warrior
no doubt
in the long run you will regret it less
Assassin Or Warrior?
RavagerOfDreams
Tyla
Then in that case why don't you remove Crit Defenses for more utility?
Helping your party is better than using selfish defense.
P.S -- 95AL, with Crit Agility up.
Helping your party is better than using selfish defense.
P.S -- 95AL, with Crit Agility up.
Kerwyn Nasilan
Take away all your fancy Stances and enchantments and a sin is no more meele then his caster cousins, the sins lack of armor is one of its greatest weaknesses. My main is a war and I love him to death so I am biased, tbh you guys have inspired my to roll a sin. I'm way big fan of melee 
. Sins and Warriors both have there strong parts warriors are just a bit more versatile. Sin have from what I see 1 elite to stand on, MB, I can think of at least 5 basic elites a warrior can use.
(Wars are better cause every sin is a Naruto clone noob
)
. Sins and Warriors both have there strong parts warriors are just a bit more versatile. Sin have from what I see 1 elite to stand on, MB, I can think of at least 5 basic elites a warrior can use. (Wars are better cause every sin is a Naruto clone noob
)
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Then in that case why don't you remove Crit Defenses for more utility?
Helping your party is better than using selfish defense. P.S -- 95AL, with Crit Agility up. |
i dont see how taking most of the aggro, being able to manage it, survive it, and still deal massive damage, comparable to any mainstream aoe, and still not being a hassle to your backline in terms of heavy healing/protting, could possibly be a bad thing.. all while still having two slots for party utility, such as SY!, BH, Club, or whatever... is bad..
im not saying warriors cant do this, but geeze, sins arent that far off anymore with such a good build as DB/M in terms of team consideration+damage output...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan
Take away all your fancy Stances and enchantments and a sin is no more meele then his caster cousins, the sins lack of armor is one of its greatest weaknesses. My main is a war and I love him to death so I am biased, tbh you guys have inspired my to roll a sin. I'm way big fan of melee
. Sins and Warriors both have there strong parts warriors are just a bit more versatile. Sin have from what I see 1 elite to stand on, MB, I can think of at least 5 basic elites a warrior can use. (Wars are better cause every sin is a Naruto clone noob ) |
we warriors will always be more versatile. more skills, (we've been around longer), more utility (though not as much thanks to the death of tactics), and more base armor, aren't nothing to shake a stick at by no means, but you still need to give the sins some credit when its deserved.
while in pve, its true, sins have only a few good elites to fall on to for their own primary, they can still expand their horizons to pack a punch too. Wounding Crit strikers, Moebius, Shattering Assault, and Shadow Form (for some of the best farming in the game), are easy choices. Assassins Promise has shown extremely useful for the really intense players and so on...
also.. just to note...
you take away us warrior's stances and shields, and we're not that different from our friends either :P.
Jam Jar
Look, the simplest way is to go A/W or W/A. Problem solved.
FlamingMetroid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jam Jar
Look, the simplest way is to go A/W or W/A. Problem solved.
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A/W with axe = meh
A/W with hammer = more meh
W/A with daggers = EPIC FAILS
Magikarp
he was either joking, or referring to the A/W using an IAS, or a warrior shadow stepping or using disrupting dagger...
all of which are very common...
all of which are very common...
Grim Aragorn
heres my 2 cents:
in my nearly 3 year guild wars career i have been a mellee addict, playing casters just bored me. I have 2 warriors an assassin and a dervish, dont get me wrong i love playing my warriors they are fun cause they can just run in there and not really need to worry about dieing. IMO the downside of warriors is that it takes them a little bit to get their skills charged up. With the assassin you can charge in there and unleash your "fury". I have played through all campaigns with my assassin and with warrior, all these people saying how easily assassins die and cant survive anything, well in general PvE with H/H you really shouldnt die much unless your just being stupid, watch your heroes energy and you should be fine and rarely die.
In the end i prefer assassins cause they are just all around more fun to play IMO.
