How are paras with ursan?
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
I'm getting confused. In the 20 seconds that FGJ is up your monks have somehow burned all of their energy and you've taken deaths despite the +100 AL of SY. You have also somehow burned all of your energy as well. But if you go into Ursan mode at that point, losing the +100 with monks drained of energy, you have a better chance of winning? 
My single monk (Mhenlo) was already dead by that time since he is a priority target, the +100 would only benefit an energy drained Herta then. If it is only a matter of killing the 2 or 3 leftover injured monsters solo, then wouldn't Ursan stand a better chance?
Melonni was getting some pressure so she was running around rather than casting Dark Fury. I could feel that SY wasn't getting recharge as often as when I started the battle. Then faintheartedness+suffering was cast on me and probably on my other Paragon heroes. Aegis was cast by the monsters and Meteor Showers on my heroes. If my Paragon heroes slow down or stop casting chants/shouts due to death/hexes/kiting/etc, and my own SY slowed down, my AR refreshing is gone. This slows down my adrenaline gain and thus energy gain, even further.
My only monk was Mhenlo, and I suspect he doesn't have much energy to begin with. As party members die, I am not getting much energy return from SY. I'll try the staff to get AR back on and perhaps SY would come back on a more regular flow. It is a pain having fewer team members around to fuel Paragon shouts.
My single monk (Mhenlo) was already dead by that time since he is a priority target, the +100 would only benefit an energy drained Herta then. If it is only a matter of killing the 2 or 3 leftover injured monsters solo, then wouldn't Ursan stand a better chance?Melonni was getting some pressure so she was running around rather than casting Dark Fury. I could feel that SY wasn't getting recharge as often as when I started the battle. Then faintheartedness+suffering was cast on me and probably on my other Paragon heroes. Aegis was cast by the monsters and Meteor Showers on my heroes. If my Paragon heroes slow down or stop casting chants/shouts due to death/hexes/kiting/etc, and my own SY slowed down, my AR refreshing is gone. This slows down my adrenaline gain and thus energy gain, even further.
My only monk was Mhenlo, and I suspect he doesn't have much energy to begin with. As party members die, I am not getting much energy return from SY. I'll try the staff to get AR back on and perhaps SY would come back on a more regular flow. It is a pain having fewer team members around to fuel Paragon shouts.
Khomet Si Netjer
You can judge the value of this advice as you like...
The strength of SY is the huge armor increase, but your party will still be killed by armor ignoring damage. This includes a lot more than you think...
- bonus damage from weapon skills
- lifestealing
- holy damage
- shadow damage
- spirits
- hexes (spiteful spirit, empathy)
- spells (shatter enchantment, energy burn, putrid explosion)
- degen
You might imagine that weapon damage is not a real threat but some of the weapon damage can be pretty severe, especially dervishes and assassins (e.g. Ferothrax, Raptors). I have had them spike members of my party through SY and TNTF.
As has already been pointed out, the Angorodons do lifestealing which cuts right through SY. The other big problem with Invincigon is that SY doesn't affect you, meaning that your party has higher armor than you, meaning that you tend to get targeted and spiked if the enemy can reach you. This is worse in hard mode thanks to inherent attack/movement/casting time buffs on the monsters.
The most basic problem has already been mentioned before but I'll mention it again. Anything that stops the paragon from hitting the enemy kills the Invincigon... this includes Blind, 'miss' hexes, blocking stances, Aegis, Guardian, etc. Mass blinding a la Shards of Orr is difficult to deal with, so is constant blocking and hexes like Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Vocal Minority, Blurred Vision. If you can't hit the enemy you can't gain adrenaline, the shields go down and people die. Racthoh and I did Shards of Orr hard mode together, it went extremely smoothly and very fast (~45min?) but we planned ahead to mitigate these problems.
For those who still believe Imbagon >>> everything, go try Ooze Pit or Rragar's Menagerie in hard mode and see how the Invincigon isn't invincible. :-)
The strength of SY is the huge armor increase, but your party will still be killed by armor ignoring damage. This includes a lot more than you think...
- bonus damage from weapon skills
- lifestealing
- holy damage
- shadow damage
- spirits
- hexes (spiteful spirit, empathy)
- spells (shatter enchantment, energy burn, putrid explosion)
- degen
You might imagine that weapon damage is not a real threat but some of the weapon damage can be pretty severe, especially dervishes and assassins (e.g. Ferothrax, Raptors). I have had them spike members of my party through SY and TNTF.
As has already been pointed out, the Angorodons do lifestealing which cuts right through SY. The other big problem with Invincigon is that SY doesn't affect you, meaning that your party has higher armor than you, meaning that you tend to get targeted and spiked if the enemy can reach you. This is worse in hard mode thanks to inherent attack/movement/casting time buffs on the monsters.
