Lightning Orb vs. Lightning Hammer

After the last update of april 17th, the skill [Lightning Orb] Lightning Orb (LO) does no more inflict the condition Cracked Armor (CA), and now it is very similar to [Lightning Hammer] Lightning Hammer (LH), being the energy cost of the latter 10 units greater and the recharge time 1 second smaller than the former. To sum up, now both skills do the same damage; LO is a projectile, costs 15e and recharges in 5s; and LH is direct damage, costs 25e and recharges in 4s.

To be fair, by its efect/cost/recharge time, LO was a very good and strong skill, but I disagree with anet when they cap this skill and do not improve LH, which is not so good taking into account the big amount of energy that it needs. So I want to propose an alternative, here it is:

- LO: projectile damage plus CA, cost 25e, recharge 5s;
- LH: only direct damage, cost 15e, recharge 5s.

In that way, LO will inflict CA as before, but with a greater energy cost and taking into account that it does it as a projectile (which can be dodge), and at the same time LH will adjust more precisely to its effect.

I think that, in this way, LO and LH will be more competitive and versatile. What is your opinion? I hope you and anet agree with this idea. Thanks.

PS: excuse my awful English.

Hammer cannot be dodged and doesn't need line of sight to the target, so in pvp you can snipe people behind walls with it. That's a pretty big plus in pvp area's like fort aspenwood (behind the doors) and AB if you are under a cliff away from direct combat, making peeps go "wtf?!"

What I don't understand is why you want to buff Lightning Orb (in a fashion). The first proposal is terrible, increasing the energy cost by 10 just for Cracked Armor. Moreover, it never had any reason to have Cracked Armor in the first place. Your second proposal defeats the purpose of having Lightning Hammer as a skill; without the projectile nature, there is no reason to run Lightning Hammer.

Thus, I introduce you to two other skills in a similar vein: [Fireball] and [Rodgort's Invocation].

Rodgort's costs a lot more and has a slightly longer recharge for a guaranteed hit, slightly higher base damage and burning over Fireball. Lightning Hammer costs a lot more, slightly less recharge for a guaranteed hit over Lightning Orb.

You could say that it's not a fair comparison because Rodgort's has more pros and tends to be run with Mind Blast as energy management, whereas Air doesn't have the same capability, thus inducing preference to Lightning Orb. Which begs the question, in almost all situations, Lightning Orb is a better skill. Why do you want to buff it? Why do you want to induce preference of a Core skill over a Factions only skill? Why do you want Lightning Hammer to be less competitive compared to Lightning Orb?

So another idea will be:

- LO: only projectile damage, cost 15e, recharge 5s;
- LH: direct damage plus CA, cost 25e, recharge 5s.

I missed the part where you explain WHY they should be changed.

^I quote this because more attention should be paid to it. There's no point randomly buffing skills just because you can.

Yah LO is a projectile which can be aviod very easy, thats why its less energy. LH always hits so it makes perfect sense.

Though I myself never understood why Ligthning orb caused cracked armor.

I think Lightning Hammer could possibly have the cracked armor attribute added to it. The energy cost is high enough to warrant it or another effect such as % chance of knockdown. Increase lightning orb to 15 e if you want that to have cracked armor, quite a few spikes are now using cracked armor as one of their conditions to soften up the enemy and being able to save a skill slot and both perform dmg as well as provide the condition make it too strong.

LO might get cracked armor back after may 1. It's a little too early for this thread.

Both skills imo need serious Redesings.

Lightning Orb needs to becoem a serious AoE Skill, because thats what Lightning Orbs normally do - AoE damage. They hurt everythign, that comes too near to them, because their lightnings shoot out at all directions and react on things, that come near to them, like magnets.
Even older games like Diabolo 2 made a much more realistic working Lightning orb Skill, which hits multiple nearby foes over a certain duration!!!
With this change this skill should become also then an Elite Skill, because a Lightning Orb is 1 of the most powerful Lightning Spells that exist, because experienced Elementalists can increase the size of such a Lightning Orb immensely to a size of their wish, especially when above of their heads is a thunder storm and they can use the help of the nature with natural lightnings to increase the power of the Lightning orb dramastically!!!