But you really cant decide until u spend time on both of them and learn your likes and dislikes
Hopes this helps, good luck
in my nearly 3 year guild wars career i have been a mellee addict, playing casters just bored me. I have 2 warriors an assassin and a dervish, dont get me wrong i love playing my warriors they are fun cause they can just run in there and not really need to worry about dieing. IMO the downside of warriors is that it takes them a little bit to get their skills charged up. With the assassin you can charge in there and unleash your "fury". I have played through all campaigns with my assassin and with warrior, all these people saying how easily assassins die and cant survive anything, well in general PvE with H/H you really shouldnt die much unless your just being stupid, watch your heroes energy and you should be fine and rarely die.
In the end i prefer assassins cause they are just all around more fun to play IMO.
But you really cant decide until u spend time on both of them and learn your likes and dislikes
Hopes this helps, good luck
ogre_jd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn
I have played through all campaigns with my assassin and with warrior, all these people saying how easily assassins die and cant survive anything
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Tyla
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
uh... because frontlining with 70al could/will cost your team way more in the long run being forced to take care of you if you're H/H???
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Utility > selfish defense.
Heck, I frontline on my Monk, and to say the least, it's funny.
Faer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid
A/W with hammer = more meh
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Grim Aragorn
My real point is this, assassins have had a bad rep ever since factions came out (mostly because of the afflicted and when they blew up they would pwn assassins who didnt have max armor lol) but all in all i reallllly enjoy assassin more than warrior but hey its all about your style of play.
If its one of your first characater i still would say go warrior, its easier, sturdier and still very fun to play.
If its one of your first characater i still would say go warrior, its easier, sturdier and still very fun to play.
furanshisuko
i think both are great but keeping enchants up kinda blows ,d slash all the way better ursans better reputation among melee class
i do play sins ,like them also but i like my war better
i do play sins ,like them also but i like my war better
draugr
Haven't read the entire thread. For general pve, go with 4 pip regen characters over two except paragons, which have extra pool and shout regen. A character with 4 pip regen can do pretty much anything where skills and builds are concerned, a 2 pip character can not.
Sin > Warr
Sin > Warr
Tyla
Draugr, ever heard of "Zealous" weapons or "Adrenaline" skills?
Or just not using bad attack skills (The majority of energy skills for Warriors) on your bar?
Or just not using bad attack skills (The majority of energy skills for Warriors) on your bar?
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
With Critical Agility, it's 95 AL.
Utility > selfish defense. Heck, I frontline on my Monk, and to say the least, it's funny. |
if you're monk had 95AL and 75% chance to block.. i'd consider your funny "my monk frontlines" joke.
its really not even a discussion anymore, because you haven't proved where a sin cant be passive defensive, deal massive aoe/single target, and still pack 2 utility skills.
please explain what 3rd utility skill could be so crucial, even more crucial than the survivability of your frontliner... please.
i dont always run DB/M on my sin, but i still whack people with club, shout SY!, pain inverter, or something to that nature, and never come close to dying, never stress my H/H, and get the job done super fast and clean. what in God's name could i have possibly put as utility there, that could change the game as i know it?
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magikarp
thats doesnt mean its good.
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Thanks very much, Capt. Obvious!
And no, utility isn't crucial, but utility > selfish defense.
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Thanks very much, Capt. Obvious! And no, utility isn't crucial, but utility > selfish defense. |
Tyla
The more utility the better, and you can easily drop some of the skills in the DSlasher.
Some of them really are just for maximizing the spammability of D-Slash, Headbutt and SY.
Some of them really are just for maximizing the spammability of D-Slash, Headbutt and SY.
bog boy
assasin warrior works..
SY+critical agility =win imo
SY+critical agility =win imo
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
The more utility the better, and you can easily drop some of the skills in the DSlasher.
Some of them really are just for maximizing the spammability of D-Slash, Headbutt and SY. |
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Draugr, ever heard of "Zealous" weapons or "Adrenaline" skills?
Or just not using bad attack skills (The majority of energy skills for Warriors) on your bar? |
For example, ever try something like this on a sin with a staff?
