is still viable but it can be a little more dangerous. You can't guarantee you'll be backed up by monks so it becomes abit more risky. Even worse, Empathy/Spiteful Spirit can screw you bad.
With good use of cancel stances, Frenzy is great....compared to other IAS's at least. Tiger stance has a long recharge and too much downtime. Flail means enemies will kite (assuming axe/sword). Flurry Decreases your damage, which isn't good. Burst of Aggression has a really bad drawback. The only option left really becomes Frenzy. It's one of those skills that becomes better with the player's skill - use it wrong and s*** will hit the fan.
absolutely 100% correct. ty for this fine, rather sexxy display of knowledge of the skill [frenzy]
the kurzick eater
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Sep 2007
1323 lancelot dr. greenwood PA
wat
Mo/
16 Apr 2008 at 01:25 - 20
flail is only viable with hammer warriors, as they usually use kds to keep them put, and they usually use 3 cancel stances in the first place.
even if you use bulls strike and shock, thats not enough to make flail viable because:
1) bulls strike only KDs when they are moving
2) shock is used extremely sparingly and is an interrupt as well as as a snare.
Dr Strangelove
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wasting away again in Margaritaville
[HOTR]
16 Apr 2008 at 01:26 - 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Well, why would they let you use Frenzy? A warrior using Frenzy is an a lot more softer target than a spell caster.
Well, can't they just wait till you cancel Frenzy and then stop attacking you?
Not that much softer, since warriors start with 96 AL. It's also not as if they can instantly bring all their damage against you, and instantly know when you use frenzy. Melee characters have to get in range of you, casters have to retarget and cast new spells. You'd have a point if frenzy was permanent, but since you can cancel it at will, it's just not worth targeting warriors unless a) you're a spike team or b) you want to prevent frenzy to give your own monks a break.
jonnieboi05
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Mableton, Georgia
Guild Ancestors Reunited [?????????]
16 Apr 2008 at 01:27 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Well, why would they let you use Frenzy? A warrior using Frenzy is an a lot more softer target than a spell caster.
Well, can't they just wait till you cancel Frenzy and then stop attacking you?
I have no experience; I'm just using logic. So correct me if I'm wrong please. I just can't seem to understand why Frenzy isn't the worst skill in the game.
unless you've gotten yourself truely exp'ed in PvP and get yourself adapted to [frenzy] the honestly you wouldn't understand. i use to think frenzy was bad (back when i first started GW) until i started being more cautious with it. frenzy is 'not' an easy skill to learn to use, and, even the more experienced people can/will mess up with it from time to time.
~LeNa~
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:29 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
PvP discussions in this part of the forum sometimes lead to confusion if the type of pvp isn't specified.
Frenzy is a very good skill as long as you're aware of the things going on around you. You have to be quick to cancel it in a bad situation. Watch some observe matches and you'll see every axe/sword war using Frenzy. One thing to keep in mind though is that they're all gonna be backed up by monks, obviously. What works in high-end pvp doesn't always work in more unorganized pvp types like AB/RA. In those kinds of pvp, Frenzy is still viable but it can be a little more dangerous. You can't guarantee you'll be backed up by monks so it becomes abit more risky. Even worse, Empathy/Spiteful Spirit can screw you bad.
With good use of cancel stances, Frenzy is great....compared to other IAS's at least. Tiger stance has a long recharge and too much downtime. Flail means enemies will kite (assuming axe/sword). Flurry Decreases your damage, which isn't good. Burst of Aggression has a really bad drawback. The only option left really becomes Frenzy. It's one of those skills that becomes better with the player's skill - use it wrong and s*** will hit the fan.
Thanks a lot, though you sure that Flurry is bad? It only decreases your base damage, not bonus damage, so you can use FGJ and spam adrenal attack skills with no decrease in damage. Since most of your damage comes from bonus damage from attack skills anyways, can't base damage decrease be neglected?