The Skills needs to get redesign to this imo:

Lightning Orb [E] > 15E, 2s, 30s
You will create for the next 5 seconds a Lightning Orb, which will hit every second all nearby foes to it with Lightnings which shoout out from the Orb to the foes, which will deal 20-55 damage and will deal 25% Armor Penetration. Every nearby foe can't be hit by the Lightnings within those 5 seconds more than twice. Lightning Orb will cause Cripple for 5-20 seconds to the foes and to foes, that suffer on a Water Hex also additonal Cracked Armor for 5-20 seconds. This Spell will cause Exhaustion.


Lightning Hammer needs to get reduced Energy Cost to 10 imo, slightly reduced damage and should have longer recharge, and it should knock down foes, that suffer on a Water Hex., Also reduced cast tiem to 1s, so it should look in the end so:

Lightning Hammer > 10E, 1s, 10s
You will deal 20-65 Lighting Damage to the targeted Foe and this Spell will have 25% Armor Penetration. If the Foe suffered from a Water Hex, Lightning Hammer will deal 10 additional Damage and will knock down the foe for 2 seconds.

I really see no sense in it, why this Skill should hav a cost of 25E oO, its total nonsense, so powerful is this skill not, as if it would need such a high cost for balance

Every time I read one of your posts Phoenix...I die a little inside....

However, his posts are about 10x as valuable as yours because he actually contributes something to the discussion.

I think LH does need a buff. Direct dmg is not worth the 10 extra energy.

I don't think anything in the air category really needs any more buffs. It already has good versatility towards both high and low al targets, penetration, blind, and very high damage.

So he butchered LOrb and turned LH into a non elite gust. And that he is basing his balance ideas around other games. Yea much more valuable.

To the op: Giving LH cracked armor is a better way to go then switching it with LOrb. Problem though is that LH could just show up in spike builds.

If anything, I would go with: is to lower the energy cost of LH to 15. Drop the max damage down to around 80 at 14 air (or alittle lower with armor pen). Then add cracked armor

I don't butcherec LO, i gave the skill an Effect, that would actually fit alot better to the skill about what Lightnign Orbs are. To say I butchered the skill is just a prove for it, that you have absolutely no clue about Lightning Orbs.
Ok, in terms of damage potential it could be overpowered, but that is nothing, that can't be quick changed ...


God, then is LH similar to Gust!! And? Gust is so or so a terrible Elite-Skill that needs a slight buff and it already kd's 1 second longer than LH should do.
Who uses please Gust, when there are Elites, like Blinding Surge, Invoke Lightning or Ride the Lightning which are in the end more useful, than Gust, especialy 1st one

Its alot more imaginable that LH will knock down a foe, than it will cause cracked armor ... skills is name Lightning HAMMER and not Lightning Blast or so, where an effect of CA would be more imaginable

Also together with Gust and Arc Lightning, LH would be a sweet synergy then together with Water Hexes.

When Water hexes are the way for Air Eles to receive more AoE Skills, thern I say yes to this, Sair eles need that !!! and its balanced, because its a way ,that requires a synergetic condition first ...

Cracked Armor should NOT come from skills that deal big damage. Spiking with LOrb was just too easy, especially when it caused CA.

Lightning Orb is not a weaker version of Lightning Hammer, the way it was before EotN came around.

They are ideal as is.

Lightning orb will have the same relation it had with lightning hammer before the initial buff. I don't see what's the big deal about looking at it now.

i have no idea why you guys are Q.Q ing about this there changing it back after the tournie

whats the propose changing it when its just gunna go right back to the way it was?

That's my point.

I liked Phoenix' idea, but I think is good for GW2, because it's a too big change.

To be honest, I like LOrb and LH as they are, but I prefer them with CA (obvously) and, as LOrb+CA is too strong, maybe is better to increase its cost or even better LH+CA.