[critical agility] [way of the master] [critical eye] [weapon of remedy][vengeful weapon] [splinter weapon] [i am the strongest] [great dwarf weapon]
Spam splinter on yourself, GDW on the physical damage dealers in the party, and use the other wep spells to heal the squishies.
or sub in as wanted...
[critical defenses] [pain inverter] [you move like a dwarf] [ebon battle standard of honor] the sin can spam any spells, warr just can't.
the high crit percentage and IAS = infinite energy (+4 per crit) with a STAFF doing decent dps that can heal and damage simultaneously with the weapon spells and add lots of utility to H/H via GDW. The warrior base just can't do things like this...
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
Also as a primary, critical > strength, no real counterargument possible. And, re adrenaline, the sin builds it just as fast as the warr if not using rage of the ntouka.
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Strength is good for the skills in the attribute.
Enraging Charge is one of them skills.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
["for great justice!"][enraging charge]
Strength is good for the skills in the attribute. Enraging Charge is one of them skills. |
Top this, hehe...
[Critical Agility] [critical defenses] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great Justice] [Dragon slash] [great dwarf weapon] [Save Yourselves]
[enraging charge] is a great skill, but the utility of spamming GDW every five seconds is > [brawling headbutt]
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
[For great justice] ... erm
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Quote:
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[Critical Agility] [critical defenses] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great Justice] [Dragon slash] [great dwarf weapon] [Save Yourselves] [enraging charge] is a great skill, but the utility of spamming GDW every five seconds is > [brawling headbutt] |
Ah yeah, you're also missing out Flail, which is much better.
Providing you're on a Warrior.
A Warrior also has [enduring harmony] aswell for 2/3 upkeep of FGJ.
moriz
[build prof=W/ axe=12+1+1 str=12+1][eviscerate]["for great justice!"][whirlwind attack][cyclone axe][enraging charge]["save yourselves!"][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left.
topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left.
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
["for great justice!"][enraging charge]
Strength is good for the skills in the attribute. Enraging Charge is one of them skills. |
im not saying one or the other is better, its simply preference, but to say the sin cant keep up with a warrior (and i play almost 100% warrior, with my monk in second, sin 3rd), isn't fair. thats my two cents.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
[build prof=W/ axe=12+1+1 str=12+1][eviscerate]["for great justice!"][whirlwind attack][cyclone axe][enraging charge]["save yourselves!"][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left. |
I think the aoe axe build you are looking for is this:
A/W
[Critical Agility] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great justice] [Critical Defenses] [Cyclone Axe] [Triple Chop] [Save Yourselves]
Note the IAS without frenzied or flailing detriment (ooo and the +25 armor!). Note the incredibly high crit % 70ish v 18ish (wow) applied to the aoe attacks . Note the infinite energy that will allow spammage of cyclone and triple chop. Note the infinitely maintained 75% block. Note that the only adrenal skill on the bar is SY, allowing it to have the adrenaline pool all to itself.
Try again...
Magikarp
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
Nice try but no, was asking for the sin version of godmode warr to be topped, not just damage... from most to least important imo... 1. Your IAS is a snare that can certainly be canceled ... every 20 seconds. 2. Cyclone and Whirlwind are conditional, nice when you get the mobs bunched up, but in my PvE experience, from the moment of aggro, the mobs are spread out chasing your squishies. Leading to... 3. Your energy will deplete spamming cyclone on the warrior base pretty quickly. 4. Your crit %, very important on an axe is good but not sinworthy. 5. You won't be able to maintain SY as well without D-Slash unless the mobs conveniently clump up (which their AI tells them not to).
I think the aoe axe build you are looking for is this: A/W [Critical Agility] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great justice] [Critical Defenses] [Cyclone Axe] [Triple Chop] [Save Yourselves] Note the IAS without frenzied or flailing detriment (ooo and the +25 armor!). Note the incredibly high crit % 70ish v 18ish (wow) applied to the aoe attacks . Note the infinite energy that will allow spammage of cyclone and triple chop. Note the infinitely maintained 75% block. Note that the only adrenal skill on the bar is SY, allowing it to have the adrenaline pool all to itself. Try again... |
but all aside, lets stay civil. after all, its mere preference
moriz
you must be terrible at pve then. none of the problems you've listed ever happened to me.
also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice.
also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
That was directed at the adrenaline part.
