New notebook RAM issue

I just purchased this laptop from Gateway:

http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668034.php

Gateway only sells the 32-bit version of Vista however, which means the computer isn't going to be taking advantage of the full 4 GB of RAM. The sales associate tells me the computer is going to read somewhere between 3.25 GB and 3.75 GB of RAM.

With that in mind, do you folks think this is still a good deal? I'd be "wasting" a fair bit of memory. Not that many applications can take advantage of 4GB today, but I need this thing to last me the next 3 years whilst the Air Force has me in Japan...

vista 32 bit is a waste. the entire reason to move to vista is for 64 bit os.

up to you tho alot of people use the 32 bit.

It's not a move. XP is sold on very few laptop models and will be discontinued in a couple months.

Also, Vista-64 on laptops is sketchy. My other laptop (a HP) has it and there's no adequate sound driver for it. The best thing HP tech support provides is a gimped up version. It works fine unless I need to change the volume while there's sound going on, then it lags the whole system for 20 secs whenever there's an adjustment.

So it's hit and miss.....

RAM (DDR2) is really cheap these days. Most laptops require you to use 2 identical sticks, so your only real options would be to have only 2 gig of RAM, or 3.x gigs of RAM. You'd "waste" less than a gig of RAM - that's about $12 - maybe if you save up for a while, you could afford it.

Or, to put it another way, the same laptop with only 2gigs of RAM would cost, at best, $50 less,

I just got the following refurb system for about $2500:

Dell XPS M1730
Intel X9000 Core2Extreme 2.8ghz (OC's to 3.4 out of the box)
NVidia 8800M-GTX SLI video + Aegia Phys-X processor
1920x1200 display
4gigs RAM
200gig 7200rpm freefall sensing HD
Illuminated keboard w/ Logitech mini-LCD
BT/802.11a/g wireless
DVD RW / BluRay ROM
wireless remote
Windows Vista Preimum

It was encountering the same RAM count problem you mentioned above until I stalled Windows Vista SP1. Now it reads 4gigs system RAM available.

You can find SP1 here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en

Get XP 64 bit
And vista eats you're ram, so you probably will get about 2GIG, well you will just get the same performance as 2GIG

I don't recommend XP 64-bit, driver support on that is minimum, and Vista does use a lot of RAM, but anyone that knows Windows, can slow it down to 25% with the right tweaks (M$' fault, you'd expect something you'd pay for to run right out the box right? but blame the Corporation, not the OS).

There's also a lot more driver support for Vista 64 than XP 64. (I can't even get GeForce7950GX2 to run properly on XP 64, and that's a 4 year old video card)

Vista 32 is fine if you don't want the hassle. But there are more 64 bit applications being developed and since 32 emulates fine on the 64, theres no reason not to go 64.

I use Vista 64 @ 2GB RAM. Theres no reason to go more. Faster RAM > More RAM.

This thread is not about whether or not 64 has advantages over 32.

Still waiting for an on-topic, helpful post.

Still a good deal. That RAM isn't being wasted as such. It'll still be used by your system as and when it needs it.

I'm going to update to 4gb RAM and I only have 32bit Vista.

Helpful post? I would have thought the SP1 post I replied with would have corrected the memory issue that started this whole thread. I have Vista SP1 loaded now, and it sees all 4gigs of RAM.

I also posted my system specs because, it a nutshell, you can get twice the hardware at about the same price going the same direction I did, but to each his own...

That is very cheap if you convert the $ to £. I wonder if they ship to the UK...an 8800 machine for £1k. That system here would go for £1700+

Thanks for the input, Malice.

My problem is that I have an intermediate knowledge of hardware and operating systems. I know enough to do a few things, but also my moderate knowledge curses me with an awareness of all the things I have an incomplete grasp of

I was reading something in Maximum PC magazine a while back about how the "missing" memory is only partially wasted and is still accessed in some ways. Wonder what that means...

Your post is not helpful for a few reasons:

1) You didn't specify whether you had 32 or 64.
2) Vista 32 sometimes sees the full 4 Gigs but it doesn't fully utilize that. The basic formula is 4 Gigs, minus the video ram (and a couple other driver things). With a full 1 GB of video memory in your machine, your OS is actually accessing a lot less than 3 GB of system memory. So you may be getting misled.
3) Vista SP1 didn't have anything about allowing the 32-bit OS to access more memory.
4) Dell sells that model refurbed except with a substantially worse SLI'd 8700 for the price you mentioned. Not to mention that blu-ray ROM. How are you somehow getting that huge upgrade for free?
5) Dell isn't selling the refurbished model you have with SLI'd 8800's right now so how is this supposed to be useful to me?
6) I don't believe you got what you say you did for that price. Send me the link to your receipt or something perhaps?

