Maximum energy is not energy management

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Just a beginner's guide (and by beginner, I mean 99% of the GW population).

As the title implies, maximum energy is not the same as emanagement. Once you've burned through all your energy in the midst of battle, you simply can't output more pressure until your energy recovers. On the other hand, if you have adequate energy management, you can keep going despite having a lower maximum energy.

Say two players have the same damage output. After natural regen and any emanagement skills they have, Player A uses an average of 20 energy every 4 seconds, and Player B uses 10 energy every 4 seconds. Before the battle, Player A repeatedly pings his energy as "I have 105 of 105 energy!", thinking that he's good or something. He sustains his damage output for about 20 seconds before burning out (if he even survives that long with his sup estorage and attunement runes). Player B, on the other hand, only has 70 energy. However, his superior emanagement allows him to keep going for almost 50% longer than Player A.

So kids, the lesson here is that emanagement is better than maximum energy, at least in most cases as a caster unless you really need the quick burst of damage to finish something off without sustainability.

Addendum: I see a lot of discussion goes towards the MB ele, but remember, monks sitting in a 15/-1 set and attunement runes with 70 energy are bad. It's just sad when people offer advice such as "use a 15/-1 weapon for this build so you can cast more." You cast more in the long run by having good energy management, not maximum energy.

lietzaum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2006

VILE

N/

i agree while you might have more energy if you don't manage it well there is not reason to have any energy at all, or halfway into each battle they will want a battery or after the battle they say i need regen while if you have energy management you can go and still have enough damage to kill the enemy this does mean you have to pick your skills more carefully then the other builds but in the long run you will find the skills that will work for you

jiggles

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

N/

there is absolutley no reason whatsoever to have 100+ energy

Nice 'guide' btw ^^

Mouse at Large

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggles
there is absolutley no reason whatsoever to have 100+ energy

Nice 'guide' btw ^^ Not entirely true. Try running a Mind Blast bar. With a high initial energy pool, especially if you are running a +15/-1 item, provided you don't spam spells beneath MB's breakpoint, the intital 100+ energy is a good starting point.

In PvP, you may well equipment swap to juggle the extra regen pip v overall pool, but in most PvE, and with the caveat above, 100+ and 3 pips works fine with MB.

Trvth Jvstice

Trvth Jvstice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

HALE

W/

Have the best of both worlds, carry an extra weapon set with +energy -1energy regen. Equip the + energy weapon set, call your energy then switch back to your regular weapons. My Monk has 90+ energy with my energy set equiped.

I know that's not the point of the thread, but it's usually only new eles that I see calling such high energy pools.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse at Large
Not entirely true. Try running a Mind Blast bar. With a high initial energy pool, especially if you are running a +15/-1 item, provided you don't spam spells beneath MB's breakpoint, the intital 100+ energy is a good starting point. Using a 15/-1 item all the time is bad.

Mouse at Large

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Using a 15/-1 item all the time is bad. .......and if you'd quoted all of my post and not just a selected sentence, you would have seen that's what I said.

"most" is not "all"

pace

lemming

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

Mind Blas is energy management.

-___________________-

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse at Large
.......and if you'd quoted all of my post and not just a selected sentence, you would have seen that's what I said.

"most" is not "all"

pace There is never a reason to sit on a -energy regen item, you're just denying yourself energy by doing so. The only time you use those items is briefly to borrow energy. Swap -> cast -> swap back. Just because 100 energy and 3 pips works doesn't mean you should do it; you're losing a HCR or HCT by doing so.

freaky naughty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Mo/N

For an ele (pretty much the only profession sporting such high energy) max energy is pretty much good e-management as said before with mind blast.

bj91x

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Max energy "is" "part" of e-management... They're not different things...