1.75 seconds out of combat? Ah yeah, you're also missing out Flail, which is much better. Providing you're on a Warrior. A Warrior also has [enduring harmony] aswell for 2/3 upkeep of FGJ. |
Flail > Critical agility? No.
Enduring harmony is great, but I don't really find myself wishing for a 30 sec FGJ that often in a pve fight, esp not enough to give up GDW slot, a 75% block, or the higher crits.
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
The GDW setup is as follows... Apply to first dmg dealer, add sin buffs way of master crit eye, apply GDW to the second dmg dealer, apply short sin buffs and FGJ immediately before aggro. entering battle with H/H with two party members/pets/allies/minions with GDW on is a massive advantage with no explanation necessary. You can stop and reapply or apply GDW to a damage dealer if the fight is longer... with 30-40% kd on two of your group, the fights usually don't last that long though, GDW may mitigate more damage than SY... who knows. What I do know it that the warr base can't enter combat having buffed two others with it. Just not enough nrg.
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Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will mitigate NEARLY as much damage as SY.
Not. Even. RoF.
And 1.75 seconds out of combat is quite stupid if you ask me.
You should be smacking D-Slash as much as possible for the entire duration of FGJ.
Not wasting 10-ish percent of FGJ's duration.
Quote:
| Flail > Critical agility? No. |
Flail is a stance, CA is an enchantment.
As a Warrior, CA's effect is directly integrated into Flail because of the Warrior's naturally high AL.
Not only that, but you're not stripped of your IAS, NEARLY as easily.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
you must be terrible at pve then. none of the problems you've listed ever happened to me.
also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice. |
2. DW - can switch evis for triple chop, but I thought the base of your build is AOE dmg, no? Cyclone axe and triple chop on a build with 70%+ crit > DW in my "terrible" pve experience. BTW a warr, no matter the runes, and zealous mod of the weapon, can never spam triple chop and cyclone as well as a sin, esp after spending 10 nrg on enraging and FGJ...
3. Could take out critical eye for a rez if wanted for groups or pugs, and that would reduce the crit rate down to a "miserable" 60ish% v the warrior's... 18-20%. Fact is, I usually don't run with a rez on myself or heroes in H/H, relying on the hench sigs and hard res that you can't keep them from casting anyway. If I wipe in H/H, would rather just fully wipe to the nearest shrine than res everyone up.
4. The slots that you say I am mimicking a warr with are really things that a sin can do that a warr wishes it could... 75% block, penalty free IAS, high crit rate, spam high nrg skills... BTW, with nighstalker insigs, crit agility, and +8 from a shield, my build has 118 armor against everything, which is really the only diff b/w warr and sin, other than the gimpy warr nrg pool.
What it really boils down to is that I just don't die that much in PvE, which may have something to say about my "terrible" skill level...
moriz
since when did a warrior need 75% block to be effective? as for penalty free IAS, please keep in mind that the target you should be attacking are generaly casters... which are often stationary and tend to stand in clumps.
a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit.
as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong.
triple chop became obsolete ever since whirlwind attack was introduced. with an elite slot open, i might as well take eviscerate. the combined adrenaline gain from the build ensures that it gets charged up quickly.
a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit.
as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong.
triple chop became obsolete ever since whirlwind attack was introduced. with an elite slot open, i might as well take eviscerate. the combined adrenaline gain from the build ensures that it gets charged up quickly.