Here's a helpful post:

If and when you do decide to buy this laptop, take the RAM out and throw it away. Then buy some name brand RAM with faster timings and better bandwidth, then you'll realize that 512MB of RAM you're missing out on, isn't a big deal.

My previous post wasn't under the intention of debating 32 and 64 bit, but to open a future possibility of upgrading to 64?

So I'll repeat again. Faster RAM > More RAM. 512 MB is nothing when compared to the other 3.5 GB.

No that's still not helpful at all. Everyone knows that fast RAM > slow RAM. I'm well aware of this potential upgrade path. Why are you telling me this>

And where are you getting Faster RAM > more RAM? As far as I can tell, it depends on what the situation is. Laying down sweeping generalizations like this with no source ends up being completely meaningless.

Anyway, I swapped out the RAM in my desktop for some OCZ gaming sticks with 2-3-2-5 timing and got no noticeable improvement in any games I play. My FPS in GW increased by 2 FPS. Not worth the money I spent. Maybe it would be more noticeable in other apps though.

If you don't need to be told this? Why are you bickering the 512 MB loss from using a 32 bit operating system?

The restriction for <4GBs on a 32 bit OS will always stand, because there is no 32-bit application that is capable of using more than 4GBs. That's all.

EDIT: The 'no noticeable improvement in games you play' bit is probably due to a bottleneck somewhere else. 2-3-2-5 sounds like DDR RAM (or DDR2, but you'd have to drop a real fortune on it, some Micron D9's go that low, you'd have to 2.35 and active cool it tho). You can't expect RAM to make that leap if your other components are lacking.

How am I "bickering" about RAM loss? I'm asking for people's input.

(on-topic input that is)

Sure I did... just not directly. I did mention that my system did encounter the sub-4gig memory, which is only present in 32-bit Windows OS versions. Furthermore, the SP1 URL I posted does say it's for 32-bit.

Perhaps, but all the Dell and MS diagnostics on board state 4gigs RAM are present.

Because the model I purchased was marked "Scratch/Dent," which is further discounted 30%. Guess what? I'm staring at the laptop now, and the unit looks new aside from small scuff mark on one of the blue transparent cover logos -- it's so small that I barely notice it. Furthermore, that scuffed panel is getting replaced under warranty (got the complete care extended accident warranty package). I actually have the replacement panel now, but Dell needs to ship a 2nd unit since its colors are different (getting switched from blue to gray). I'll be seeing this probably Monday.

Dell Outlet sells M1730 SLI's frequently, but many people run cart-bots that basically grab and hold inventory until the Dell Outlet's 15-minute cart-expiration policy returns it. Then the bots grab the same units all over again. I watched the same high-end X9000 CPU 8800GTX SLI rig leave and re-enter inventory a whole week. You basically have to sit on the Dell Outlet page until you see the rig you want, then grab it before the cart bots do (you have only a few minutes to do so before they snag it again). Once you do, place a phone order, give the phone agent the system-ID, then either release it to him or just complete your order only. Yes this is tedious, but it's the only way to get the system you want on the Dell Outlet until they can solve the cart-bot issue. I saved $2500 going the above route... is that worth it to you?

All the Dell Outlet invoice URL's require my personal login/password, so here's a picture of my actual invoice along with the minor scratch mark (almost invisible).

The total system price was $3033 with tax and 3-year complete care extended warranty. But here's a picture of the unit price... check out the subtotal with the BT module added (+20$):



The lower red-circled area is the scuff mark, soon to be replaced with two brand new, spotless gray panels.

System Properties:


Notice the Ageia PhysX board, X9000 Extreme CPU, DVDRW/BluRay Disk, and twin 8800M-GTX SLI.

So did I get the system for $2500? Yes I did, but there are two things no one will never escape: death and taxes. The extra $300 3-year complete care package is a no-brainer since it covers everything, even accidental damage. The LCD display alone is $1200 if you should ever have to replace it out-of-pocket...

Okay, well you said refurb not scratch 'n dent.

And adding another $1100 to my purchase isn't an option so no, the advice of "just get a better computer" isn't helpful.

