Gambling your life away online - an article about what a Chinese MMO is like

darkdreamr

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

beyond the yellow brick road

She Left With Half My [GeAr]

Me/

And what GW2 might be like if Anet isn't careful...

http://www.danwei.org/electronic_gam...away_in_zt.php

It's a long read, but it's worth it.

pumpkin pie

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

3 cheers for Guild Wars' free to pay forever policy!

Witchblade

Witchblade

Polar Bear Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

that's how all MMO will end up in some years ...
there is quite a market there.

why asking for a couple gold coins for a key or a sword when you can get some $

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

Never mind. Cake is on the house!

MSecorsky

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

It's actually quite the story.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

This is why I've decided to not buy any games that aren't free to play. Pay-to-play games focus on milking more and more money out of the consumer, rather than being fun. This applies to all the business models out there - mandatory subscription, optional subscription, paying for items, etc. This runs counter to everything a good game should be.

By contrast, free-to-play games have to focus on being fun, since their goals are to sell more games and to make you buy their next game. Fortunately for Guild Wars (and unfortunately for me) this is the only game of note in the genre with this system, so I'll likely continue throwing money at them.

Orange Milk

Orange Milk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Ganking, USA

Retired

R/

ALL High level cap or no cap at all equiptment based MMo's will be like this someday. People don't like the grind, so they WILL spend the money to gain levels, they WILL spend the money to get the super leet best equiptment, in some cases. ZT is a game for a niche of people and not a casual gamer, because of time and cost it's geared towards those who don't have teh time to grind up, but do have teh RL money too.

Thats why I like Guild Wars. I don't like the title grinds, but I do like the fact that it is easy to get to the level of balance between you and other characters in game and if you miss a few days you don't fall behind.

I tried EvE Online and found it VERY boreing, no extra money to get things but if you were not "learning" every second of REAL time you were falling behind.

I was surprised to read how her husband didn't game but just about everyone else she knew did.

Those exploding gems though, thats funny shit, worse than lock picks and Cofers as a gold sink, or RL money sink in this case.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkin pie
3 cheers for Guild Wars' free to pay forever policy!
Free to pay?

Choose your words carefully

phan

phan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

phantasmagoria

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice Black
Never mind. Cake is on the house!
i'll take a peace ; if isn't french cake ofc xD

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Think of this as a continuum, with the expansion-based model of GW at one end (free servers) and the game in question at the other.

Even in GW, if you want to be the "richest" player, the player with the highest ranking in a title, or whatever, the same dynamic over time exists. Time > skill, although skill is a pre-requisite for this sort of objective.

However, GW permits you to actually enjoy the game without succumbing to full-on grind; it further permits you to enjoy the game without having to pay for items and the like. GW does so by not setting up the Darwinian kill-or-be-killed environment of the game. In the game as described, clearly level and gear determine outcomes, and gear is only attainable through spending real-life cash.

I don't think there's a danger of ALL pay-for-play games turning into this model; clearly there's a demand for this model, and the game satisfies that demand. However, it's equally apparent that most Americans and Europeans just don't want to play something that is such a thinly concealed attempt to suck money out of one's wallet.

Longasc

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

Hehe, this is great.

The makers of the game cash in the fact that people are willing to spend enormous sums for increased e-peen size.

Very good for the guys who had the idea, but the idea smells to me as an European. I play computer games for fun and they usually get worse when real money gets in or e-sports attitudes. Your imagination cannot really soar if it is tied to real life earnings, IMO.

FengShuiDove

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

Interesting and a little bit sad. "WTB 250 Z-Keys $.10 per!" anyone?

In all seriousness though, the format of the "warring kingdoms" sounds similar to what they've planned for "World PvP" in GW2. I like the concept as it adds a more RP feel.

However I'm pretty content with the weaponry and armor system of Guild Wars. The stuff you have reflects your efforts but doesn't really give you additional in-game benefit. I hope that with the higher level cap in GW2 it doesn't create *much* striation between tiers of players, though I think it would be good to have a minimal amount. Level 20 is just too easy and doesn't really reflect any ability to play the game per se. In my opinion, it would be great if there were two to four different level caps. Say, Level 70 for completing campaigns and gaining experience in what we now have as "Normal Mode," Level 80 by gaining experience in NM Elite Areas, 90 by HM campaigning and 100 by HM Elite Areas. As long as the levels don't reward attribute points at the same (rising) rate and instead offer diminishing gains per level, this could create some "kingly" figures without separating the game into "gods" and "peasants."