Magikarp
imo what this really boils down to (for the 50th time) is opinion. i personally would NEVER try to run a warrior weapon on my sin.. thats just me. hell, i've only tried the crit derv scythe crap once or twice myself.
imo.. primarys use their professions skills best, thus, daggers for a sin, axe/sword/ham for warriors. you can use others, but imho, its for gimmicky kinda show stuff.. not really to be effective.
sneak attack, golden fang, db, moeb, crit agil, club or SY! or BH, or w/e ftw.
crit def is optional (i dont really run it, because i like conjures or crit eye), and the rest is situational.
imo.. primarys use their professions skills best, thus, daggers for a sin, axe/sword/ham for warriors. you can use others, but imho, its for gimmicky kinda show stuff.. not really to be effective.
sneak attack, golden fang, db, moeb, crit agil, club or SY! or BH, or w/e ftw.
crit def is optional (i dont really run it, because i like conjures or crit eye), and the rest is situational.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Maybe on a Barrager with a lucky hit.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will mitigate NEARLY as much damage as SY. Not. Even. RoF. And 1.75 seconds out of combat is quite stupid if you ask me. You should be smacking D-Slash as much as possible for the entire duration of FGJ. Not wasting 10-ish percent of FGJ's duration. Explain. Flail is a stance, CA is an enchantment. As a Warrior, CA's effect is directly integrated into Flail because of the Warrior's naturally high AL. Not only that, but you're not stripped of your IAS, NEARLY as easily. |
No idea how much damage GDW mitigates, but do know that a mob on it's ass does no dmg to mitigate. I often put it on party pets as they tend to go off and attack different things. GDW is a complete shutdown. Try taking a party against any KDable boss, and putting GDW on three of the team... hilarious, and not near as much human effort as spamming brawling headbutt. O and then there's the +20 dmg we needn't get into...
Did you not read the part where I said the GDW is precast twice before aggro?
On to flail...sure critical agility can be stripped, just as stances can be. I find flail to be more of a curse than blessing in pve because of the snare. It takes you out of combat much more than the 1.75 seconds you seem to worry about so with GDW...
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
Look, I've actually run GDW spam, so not just making things up. No idea about the numbers on SY, because admittedly, I don't have that skill yet, havent found it necessary to grind the faction for it.
|
Quote:
| No idea how much damage GDW mitigates, but do know that a mob on it's ass does no dmg to mitigate. I often put it on party pets as they tend to go off and attack different things. GDW is a complete shutdown. Try taking a party against any KDable boss, and putting GDW on three of the team... hilarious, and not near as much human effort as spamming brawling headbutt. O and then there's the +20 dmg we needn't get into... |
With BH on a Warrior, you get a 3 second KD (Stonefist insigs go without saying if you've got a KD on your bar as a Warrior.).
And again, 1.75 seconds isn't worth giving up.
Quote:
| Did you not read the part where I said the GDW is precast twice before aggro? |
You run radiants or something?
Quote:
| On to flail...sure critical agility can be stripped, just as stances can be. I find flail to be more of a curse than blessing in pve because of the snare. It takes you out of combat much more than the 1.75 seconds you seem to worry about so with GDW... |
Especially since with BH, they'll be sat down taking the pounding.
And there's 3 skills that remove stances.
There is ALOT more skills that remove enchantments.
Plus Flail can be renewed in roughly 4-6 seconds.
draugr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
since when did a warrior need 75% block to be effective?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
as for penalty free IAS, please keep in mind that the target you should be attacking are generaly casters... which are often stationary and tend to stand in clumps.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong..
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Again, I love playing my warr, gonna do so tonight, but if I were the OP making a hard choice, the sin base is just better. I also believe Str needs a boost, esp in the elite dept, probably also in the armor penetration.
Tyla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draugr
Have to take issue here. 10 nrg spent on [For great justice] and [enraging charge] leaves you ten. You can do two cyclones with that, then you're done for a bit.The reason warrs run cyclone instead of triple is this very energy problem. Sins don't have that problem, and if you are going for aoe, you want triple on your bar, and sins do triple/cyclone infinitely better.
Again, I love playing my warr, gonna do so tonight, but if I were the OP making a hard choice, the sin base is just better. I also believe Str needs a boost, esp in the elite dept, probably also in the armor penetration. |
And if you think Strength needs a buff, I would be forced to call you: Bad, stupid or both of them.
It's not the effect that makes Strength good, it's the skills, and I think Strength is the most balanced thing in Guild Wars altogether.
Super Igor
Assassin 
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