Refurbs and Scratch/Dent are pretty much the same in Dell's eyes, but you may have (more) cosmetic marks on the S/D units. Some S/D's have never been opened by customers, but the packing box suffered damage during transit, so Dell cannot technically resell it as new despite never having been delivered or used. The Dell Outlet cannot re-sell any model with any marks larger than 1" regardless of the classification. All marked exterior components can be replaced post-purchase for far less than buying new. Even if you don't like the unit, you have 21 days from delivery to return the product with zero cost out of pocket. Result: zero risk for buying and trying. My scratch/dent looks absolutely new aside from the noted area which is only visible in reflected light, and that component will be replaced in less than 4 days.

My point wasn't to suggest throwing more hardware at the memory issue. My intent to answer your 1st post inquiry:

The system you ordered was fair at $2319 USD, but there are better options available. My system really was $2511 as shown by the receipt vs. your Gateway's $2319. If you don't consider getting 2x the hardware (x9000 2.8 to 3.4ghz CPU, 8800M-GTX SLI, DVDRW/BluRay ROM, Ageia PhysX card, etc...) at +$180 or 8% cost difference helpful, then I think you're missing more than just system RAM count...

EDIT: BTW, where did you get the +$1100 difference? I just checked the Dell outlet and found a few M1730's with 8800SLI's... but they got snatched up by the bots as usual. Gotta wait another 15-min to see them.

Also, is it too late to cancel or return your Gateway order? If so, then I can see why this advice isn't helpful... for that I apologize.

As far as the memory topic, if the missing 12%+ RAM bothers you too much, just make the 64-bit leap. Personally, I've never noticed it, and I do some pretty memory intensive apps like large image editing, video transcoding, etc...

I didn't purchase Office, Norton, etc, and I went with the 1-year repair deal instead of the 3-yr, so my purchase was only $1950. Your deal was like $3050, which is a big difference. So almost an $1100 difference. If it was less than that, I'd jump on that Dell 1730.

I think the system I ordered is a pretty good deal for under $2k.

It's not too late to cancel my Gateway order as it shouldn't ship until the 12th or 13th of May. After that I can return it if I want for 21 days.

Gateway doesn't sell the 64-bit version of Vista on any of their machines for some reason. So going that route isn't possible without buying from a whole different company.

I called Gateway to ask what's up with no 64... They said they had way too many tech support calls that boiled down to poor support for 64-bit drivers, etc, so Gateway is only selling 32-bit presently. The guy said they'll go back to selling 64-bit in the future but there was no word as to when....

I've been sorting through the dell refub pile for a couple days now and haven't seen any of the 8800 SLIs. The filter doesn't help much in picking them up... Any tips on the filter?

I see HEAPS of 8700 SLIs which, from what I understand is a poor option. A single 8800 GTS (much less a 8800 GTX) beats SLI'd 8700s handily in every bench I'm reading. Wonder why there are so many of these 8700 SLIs laying around? Not only that, but they look way overpriced even S/D...

The $2511 price in my quote came with a 1 year factory warranty... with my local 8.25% sales tax, that comes out to $2718 without the 3-year on-site accidental damage warranty. If I were to order your current Gateway at its current $1999, the total comes out to $2164. Difference = $554, or about 20% price difference, as opposed to $1100. This is a more accurate figure given just the base unit prices + my local sales tax -- unless Gateway sells tax-free.

As far as navigating the Dell Outlet inventory page... it does take time. I spent a few days waiting for the right system, even letting a few good units slip by, before punching the purchase button. My recommendations on the inventory filter: set the notebook model to the XPS M1730, then the video memory filter to 1gig. Sort by processor speed descending order if there are more than 1 page worth of 8800m-GTX-SLI's (not likely though). Refresh the web page every 15 minutes or as frequently as possible once you see the bot cart-returns starting to appear. This will maximize your odds of getting the right unit. Once you see any M1730 even remotely tempting, add it to your cart immediately! Then you can examine the system specs more carefully after you've locked it in your cart. Regardless of cart-activity, that unit will return to the inventory pool after 15 minutes of idle time or 1 hour elapses.

I just found this on the Dell Outlet at 9AM PDT:

View Details

Z2RGM96A Select - Certified Refurbished
$2,859.00 XPS M1730 Bone White Intel Core 2 Extreme - 2800 Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 17 200 GB Free Fall Sensor Hard Drive 9.5MM (7200);200GB Free Fall Sensor Hard Drive 9.5MM (7200) 2nd Drive 4000 DVD/RW NVIDIA SLI Dual GeForce 8800M GTX with 1GB GDDR3 Memory;AGEIA PhysX Physics Accelerator Intel 4965 802.11a/g/n Dual-Band Mini Card Laptop


That 2nd HD drive does add to the price, but if you can find another unit without it, then you'll be set.