At any rate, I think it's fascinating that a whole nation/topographical group of people were quite honestly preyed upon. Reminds me of Big Brother playing on people's fears and attitudes.

Nice find.

EDIT: The word "rising" replaced by [skill]Rising Bile[/skill]?

Use ( instead of [, because the [ ] tags are part of our skill code, and certain words will show up as skill icons.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

So... it's a normal hobby?

People with money who take their hobbies seriously spend that money to buy "exclusive" or "top tier" equipment even when they're not professionals. It doesn't matter if we're talking about tennis racquets or running shoes or fishing rods, selling expensive toys to hobbyists is, always was, and always will be a good way to make money.

It's not even new to video gaming. Back in "the day" companies used to make money selling fancy programmable game pads (or even just arcade-style joysticks if you remember the good old days of the NES) that were VERY good at giving you an edge in certain games, especially 1v1 fighters. How many people here own a G15 or similar programmable keyboard? High DPI mouse?

It's just a natural extension of a normal phenomenon. People want an edge and they're willing to pay for it. This is just one more way to accomodate that demand.

Nightmares Hammer

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
This is why I've decided to not buy any games that aren't free to play. Pay-to-play games focus on milking more and more money out of the consumer, rather than being fun. This applies to all the business models out there - mandatory subscription, optional subscription, paying for items, etc. This runs counter to everything a good game should be.

By contrast, free-to-play games have to focus on being fun, since their goals are to sell more games and to make you buy their next game. Fortunately for Guild Wars (and unfortunately for me) this is the only game of note in the genre with this system, so I'll likely continue throwing money at them.
I agree. *throws wads of money at ANet*

RiKio

RiKio

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Plato's Cave

W/E

Spending money for making you better at a game is a fail IMO. Games are supposed to be played for fun.

And not everybody is ready for paying money for a game...

Karuro

Karuro

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2008

The Netherlands, Europe

Mystic Spiral [MYST]

W/

And that is why I don't play p2p games.
It's just wasting money in the end.

Foe

Foe

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

interesting read, I disagree with the post proclaiming all games will adopt this model. Why has GW been so successful? At least half of the people playing guildwars are here due to the fact there is no monthly fee. If Anet were to adopt a monthly fee or a model similar to the one in the article they would be in the poor house quickly. Anet has proven their current model has a huge market and if they were to abandon it another company would step in over night to fill the gap. Also such a game would take no one by surprise here in the "west" as its motives would be instantly recognized and QQstormed on every forum/board/publication. There are also MANY cultural differences in play here. For example supa hottie MDs don't play WoW with all of their limited free time shhhhh, aht, no, nope, uhuh, not one

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

wow...that game sounds seriously scary, near the end it was sounding like "1984 Online" I mean when you can't even mention the game devolpers name in game and can be sent of to ingame prison by the game designers with no warning....downright creepy.

I mean the whole thing is deisgned to make money more effeciently than any other pay to play MMO before but the ingame atmoshpere it created sounds really scary. Clearly the devs of that game work quite hard to hide the fact that the whole thing is designed to suck money from players and not actually provide a truely engaging game experience, the fact that the original article was suppressed by them seems to show that all to clearly.

damn...thank god for Anets entirely fee free system

Turbobusa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

By the Luxon Scavenger

The Mentalists [THPK]

N/

ahahah no skill required... *points and laugh*.
Great businessmen, fail players.
I can only applaud the devs for making money that way and spit on their game for promoting stupidity.

toastgodsupreme

toastgodsupreme

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

United States

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Those exploding gems though, thats funny shit, worse than lock picks and Cofers as a gold sink, or RL money sink in this case.
Oh that's taken straight from L2 (who I'm sure got it from some other game).

First you have to gather materials to craft your armor and weapons. And believe me, the high end gear costs a ton just to craft.