Also, you need a cancel stance with Frenzy, so that's two skill slots. What if you just replace those two skills with two adrenal attack skills? With FGJ, wouldn't the two adrenal attack skills do as much damage as Frenzy? Frenzy basically increases your overall damage by 50% right?
Bobby2
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
[MaSS]
W/E
16 Apr 2008 at 01:34 - 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Thanks a lot, though you sure that Flurry is bad? It only decreases your base damage, not bonus damage, so you can use FGJ and spam adrenal attack skills with no decrease in damage. Since most of your damage comes from bonus damage from attack skills anyways, can't base damage decrease be neglected?
This isn't the Sin forum. As a Warrior, your base weapon damage does significantly add up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Also, you need a cancel stance with Frenzy, so that's two skill slots. What if you just replace those two skills with two adrenal attack skills? With FGJ, wouldn't the two adrenal attack skills do as much damage as Frenzy? No. Frenzy basically increases your overall damage by 50% right? Yes, constantly, without having to build adrenaline first, stacking with bonus damage.
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:39 - 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
This isn't the Sin forum. As a Warrior, your base weapon damage does significantly add up.
I guess this table would fit in this post, too:
As you can see in the table, running 14 Weapon Mastery adds at LEAST 32.93 DPS.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 01:42 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerful White Man
I guess this table would fit in this post, too:
As you can see in the table, running 14 Weapon Mastery adds at LEAST 32.93 DPS.
Well, bonus damage from attack skills like body blow and galrath slash x2(FGJ) is a lot more than this isn't it?
And are you sure this table is right? I don't think sword and axe DPS break even at rank 9. Don't they break even between 10 and 11?
Alex the Great
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2007
America.....got a problem with that?
[Lite]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 01:57 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
Frenzy is the best skill in the game
followed closley by Dshot and RoF!!!
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 02:08 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Well, bonus damage from attack skills like body blow and galrath slash x2(FGJ) is a lot more than this isn't it?
And are you sure this table is right? I don't think sword and axe DPS break even at rank 9. Don't they break even between 10 and 11?
Took it from the sticky, not sure how reliable it is - point is, the Warrior weapons deal a base DPS larger than 30, which is pretty damn substantial.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 02:15 - 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerful White Man
Took it from the sticky, not sure how reliable it is - point is, the Warrior weapons deal a base DPS larger than 30, which is pretty damn substantial.
Yeah, but you gotta compare that 30 to the bonus damage DPS (which I'm not sure what it is), just the number itself doesn't tell you anything. Though even with flurry, base damage is still increased by 12.5%, the other 37.5% seems like an ok tradeback compared to having to cancel Frenzy (which also takes up two skill slots). Though Flurry does need a lot of energy to maintain, but a zealous mod should fix that, and it can be maintained indefinitely. I don't know, I'm just throwing some facts out here.
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 02:18 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Yeah, but you gotta compare that 30 to the bonus damage DPS (which I'm not sure what it is), just the number itself doesn't tell you anything. Though even with flurry, base damage is still increased by 12.5%, the other 37.5% seems like an ok tradeback compared to having to cancel Frenzy (which also takes up two skill slots). Though Flurry does need a lot of energy to maintain, but a zealous mod should fix that, and it can be maintained indefinitely. I don't know, I'm just throwing some facts out here.
We should stop offering possibilities, and just say that Frenzy rox.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 02:19 - 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerful White Man
We should stop offering possibilities, and just say that Frenzy rox.
Sorry, what's rox?
Powerful White Man
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 02:24 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Sorry, what's rox?
Learn to enunciate.
Rox = rocks.
ax mastery
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Sep 2007
16 Apr 2008 at 04:16 - 33
ok, i'll expand on everyone else's points.
Frenzy ALLOWS YOU TO START A SPIKE WITH AN ADRENAL SKILL. This is key. Axe and sword spikes consist entirely of adrenal skills, so you would have to waste time mid spike, or preflail, which would give away the spike.