Good luck with the hunt.

How do you know if they have 32 or 64-bit Vista Home Prem? Cant seem to find it.

Unless it says otherwise, it's 32bit. Almost undoubtedly an OEM version, which means no 64bit version on-disc. Which leaves you to do the same as I did - buy a damn expensive retail version :/

Wouldn't I need to fiddle with a 64-bit motherboard driver though? If they make one?

Strangely, Gateway does, even though they only sell 32-bit.

I went ahead and sprung for one of these. Looks like it was the exact same one.

Like you said, if I get it and I want to return it - if I feel it's not worth the cash, has a defect I can't get over, etc - I can. I like that Dell gives their refurbs the same warranty as new machines....

It's a lot of money, but meh, I want a machine that will be very nice for the next 3 years.

Glad to hear it. That model I found this morning does have an X7900 CPU as opposed to an X9000, but primary difference with that chip is the 4MB L2 cache vs. 6MB, and no unlocked multiplier. However, you shouldn't be OC'ing a laptop CPU anyway

Since Dell Refurbs are pre-assembled, you'll probably be seeing your order some time this next week.

As with most gaming laptops, the M1730 doesn't last long outside AC-power -- perhaps 90 minutes with minimal power settings. The one exception is the Alienware M15X, but you're looking at an easy 4k+ with that set-up. You can price it out at www.alienware.com just for comparison. It won't come close to the XPS M1730 in terms of features, but it is a 15.4" that can switch from the NVidia 8800M-GTX to the integrated video as needed.

Anyway, I'm still under the effects of new-laptop smell with the M1730. Its SLI performance is pretty sweet, even with very GPU-intensive games like UT3, Hellgate London, etc. It should have no problems running GW2.

EDIT:
Other useful links...
Dell's Total Satisfaction Guarantee: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=150450

User forums on www.notebookreview.com: http://forum.notebookreview.com/

Regardless of which laptop you ultimately settle with, I hope you find the best laptop for the given price (I'm pretty sure both of us did well).

Let me re-phrase what I said before - hopefully it will be "helpful"

Yes, the Ram is "wasted". But the RAM is cheap, and may be used in the future.

There is no practical, or significantly less expensive, way to get that much RAM (3+gigs). If you try to use 1x2gig RAM and 1x1gig RAM, you will end up with 3gigs (but less than the 3+ gigs), but you will also screw the dual-channel configuration of the RAM and get lower performance (if the laptop even lets you do this). At today's prices 2x2gigs of DDR2 costs at most, $12 more than 1x2gig + 1x1gig. It's not worth worrying about the wasted RAM.

Vista SP1 now reports the full 4gigs of RAM, but it still only uses 3+ gigs.

No, no matter what some techie geeks will tell you, you won't see any significant performance increase by using expensive "overclocker" RAM. Some people like to overclock their rigs, and/or squeeze every drop of perf they can out of it, and/or pimp it. That's what they enjoy, (and there's nothing wrong with it) but, just like "pimping your ride" doesn't get you to work any faster, faster RAM doesn't make GW work much better either.

How much RAM did it read before SP1?

The dude at Dell said it would read about 3.5G. But he didnt sound 100% sure. And yeah, Vista SP1 just makes it say 4 GHz. It doesn't actually access that much though.

I believe it read 3.25 gigs before I installed Vista SP1, though please don't quote me on that. Do you have a specific app that needs all 4gigs visible? I've never used any such app myself

Also, I did make an error above: The X7900's multiplier is unlocked just like the X9000. However, the X7900 is a 65nm chip, while the X9000 is a 45nm chip. Otherwise they're pretty close in performance. Either way, you can overclock the CPU in your incoming M1730, though I don't recommend this.

Here's a useful processor ID link if you want more Intel CPU-specifics: http://processorfinder.intel.com/

EDIT: The maximum addressable memory for Windows is 4gigs total, including video memory. Therefore, the more video memory you have, the less RAM you have available. My system should have read 3.5 gigs RAM if my video card was 512MB. I don't know how this works once SLI enters the picture, but if I had to guess, it would also cut into the 4gig RAM's total and drop the maximum addressable RAM to 3gigs. Hope that makes sense.