Let's see may 1st.

Thx for you invaluable opinion, guys.

Both should have some small amount of AoE - just adjacent maybe. Would make lightning skills much more viable in PvE without hurting PvP too much (no flames, pretty please).

At least fix the fact that LH will cancel if your target dies mid-cast, causing to lose all energy from the cast even if you are attuned.

Rot's Invoc is a staple on my Ele bar. It used to be much more spamable, but still does good damage for very little cost, if you are double attuned.

WTF are you talking about? Lightning Orbs don't "normally" do anything; this is a game we're talking about, and these orbs are supposed to be magical. It can do whatever the f*** the devs decide it's balanced to do. Fireballs also "normally" set fire to everything in the area, but you don't see every fire magic spell triggering Burning do you?

Balancing based on what the particular spell "should" do or on what other games have spells with the same name do = fail. And that is why your posts are lamented by anyone with half a brain, it's just that most people have given up trying to tell you why you fail.

Lighting Hammer could Knock Down if the target is under a Water magic Hex, for example, to give extra 'ding' for the cost.

/notsigned. I agree with above post. An auto hit versus an avoidable hit.

BIG DAMAGE SPELLS SHOULD NOT GET CRACKED ARMOR.
ESPECIALLY ONES THAT ARE UNDODGEABLE.



When a skill is "too strong," you don't increase energy cost to balance it, you weaken it a tad to get it back in line.

I lol'ed. I could ask you the same, because you totally talk about something different, than I do...

I do not talk about balance about this god damn skill, I do talk about its effect and that the effect of this Skill doesn't fit to its Skills Name, because Lightning Orbs DEAL aoE damage, there you can say so much about it, with an other opinion, as you want, its the truth. Other older games simple made better Lightning Orb Skills, which effects fit better to what Lightning Orbs are as one of the most powerful Lightning Spells of all with a kind of Chain Lightning Effect hitting multiple targets over a certain time, which come too near to the Orb.

Your comparement with Fireball absolutely don't works, because what you say is just simple said wrong ...
a Fireball is not = an Inferno, but still even the Fireball Skill in GW does hit multiple targets, which stand adjacent to the targeted foe !!!

At least that effect should have Lightning Orb too, combined with the synergetic condition requirement first that the target must be hexed with some water spell.

The one, who does fail in the moment here is just YOU, for comparing apples with oranges


Exactly that ,what I want LH to do, would be alot more logical, than cracked armor

yes, adjacent range would be good, but not anything higher than that, or else anet will take away our 25% armour peircing.

If I wanted AoE damage I'd look at Fire skills.

small minded anyone ? individual anyone ?

Ever thought about, that Fire is not the only Attribute, that can deal AoE damage, that Earth is not the only Attribute, that could have defensive Skills, that Water could be not the only Attribute with Hexes and that Wind is not the only Attribute, which Skills could be very good versus single targets.

Theroretically all Elements could have skills with similar effects for all kinds of gameplay, be it Damage Dealer, Spiker, or Supporter...

Elementalists are the best Allrounders of all Professions, if Anet would let them be them only, because with their elemental Spells they could do any jobs, even healing, but thats the only thign, what Fire Magic couldn't do, healign goes against the nature of the destructive fire, but all other 3 elements could have also healing skills...


However, about what I talk is the point, that Anet did imo a bad decision with it, to limit the gameplay of the Elementalists on their Attributes.
Because it simple means lesser individuality and variety for players.
It limits players which want to be powerful damage dealers to play only as pyromancers (fire eles) and that is silly. The choice of what kind of ele you play should be imo not influence by the choice of which element you use


I wish for example, it would give also protective Fire Skills, like Fire Shield, Flame Wall or so ...

Wind is not only limited to spike spells, there you exist enough aoE spells similar to Fire Spells, but based on Wind... I personally miss in GW most a Tornado Spell, the ability to create a nice big Hurrican or so to demolish everything with it, what stays in the way of it. Or to create a huge tidal wave to crush with it my foes, that would be a cool water aoe spell or to summon a Blizzard (Snow Storm) which could be similar to Sand Storm!!