Then you can upgrade your gear. If you go beyond a certain level, you risk breaking your gear completely and losing not just your upgrades to it, but the gear itself.

Oh yeah, Ragnarok Online does this too. Forgot about that.

So yeah, that just means you have to go out and farm all those mats again or spend more gold (which you probably don't have) to make a new weapon or armor piece.

Private servers for a long time have been allowing people to buy equipment upgrades in exchange for "donations". This company seems to have capitalized on that idea, though it sounds like they've gotten quite greedy and stopped being slick about it.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

I liked how DAOC did it with deteriorating armors and weapons over time. This kept the player crafting market always active as everyone would have to replace their gear eventually. Of course I think the whine and the cry became loud enough that some of the more elite dropped items didn't deteriorate and of course this eventually ruined the player crafting market.

SWG's when it first came out used the same principle with weapons and thus after so much use you had to buy another one. But, the whines and cries and then the total overhaul of the whole game ruined it totally and over 1/2 the population left.

I feel nothing should last forever, it doesn't in the real world and shouldn't in the game world. Weapons and armor should become old and used and need to be replaced eventually. But, GW has no real player crafters like DAOC or SWG anybody can craft the same exact items in GW without any experience. They should have made crafting something you gained experience in so those that enjoy player crafting could have made a business out of it and profits.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctb
It's just a natural extension of a normal phenomenon. People want an edge and they're willing to pay for it. This is just one more way to accomodate that demand.
True, and this illustrate how far from the "traditionnal" communism China actually is. It's strange to think of this happenning, though not so much when you think it's digital and the article kind of state the "socialist" point (a different topic I guess).

I remember reading this article 6 months ago and it reinforced the impression that I had that MMO can turn very bad in China, where monopoly is not a problem. I also read a few other articles on this article saying the reported was biaised. But may be it was propaganda.

What "frightened" me is how brutal their MMO was and how difficult the game could be if you're an "average" player. A spirit very much in contradiction with GW. And I think it's wrong when money and pleasure mix so intricately.

ThunderStruck

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

The Arctic Marauders [TAM]

I honestly don't think a game like that could work in America. I mean, I know kids use their parents to help pay for subscriptions to other games, but constantly recurring payments might kill the playerbase.

EPO Bot

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

Great article! If this isn't the best argument against real money for gear, i don't know it anymore.

Reading it actually made me feel uncomfortable. We all know how easy it is to be sucked up by a game like that. ANET seems almost altruistic compared to it.

zamial

zamial

Site Contributor

Join Date: Apr 2006

Usa

TKC

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderStruck
I honestly don't think a game like that could work in America. I mean, I know kids use their parents to help pay for subscriptions to other games, but constantly recurring payments might kill the playerbase.
Not an American based game but plenty of Americans playing it.
http://www.entropiauniverse.com/index.var

That is a free to play free to DL game but oooooo beware of the money sucking void that it is, I "donated" 20.00 and it was gone in less than 6 hours. GW forever.

Balan Makki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Quote:
Chinese players always have ways of quickly ascending levels that leave European and American gamers in the dust
They're like a swarm of gnats. When questing in WoW, their would be a rogue (Chinese farmer) at ever step, three at every node, two following behind you trying to skin your kill before you could blink. Not gnats, more like a school of blue fish, bouncing off of everything, consuming anything they could get their mouth around. Go to China, you rarely see a bird in a tree, nor beast or rodent about. Piranhas, that's it they're like a frenzied school of piranhas. . .

Persistent Worlds are really not very fun after having been spoil by GW. I just can't help but feel like I'm in an medieval theme park, and everyone is running to the next ride with sword and staff wearing their fruity costumes. Though in AoC beta, half the 12 year old boys are playing a buxom nude female. . . oh yeah~

But seriously. China is on the cusp of becoming a first world free-market power. They're spending their yen as a means of virtual empowerment. I've seen people waist their money, lots of it, on worse things. Unfortunately evercrack is not something that's easy to cure.