If you have high energy and your e-management comes through using an active skill like Energy Drain, then you'll be able to cast more spells before you have to use your energy regain spells. Sometimes, you won't even need to use your energy regain spells if the fight ends short enough. In addition, by having a higher energy pool, you may get more energy gain from active energy regain spells. If your max energy is too low you may not gain all the energy regain benefits. True for skills that give you a lot of energy in return. An example is Auspicious Incantation combined with a 15+ energy skill. At Inspiration rank 12, you would gain 27 energy. If you are at 40 max energy and use AI at 20 energy (since you'd need 20 base energy to use this combo), you lose out on 7 extra energy. If you're using it on a 25 energy skill, your total possible gain would be 46. Since you'd have to start with 30 energy, you lose out on 36 energy.

The higher energy you have, the less times you have to spend with active energy regain spells and may gain more benefit from active energy regain spells.

It's the same with passive gains. Any spells like Attunes or N's Soul Reaping. If you're N is at 30/40 when two enemies die, you'd lose out on some good energy. But if you have 30/50 when an enemy dies, you'd gain a lot more. Also, though there are builds that will never run out of energy, there are plenty of situations and builds where you will slowly lose energy even with good e-management. Since you'll slowly lose energy, who will fight longer? A player with higher energy pool? Or a player with low energy pool?

The higher energy you have, you may benefit more from passive energy regains and last longer in battle.

In the end, a good energy management is the right balance between good enough energy regain for the build you're running AND high enough energy pool for the build that you're running. Not one or the other.

On a side note, I seriously recommend trying out different skill combinations so that you don't lose out on the 1 extra energy regen by using a 15/-1 "most" of the time. 15 extra energy for trading off 1 energy regen is not a good balance. It's a rip off. I'm sure there are builds that will make good use of that focus, but for the most part, it's a complete rip off.

Splitisoda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

STALKER!

Not in One

N/A

I find energy-management in places like AB, highly overated. Your gonna respawn with max energy, might as well just leeroy in , sides, if you ever see on my warrior, your gonna see a dude with about 70-80 energy.

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x
If you are at 40 max energy and use AI at 20 energy (since you'd need 20 base energy to use this combo), you lose out on 7 extra energy.
Or you use AI at 10 energy, swap to your high energy set, cast the other spell, then swap back.

Quote: In the end, a good energy management is the right balance between good enough energy regain for the build you're running AND high enough energy pool for the build that you're running. Not one or the other. You aren't balancing between e-management and a high energy pool. High energy pools are at the expense of health, attribute points, other runes, and more useful weapons. And really, for what builds is it mandatory to have more max energy beyond what you already have?

Quote:
I'm sure there are builds that will make good use of that focus, but for the most part, it's a complete rip off. Good players will have a 15/-1 set. They just don't run around with it 24/7.

Another useful topic for Divine to make would be "Weapon swapping: you can use more than one weapon!"

bj91x

bj91x

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Quote:
You aren't balancing between e-management and a high energy pool. High energy pools are at the expense of health, attribute points, other runes, and more useful weapons. And really, for what builds is it mandatory to have more max energy beyond what you already have?
When did I say to sacrifice HP/armor insignias, runes, etc. for max energy?

"right balance between good enough energy regain for the build you're running AND high enough energy pool for the build that you're running"

You ARE balancing between good enough energy regain, high enough energy pool, and other insignias, runes, mods, etc. Or at least you should be. I never said to always go full Radiant, Attunemnent etc. It is about balance for the build that you are running. If the build you're using requires a lot of Radiant and doesn't need extra HP or armor, then great. Go with full Radiant by all means. That is the right balance for that build since the extra HP, armor, etc. is a waste. The key point is balance for the build that you're running. It's not as black and white as high HP is always better than high energy or that "max" energy is always better than extra HP, etc.