The most basic problem has already been mentioned before but I'll mention it again. Anything that stops the paragon from hitting the enemy kills the Invincigon... this includes Blind, 'miss' hexes, blocking stances, Aegis, Guardian, etc. Mass blinding a la Shards of Orr is difficult to deal with, so is constant blocking and hexes like Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Vocal Minority, Blurred Vision. If you can't hit the enemy you can't gain adrenaline, the shields go down and people die. Racthoh and I did Shards of Orr hard mode together, it went extremely smoothly and very fast (~45min?) but we planned ahead to mitigate these problems.
For those who still believe Imbagon >>> everything, go try Ooze Pit or Rragar's Menagerie in hard mode and see how the Invincigon isn't invincible. :-)
Savio
Of course imbagons/invincigons/whatever you want to call them aren't invincible, but they are the strongest defensive option for a party. Any weaknesses they have can be worked around easily.
Also, holy damage isn't necessarily armor-ignoring.
Also, holy damage isn't necessarily armor-ignoring.
MisterB
Imbagons also carry around [["There's Nothing to Fear!"]. That skill works on any damage, including all the damage sources you listed. That only leaves life steal and degen. I'd much rather play as or with a Paragon running SY/TNTF than Ursan.
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterB
Imbagons also carry around [["There's Nothing to Fear!"]. That skill works on any damage, including all the damage sources you listed. That only leaves life steal and degen. I'd much rather play as or with a Paragon running SY/TNTF than Ursan.
TNTF with 15e with 20s recharge is not exactly spammable and it lasts for only 10s.
Imbagon is really not as invincible as alot here seem to think. As a physical class, you have the usual shutdowns like (blind, weakness, block, adrenaline denial hexes, attack speed slow down hexes, miss hexes, anti-adrenaline hexes, etc.). The energy gain from leadership is also dependent on how many affected allies are still alive around your shout range so you can actually have lower energy at the time when you need it most.
Switching to a staff for energy to use TNTF maybe a workable temporary solution, but if most of my H/H are already dead, it is going to be painful for a prolonged battle without much energy boost from leadership.
SY/TNTF Imbagon is good on a protective team build but Ursan is superior when it down to solo damage and solo protection. I dont like Ursan teams and I have never joined one, I usually H/H. Ursan bias aside, I like the idea of being able to switch modes based on battle situations.
Imbagon is really not as invincible as alot here seem to think. As a physical class, you have the usual shutdowns like (blind, weakness, block, adrenaline denial hexes, attack speed slow down hexes, miss hexes, anti-adrenaline hexes, etc.). The energy gain from leadership is also dependent on how many affected allies are still alive around your shout range so you can actually have lower energy at the time when you need it most.
Switching to a staff for energy to use TNTF maybe a workable temporary solution, but if most of my H/H are already dead, it is going to be painful for a prolonged battle without much energy boost from leadership.
SY/TNTF Imbagon is good on a protective team build but Ursan is superior when it down to solo damage and solo protection. I dont like Ursan teams and I have never joined one, I usually H/H. Ursan bias aside, I like the idea of being able to switch modes based on battle situations.
Savio
If most of your H/H are dead, you're going to lose anyway because the AI is easily beating you. If this is happening consistently, it's an issue with the rest of your team's setup and not the imbagon. Ursan might squeeze you by a few situations where most of your team's wiped and most of the enemies are wiped, but why are you planning for a situation which shouldn't be happening with regularity?
Yes, imbagons have weaknesses; that's what the rest of your party is for. Physicals do terrible if they don't have support. If the monks and the midliners can't keep the imbagon clean, their builds need to be reworked so that they can.
Yes, imbagons have weaknesses; that's what the rest of your party is for. Physicals do terrible if they don't have support. If the monks and the midliners can't keep the imbagon clean, their builds need to be reworked so that they can.
Kale Ironfist
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You might imagine that weapon damage is not a real threat but some of the weapon damage can be pretty severe, especially dervishes and assassins (e.g. Ferothrax, Raptors). I have had them spike members of my party through SY and TNTF.
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Quote: The most basic problem has already been mentioned before but I'll mention it again. Anything that stops the paragon from hitting the enemy kills the Invincigon... this includes Blind, 'miss' hexes, blocking stances, Aegis, Guardian, etc. Mass blinding a la Shards of Orr is difficult to deal with, so is constant blocking and hexes like Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Vocal Minority, Blurred Vision. If you can't hit the enemy you can't gain adrenaline, the shields go down and people die. Racthoh and I did Shards of Orr hard mode together, it went extremely smoothly and very fast (~45min?) but we planned ahead to mitigate these problems. Quote: Imbagon is really not as invincible as alot here seem to think. As a physical class, you have the usual shutdowns like (blind, weakness, block, adrenaline denial hexes, attack speed slow down hexes, miss hexes, anti-adrenaline hexes, etc.). The energy gain from leadership is also dependent on how many affected allies are still alive around your shout range so you can actually have lower energy at the time when you need it most. That's like saying caster spike is defeated by Daze. It's stupid because you're assuming that there is no condition removal or hex removal on the ENTIRE 8 player party. What kind of party does not bring condition and hex removal? If there is an overload, you either match removals to meet the overload (not exactly the best strategy, since you lose out on a lot of slots) or you make an alternate means to beat them.