Takeko Nakano

Takeko Nakano

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Great Britain

W/P

Interesting article. Goes to show why paying for stuff in a game should be banned. Earn things through play, not shedding out cash. Maybe unlocking all skills for the purposes of PvP, as has been done in the past, is ok - but not giving out equipment that no one else can get and is way above what they can normally access.

Prokiller88

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2008

A/

After reading that article, it does not surprise me.. Asian based games are based on levels + equipment and micro payments, although 1000rmb is not a micro payment. It gets competitive in everything because its the classic kill or be killed scenario. Besides that, the whole asian honor thing is on the line in these games. I just hate the way that they say its F2P while the game forces the p2p concept. I hope Guild Wars 2 does not become like this, gaming addictions are kinda hard to get rid of until you completely own the whole thing and no one can beat you, which almost will never happen because theres always someone better.

Steps_Descending

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

I remember seeing a thread about ANet selling gold for real money, while not being the best counter to that proposition, a crying example of the consequences of mixing real world resources and gaming.

Thank you Chinese for games of those kind, we need them to see what is to be avoided.

StormDragonZ

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

If I start playing a game and find out in order to actually do anything past the point of starting that I have to spend real money for upgrades or special things, then I know I'm not playing a game. I'm just wasting my time ...

There is no such thing as playing a game anymore to some people. That saddens me...

But hell, if people want to do it, I'm not going to force them to not do so. If you got money to spend to make pixels look GO RED ENGINE cool, by all means, go ahead.

Sure as hell wont get me to become that vain...

darkdreamr

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

beyond the yellow brick road

She Left With Half My [GeAr]

Me/

Nice discussion, good points all around. Obviously this is an extreme case, and it is completely blatant (at least, from the outside) as opposed to the more subtle moneymakers like, I dunno, griffon travel in WoW forcing you to pay to waste your time watching the same movie over and over again. I think in North America, micropayments that prevalent are still unacceptable (although come to think of it I spent $10 on a char slot).

It's a good point that many hobbies are expensive, especially when you try to distinguish yourself from your peers. For me, what is fulfilling is becoming more skilled over time. I like GW because I always feel like there's someone better than me. As soon as I feel like the only distinguishing factor is time spent or gear acquired through grind, I'm out.

I hope GW2 strikes a good balance between what we need and what ANet needs to make money and pay those awesome artists.

PS. That exploding gems thing is just...insane. I'm not an angry person but I would ragequit in real life if that ever happened to me.

Alexandra-Sweet

Alexandra-Sweet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

That one place with the trees, mountains and snow

Ember Power Mercenaries [EMP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Pay-to-play games focus on milking more and more money out of the consumer, rather than being fun. This applies to all the business models out there - mandatory subscription, optional subscription, paying for items, etc. This runs counter to everything a good game should be.

By contrast, free-to-play games have to focus on being fun, since their goals are to sell more games and to make you buy their next game. Fortunately for Guild Wars (and unfortunately for me) this is the only game of note in the genre with this system, so I'll likely continue throwing money at them.
Last time I checked you need to buy Guild Wars, making it a P2P game.

As for Asian MMORPGs, you can recreate the grand canyon faster with a tea spoon than actually finishing the game, the amount of grind in Asian MMOs makes you desperate to buy all the fancy ingame items they offer so you might see some daylight after finishing the game. SO NOT FUN AT ALL.

Phoenix Tears

Phoenix Tears

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2007

Imo is a shame, should all mmos end up like this, because to create games that are totally based on grind and lets players to buy stuff ect, just to get rid of the braindead grind is a sign for the game's devs to be too stupid to create a good game with good thought out gameplay systems, that are balanced, so that players don't have to grind for eternities, to receive the best equipment.

Its no game anymore, when you have to pay for every shit real money, just so you have not to grind otherwise for like a half year+ to get somethign done in the game due to insane stupid thought out gameplay systems full of grind concepts, which have no other purpose, other then driving players into online addiction.


It would be alot better, when more companies would follow the good lead example of ANet and would bring out in future more good high qualitative MMO's with NO mothly fees, where the players have just to pay for the core game and the bigger add ons and the rest of money gets made via an online Store, where players can buy Merchandise and ingame features, that bring players no direct unfair advantages over others, like buying more chara slots ect. liek we see it in our Store yet.