Quote:
Good players will have a 15/-1 set. They just don't run around with it 24/7. My bad for not making this clear. While making this thread, I deleted the comment referring to players running with 15/-1 "most" of the time. The post is edited to remove confusions.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Running around with a 15/-1 set is bad, a 30/-2 is twice as good. If you're using a 15/-1 and a 30/-2 that means you've lost your efficiency, shield, or enchanting set. Every caster AFAIK can take advantage of each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio
Another useful topic for Divine to make would be "Weapon swapping: you can use more than one weapon!" Step 1: Bring up the inventory
Step 2: Click the button marked "Weapon Sets"
Step 3: Make sure all four options have checkmarks in them

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

Obviously you want a higher energy pool for casting mind blast, but in general that is the only skill you should be casting in a 30/-2 set. There's no point in having the higher total energy while taking an energy regen hit when casting stuff like immolate, rodgorts, or ward on a MB bar.

blaise

blaise

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

Holland

FeS

E/Me

My main char is ele, in a very long time i hade a big issue with losing all my energy in a battle but since time past by i never lose my energy to 0 there are skills that give my + energy and it does damage, so i use a few combos with skills that deal damage and bring my energy up its not all abouth casting mass nuke skills till your energy is 0 rather do less damage in a max longer battle

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Obviously you want a higher energy pool for casting mind blast, but in general that is the only skill you should be casting in a 30/-2 set. And even then you only sometimes need to do that when fighting enemy Elementalists. Any other monster is fine.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj91x
Max energy "is" "part" of e-management... They're not different things... I'll just put it this way.
You're not 'managing' your energy by having a larger energy pool. You're just enlarging it.

Managing energy is either cutting the energy cost of skills (GoLE, Expertise) or just making it go up in time.

Tearz1993

Tearz1993

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

Relentless Aggressors [rA]

R/Mo

All Ele's should just read the thread title...

kobey

kobey

GW Retiree

Join Date: Nov 2005

Sg Unknown [KATE]

W/

It actually also applies to monks, sins, dervish, paragon, rit, necro, mesmer, ranger too.

For some reason, e-management on a warrior just sounds a bit wrong to me.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobey
For some reason, e-management on a warrior just sounds a bit wrong to me. Ah, but you DO need it mainly for PvP!
Things like Bull's Strike, Frenzy, Shock cost energy too.

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Just a beginner's guide (and by beginner, I mean 99% of the GW population). Sadly, 98% of the GW population will never read this and so when I ask a caster what they will use to manage energy, they will still just ping that they have x out of x energy, and I will kick them.

kobey

kobey

GW Retiree

Join Date: Nov 2005

Sg Unknown [KATE]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Ah, but you DO need it mainly for PvP!
Things like Bull's Strike, Frenzy, Shock cost energy too. Oops, didn't thought of that just now. so i need to change my previous sentense:

All classes need to read this topic

Red Sand

Red Sand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

New England

Warriors of Wynd [WoW]

W/

As a warrior, I think everyone should read this topic, if only to understand what the deal with the squishies always calling out their energy. /smile

The real problem in energy management is not how big your pool is, or how fast you fill it, but how fast you empty it. Everybody wants to see the BIG Nuke or Heal, few of us worry about the cost so long as we are still standing when it's over.

Hmmmm. A 35/35 healer that somehow is never are out of energy when I need a heal? I'll take them every day.

Seriously, my thoughts on E-management come from my previous experience a healer: You have a pool of energy, a tap to fill it and a hose to drain it. You want to have the biggest pool you can, but fill it as fast as you can, and under most conditions, you want to drain it only as fast as you can fill it.

My advice is work toward having the biggest energy pool you can, but keep your regen as high as you can. When endurance is key, use spells and skills that do not require a high energy output.

High energy sets (15/-1 X1 or even X2) should be used when you've drained your pool in your normal high regen configuration and if you don't have energy now we are going to wipe. Swap, use up your energy and win.

the ruloes

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2007

Demented Lair Dwellers

Me/Mo

Oh look, it's another one of those "This is the way it is" threads made by Holymasamune.

And, as with all his other threads, he's right.

shru

shru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobey
It actually also applies to monks, sins, dervish, paragon, rit, necro, mesmer, ranger too. This is so very true.
I remember a sin thread on what mods to use on your daggers that made me cry. Why on earth would you sit on a +5 energy set when you could have increased damage with your 15^50 and swap as needed? (the fact that daggers have the lowest damage range doesn't matter, extra damage is extra damage)
This blatant ignorance and inefficiency is widely practiced and needs to be put to a stop.