Why must have only Lightning Spels 25% AP... somethign that could have some single target spells of all other elements too, its nothing such special of an effect, that it could be used by Lighting spells only.

Fire can ignore Armor too through massive Heat and simple burning it to ashes, Ice can ignore Armor trough rust and Earth can ignore Armor through simple cracking it, because nothign is harder, than diamonds from earth, which can easily pierce through simple metals like iron, bronze or even steel, just a matter of pressure.
Lightnign just ignores armor only, because metal leads electricity.

I hope for GW2, that the system of Elementalists attributes won't be again so small minded and forces players to play specific elements, when they want to be this or that - the choice of the element should play in GW2 absolutely no matter, because all elements should have similar skills for either AoE, Single target spiking, conditions in form of hexes or supporting by helping in defense or healing (at least wind, earth and especially water should have some heal skills, ala "Purifying Rain" or so)

WHAT THE HELL?!
Dude... i mean... come on! No!!


Back to the topic:
In my opinion, Lightining Hammer should cause cracked armor, although it cant be dodged, because 25 energy is too much for a skill that can be used frequently and you cant mantain the energy pool like Rodgorsts with Mind Blast.

And like someone compared Firball to Rodgorts, i belive Lightining Hammer should be the expensive but a bit more powerful version of Lightining Orb. Just like Rodgorts is to Fireball.

People fail to realize why we have different attributes to do different things.
Like, y'know, why it's hammers that have knockdown, not sword or axes.

V
But Bull is Strength not Sword!

The only good things in Air Magic, were B-Surge and Gale.
The reason I don't include B-Flash, is because it requires alot of energy in order to be effective, and that energy was only truly carried out on the Mind Blaster, which is now kind of sub-par.

@BlackSephir -- You can still use Bull's Strike on Swords and Axes too.

LO is projectile, so can be obscured/dodged.
LH is direct dmg spike, can hit through walls, etc.

Fine the way it is. Both are for spiking, just depends if your running a snare in your spike for LO, or just straight up ele spike with LH

Lightning Hammer, imho (which no one cares about) would do better to be reduced to 15 energy like Orb. Although the 25 energy cost isn't a huge problem if Air Attunement is on.

Since there is already Armor Penetration on Orb, cracked armor is a little excessive. Shell Shock as a precursor to Orb is a little more "fair."

Lightning Orb is VERY dodge-able, I don't know what you're talking about. The only time it becomes especially difficult to dodge is when a Glyph of Swiftness is used beforehand.

I would like to see LH get knock down for the extra cost but thats just me.

why, because then I would use it more often.

~the rat~

Should be running LO over LH though because of the energy cost...

25 energy is bad.

(PvP perspective)

@ Phoenix Tears, metal conducts electricity for the 25% armor-ignoring I think is what they were trying to do

they are going to revert back to the old lorb though after the next monthly tournament.

Oh my GOD!!!

Phoenix tears you are teh awesome lol. <3 your posts here for real.

I have an idea for lightning orb too. If it misses, all nearby foes take 52 damage becuz it explodes when it hits the ground.

But to miss it could be a projectile or a delayed hit (like the Meteor) and it hits instantly.

I stick with the knockdown if the enemy is under a water hex. Sounds much more like water magic.

Lightning Orb: this skill no longer applies Cracked Armor. - This is a "temporary tournament update" targeted at the final cash-prize tournament, which will take place at the end of April. The skill changes are temporary and will be in effect for only two weeks. They are all geared toward addressing the most immediate issues with Guild Battles. In order to reduce the possible negative impact on PvE play, ArenaNet will be reverting the changes on May 1st....

Uhm? LO ftw. I guess LH is a bit underpowered but meh even if 25e u run it only in dual attunement bar...

^Orb will have cracked armour back soon enough. And 10 energy isn't much considering it's the difference between always hitting or having your target kite away or dodge behind terrain.