This should be the future for the MMO market and not the wrong direction of making the market again only more back to a scene, where you have to pay monthy for any game fees, or where only the rich players are strongest, that are willing to spent big amounts of real money, just so that they get in the game their ultimative charas >.>

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet
Last time I checked you need to buy Guild Wars, making it a P2P game.

As for Asian MMORPGs, you can recreate the grand canyon faster with a tea spoon than actually finishing the game, the amount of grind in Asian MMOs makes you desperate to buy all the fancy ingame items they offer so you might see some daylight after finishing the game. SO NOT FUN AT ALL.
Guild Wars is pay-to-buy, but free to play. Pay-to-play means that as long as you are playing a game, you will be continuously bleeding out cash. I'm willing to dish out piles of money for good games, but the subscription games tend to artificially drag out playtime to milk customers. This completely ruins them for me, even the hugely popular ones - WoW, Eve, Everquest, etc. I could never get into paying money out the nose while waiting patiently for something fun to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot
Reading it actually made me feel uncomfortable. We all know how easy it is to be sucked up by a game like that. ANET seems almost altruistic compared to it.
For all the flak Anet catches on these forums for not giving out more free stuff, not fixing bugs, bad balancing decisions, etc., they are leaps and bounds beyond most other developers on customer relations. Consider all the free updates, skill balancing, festivals and such that are still showing up consistently after 3 years. Name one other free game with this level of support. Very few other companies even come close to this - Valve and Blizzard excluding WoW come to mind. ArenaNet is simply amazing when you consider that the customer relations from scum-sucking companies like EA are the norm in the industry.


Also, relevant pic for the tl;dr crowd:

EPO Bot

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

Oh man! That comic shows exactly why my initial exitement about Hellgate London vaporized faster then an icecube in the core of the Canis majoris star.

Darwin = not fun. Not even for the top of the foodchain players because they constantly need to grind just to stay on top.

Jam Jar

Jam Jar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

[Disc]

W/

As long if ANet doesn't make Guild Wars Pay2Play, then everything should be A.O.K.!

Right...

Etta

Etta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Mancland, British Empire

In some case cash shops in those free to play games are worst than the monthly fee. I heard about people spending 50-100$ in GE (Sword of the new world in the US/EU) all the time, granted most of the cash items can be trade with ingame money. But still, spending that much is just really stupid, aint it?

Ah well whatever turn they on, I guess. *Off to play GTA4

Buzzer

Buzzer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Australia

Coveted rewards for the mosts chests opened and exploding stars based on chance?
Jesus how are people getting caught up in this? It's so ridiculously blatant.

newgame

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2006

I only know most Taiwan players like MMO can make money, can buy weapon by real money,can kill monster and player in game.

So guildwar in Taiwan,hk sell less 1000 (rare Taiwan,hk player play GW becaues it can't make money to change real money).

Taiwan (one country on earth) player signed/

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

I'm not sure how people can consider it 'wasting' money to spend RL cash on in-game things.

In pretty much every situation, the speed at which a person earns money IRL is relatively higher to their farming ability. Why farm for 100 hours and make however much gold when you can work for 100 hours, actually maybe develop in real life, and make enough money to buy that amount of gold and have plenty left over?

If anything, farming ingame is wasting time and buying with real cash is more efficient. It's largely a knee-jerk reaction to the concept that keeps people on the 'omg money waste' bandwagon.

I'd prefer a game where grinding currency for items isn't necessary whatsoever (Guild Wars gets close but the unlock grind is still immense), but when it comes down to it, most rpgs are going to have that because they don't have the depth of gameplay to add replay value beyond artificially lengthening the game through grind goals.

The game in the article isn't so much different to games where time spent grinding determines the winner. RPGs by nature tend not to be designed with skill as a deciding factor - how many people are willing to focus on developing skill compared to a clearly defined numerical stat? Players with a flat advantage over others due to equipment or whatnot are pretty much a given in every game - Guild Wars is an exception due to the exceptionally low caps on equipment and levels which helps remove the benefit of grinding. Acting as if the game in the article is something significant or astonishing is rather naive considering the nature of almost every game online.