Face Melter

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2008

TooT

E/

My ele uses dual attunement, pretty hard to run out of energy when you have them both up.

Cyb3r

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

AFO

E/

Yes untill a dervish or necro or a shattering assault assassin or mesmer walks along heck there are enough spells to shatter enchants into smithereens 55 monk vs Shattering assault sin = squishy

flettir

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

Kabal of the Righteous [Seed]

Mo/

I agree, this is a great "guide", and by guide i mean just the title.
High energy for eles is a good starting point, as it lets them unload a lot of damage early on without really worrying about energy management yet. Kill the main target (the monk or w/e) fast and then start actively using GoLE and whatever else to keep your energy up for the rest.
This is even more important for every other class (except maybe necro because they have SR). A derv can burn through 30 energy ridiculously fast, which is why I love my zealous scythe. Same thing goes for an assassin. As for monks...those 15/-1 sets are good for a really tight spot, which happens rarely enough that you can generally recuperate between outbursts. However, in PvE, I find Selfless Spirit to be more useful than if I had a staff that gives +100 energy. 15+ seconds of mindless spamming of RoF, WoH, and Dwayna's Kiss is pretty awesome

FlamingMetroid

FlamingMetroid

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

standing on your last control point, while the rest of your team is to busy killing mine

The Luminaries [Lumi]

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth
Sadly, 98% of the GW population will never read this and so when I ask a caster what they will use to manage energy, they will still just ping that they have x out of x energy, and I will kick them. I wish I could kick people through the internet Q_Q
good guide, I wish more people understood this

Molock

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Qu??bec

Legacy of Angels [Halo]

E/

A message to all elementalists (most of you on this board probably already know): Attunements are GOOD! I hate it when I see an elementalist that isn't using any attunements at all... they of course procede to ping that they have 104 energy.. Ranger with 0 expertise is just as bad come to think of it... eh

I have not found 15/-1 sets necessary for MB builds, they are only useful to regain energy when you lose too much of it (mesmers, rangers).

Lord Cooper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Black Death Knights

E/

i agree energy management is more important than initally high energy pools. i tend to play as a nuker in pve with something like 85 energy. even during long protracted fights with me nuking as fast as my spells recharge i find i very rarely drop below about 50 energy. good energy management is essential for all classes.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Every class needs to read this, whether using energy or not. Why?

Because more so than just energy, mindless spamming in general usually relates to poor management.

We're blessed with IQs greater than H/H, we should use it.

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Ele Johnny with 100 e will be empty after ~10s in every battle.
Good mesmer Bob will be able to cast non-stop even with 30e.
Why?
BECAUSE HE BROUGHT E MANAGEMENT SKILLS WITH HIM!


It's obvious yet... people don't get it.

Bront

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
We're blessed with IQs greater than H/H, we should use it. Some aren't. Even Heroes and Henchies use Energy Management if they have them.

Winterclaw

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobey
For some reason, e-management on a warrior just sounds a bit wrong to me. Yes, e-management on warriors is very [bonettis defense] wrong [warriors endurance]. Some skills are close [flourish] but no cigar [knee cutter]. Some things [counterattack] are best left unmentioned.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Ele Johnny with 100 e will be empty after ~10s in every battle.
Good mesmer Bob will be able to cast non-stop even with 30e. Meanwhile, Necro Frank will be spamming 25e spells as if they were signets, without the need for e-management.

Gods, I love necros.

Zsig

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

99%? wow, and I thought it was common sense.

I mean, honestly, I didn't figure that out when I made my first character (an Ele) over two years ago, but I learned it as soon as I stopped playing her, again, over two years ago. Now I wonder why I stopped playing her....

EinherjarMx

EinherjarMx

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Mexico

La Legion del Dragon [LD]

E/

soul reaping is still a great e-management attribute, until recently i've never played a necro on pve and gosh, 35+ nrg every 15 secs is like having 7 pips of regen

on the other side, i mostly play as an ele and must say that thanks to [air of superiority] i can run out of energy quick with guaranteed mob killing

but when nuking normally i never go lower than 40 nrg and my max is around 85 too