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For someone who supports the use of heroes in H/H teams, I have to disagree with that statement.|
Switching to a staff for energy to use TNTF maybe a workable temporary solution, but if most of my H/H are already dead, it is going to be painful for a prolonged battle without much energy boost from leadership.
If you know it's a losing battle, why do you continue fighting? It's smarter to resurrect as early as possible, then retreat, regroup and figure what you did wrong for another crack at it. Quote:
You honestly dont need SY spamming to keep your party alive either, otherwise how do you think my non-paragon characters get by in HM without SY/TNTF?
 They are just nice-to-haves and my mesmers do just fine with similar H/H setup, in the same areas, without SY/TNTF at all. In any case, SY and TNTF are defensive skills so they wont help you to kill any faster.SY/TNTF is nice when they work, but they dont work in ALL places in the game. Anti-adrenaline gain hexes, or physical shutdown would affect you unless you re-configure your team to workaround them, which is a hassle at times. Ursan is just a convenient way of overcoming block/blind/anti-adrenaline hexes/etc if you are too lazy to reconfigure your party for those areas. In other words, I dont really need the extra defense from SY/TNTF, in most areas just to keep the team alive, but a more offensive force that overcomes physical shutdown at times without having to re-configure my team, can be useful. Be an imbagon when I need to and be an Ursan when I need to. Quote: |
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If you need SY/TNTF just to keep your party alive then there is something already wrong with your team setup.
Quote: That's like saying caster spike is defeated by Daze. It's stupid because you're assuming that there is no condition removal or hex removal on the ENTIRE 8 player party. What kind of party does not bring condition and hex removal? If there is an overload, you either match removals to meet the overload (not exactly the best strategy, since you lose out on a lot of slots) or you make an alternate means to beat them. Don't you know that many builds nowadays dont even bring a hex removal in PvE? Look at sabway. Even if you bring a hex removal, there are places in HM with Suffering that your hex removing heroes probably cant remove the right hex at the right time fast enough anyway.
I can still bring one or two hex removal within the skill slots of my 3 heroes, but I wouldn't rely on them.
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It's probably the strongest of the PvE skills, so people will take it to min/max their party setup because they want efficiency in as many aspects as controllable.|
If you know it's a losing battle, why do you continue fighting? It's smarter to resurrect as early as possible, then retreat, regroup and figure what you did wrong for another crack at it.
Maybe because I prefer to have a res. Quote:
Because the standard party has ~2 Monks. Those Monks provide their own protection, and the combined defensive web keeps you alive long enough to fight a war of attrition if it comes down to it.
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Quote: If I want teamwork, I would have tried harder to farm my norn rank and join an Ursanway PUG (depending on the area, most PUGs run Ursanway nowadays). But I dont like doing that, so I H/H most of the time. How is there no teamwork with H/H? You exist as part of that team, and they will support you. If need be, you can override their AI.
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Or, if there are not many foes left, kill them all then resurrect.|
Why do you assume that my party would die without SY/TNTF in areas when I have got through fine without SY/TNTF on non-paragon characters? Are you saying that you can only clear that area with an Imbagon and all other builds are useless?
This argument started with: 1. Team with imbagon is dying 2. Would Ursan have been better in its (imbagon) place? 3. Ursan has less ways to be shutdown, so obviously it is superior The pro-imbagon team interjected with: 4. No, it is not superior, because if you had taken an Ursan in that situation, the party would have died anyway, only faster. Quote:
Perhaps but they are strong in terms of defense, not offense. Sometimes the best defense IS a strong offense. Killing your enemies fast also saves you alot of healing, afterall the hench monk energy is limited.
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This argument started with: 1. Team with imbagon is dying 2. Would Ursan have been better in its (imbagon) place? 3. Ursan has less ways to be shutdown, so obviously it is superior The pro-imbagon team interjected with: 4. No, it is not superior, because if you had taken an Ursan in that situation, the party would have died anyway, only faster. Then you have to find out why the Paragon team is dying and I went through this with Rac before while using his default team build. First of all, there were 2 Flameshielders that cast Aegis and the default build doesn't have an enchant removal or Rigor Mortis. Second, Faintheartedness and Suffering overloaded the hex removal and impacted the Paragons's adrenaline gain. Third, AoE like Meteor Shower and Rogort's Invocation is effective against H/H that tend to clump together. Rac gave good counters for these but it involves bringing skills that I dont normally bring. I cleared it easily later on, by bringing necro heroes but as you can see, the physical shutdowns are there and I have to incorporate more defensive skills into the team build to overcomes them. In other more physical friendly areas, the default build works flawlessly but you have to ask if you really need SY/TNTF for those areas, to stay alive, then? Quote:
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