Flail is fine on hammers because CRUSHING BLOW is an energy attack, and thus flail can be actived just before CB, and there is no pause in the spike. If there were no energy attack in a hammer spike, flail would not be viable. Likewise, since CB is energy, the hammer spike would be very energy intensive if frenzy were used.
Also, the kd-kiting thing is a nice bonus for hammers.
Brave warriors spam shock.
--About the questioning frenzy thing, Sir Tidus, it is such a pain in the ass to run all the way from the enemy's backline to your own to try to punish a frenzy spamming warrior, only to have them cancel right when you get there. Point is, it takes a lot less time to cancel frenzy than to run back to punish someone in it.
This point is thrown out the window when there is significant caster or para damage, but cancelling frenzy is still quick and easy.
Since the downside can be largely canceled, and since it increases your dps and adrenaline gain rate by 50%, which is huge, it is amazing.
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 04:22 - 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerful White Man
Learn to enunciate.
Rox = rocks.
Then why not just say rocks? It's only two more letters. Plus I don't think you are supposed to do that on this forum.
Jam Jar
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
[Disc]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 05:12 - 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Tidus
Then why not just say rocks? It's only two more letters. Plus I don't think you are supposed to do that on this forum.
(4U53 I20X1N6 15 1337
Anyways, the reason frenzy is better is because your weapon does a substantial amount of damage as well. Only with the weapon damage will you get 100+ dmgs . Try it out. You'll see that flurry reduces your damage by a lot . While at the same time you know you're always doing more damage with frenzy .
Chrono Re delle Ere
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
The Land of Hyrule
[GoE]
W/
16 Apr 2008 at 09:07 - 36
Once I tried BoA for Shock axe spike and it was quite viable, as you still didn't have adrenaline after the spike, and it had no real cons for me, but frenzy wins them all in pvp
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
16 Apr 2008 at 14:00 - 37
In PvP, Hammers, yes.
For Swords and Axes? No.
Kiluna
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2007
Finland
Mo/
16 Apr 2008 at 15:19 - 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Flail means enemies will kite (assuming axe/sword).
In my RA/TA experience (which is NOT that high, still got proph/factions that i have to complete on few chars so don't have time to pvp much), Flail > Frenzy. Really, 1 or 2 games out of 10 i have problems with kiting. And when i do, it's because of a mistake and i use Flail when someone uses blocking skill, which leads to the fact that i wont get adrenaline for rush. But since flail and rush both are 4 adre skills you need to only be able to hit 1 time after you hit flail to have your cancel stance ready (or 1 time after any adre skill you use).
are 99% of time in my bar, just give the correct <insertweaponspecialization> skills.
On the other hand, if you wont get adrenaline to cancel Flail, would you have actually got it to cancel Frenzy? I mean, if someone is kiting you, be it flail or frenzy they are going to be out of your melee range. Only expection would be enemy healers as they need to stop and cast sometimes, rest can keep running away as much as they want :P
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2007
USA
[Thay]
R/Mo
16 Apr 2008 at 20:57 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa
Frenzy is the best skill in the game
No that would be [skill]distracting shot[/skill]
Sir Tidus
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2008
16 Apr 2008 at 22:35 - 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Jar
(4U53 I20X1N6 15 1337
Anyways, the reason frenzy is better is because your weapon does a substantial amount of damage as well. Only with the weapon damage will you get 100+ dmgs . Try it out. You'll see that flurry reduces your damage by a lot . While at the same time you know you're always doing more damage with frenzy .
Ok, but when the enemy is attacking you, you can keep using Flurry but not Frenzy. In PvE, you fight a lot of mobs that outnumber you, so the chance that you'll be under attack increases.
Whenever I see a flail warrior, I just run away 
. They usually cancel stance, but lose flail in the process. However, since it uses adrenaline gain, will the little lost time affect them much? Rushing in and bull striking can give you enough adrenaline to pump up your flail again.
. While at the same time you know you're always doing more damage with frenzy 
