AI Update on Dwayna's Sorrow
Chthon
Anyone know if the AI will cast it on minions now? I'm dying to try this out on olias.
Fuzzy Taco
if so, y hello thar [feast for the dead] + [dwayna's sorrow] bomber.
Jamster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco
if so, y hello thar [feast for the dead] + [dwayna's sorrow] bomber.
y hello thar
Turbobusa
I wouldn't use dwayna's sorrow except in a jagged bomber build tbh, which is why I wouldn't use it with feast for the dead.
But I guess it can work on a regular MM bar...
But I guess it can work on a regular MM bar...
Fuzzy Taco
why wouldn't you carry feast on a Jagged bomber? it'll pretty much replace BotM on those builds now, and, considering how much they bond up the minions, you'll still get the explosions you always wanted.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco
why wouldn't you carry feast on a Jagged bomber? it'll pretty much replace BotM on those builds now,
Because bombers didn't need BotM in the first place. Their minions exist solely to die (again) and JB is usually adequate for crossing inter-mob stretches.
Back on topic, can anyone answer the first question?
Back on topic, can anyone answer the first question?
Fuzzy Taco
in that case, might Moloch's old Infuse / Taste build be epic now?
Turbobusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
Back on topic, can anyone answer the first question?
They cast it on minion fairly fast from what I've seen. They also renew it, I haven't tested if they wait for the minions to be balled up.
They use putrid flesh as an offensive spell (and Olias used it against human foes...lol), feast as a healing/renew spell. Haven't tested taste of death.
They use putrid flesh as an offensive spell (and Olias used it against human foes...lol), feast as a healing/renew spell. Haven't tested taste of death.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco
if so, y hello thar [feast for the dead] + [dwayna's sorrow] bomber.
why hello there 
distilledwill
Yeah, they cast it on minions. But it doesnt heal the surrounding minions, if thats what you want. Its still definately worth the skill slot.
This is what my Olias uses:
[Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood Of The Master][Dwayna's Sorrow][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Signet Of Lost Souls]
10 in heal
16 death
9 SR.
This is what my Olias uses:
[Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood Of The Master][Dwayna's Sorrow][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Signet Of Lost Souls]
10 in heal
16 death
9 SR.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco
why wouldn't you carry feast on a Jagged bomber? it'll pretty much replace BotM on those builds now, and, considering how much they bond up the minions, you'll still get the explosions you always wanted.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Dwayna's Sorrow doesn't heal minions.
Unless you're saying that you can drop BotM because you want minions to die sooner. But that would seriously hinder your ability to maintain an army between battles.
Dwayna's Sorrow doesn't heal minions.
Unless you're saying that you can drop BotM because you want minions to die sooner. But that would seriously hinder your ability to maintain an army between battles.
Dwayna's Sorrow doesn't heal minions.
Fuzzy Taco
DS never healed minions, no. what i meant (and said pretty awkwardly) was that they will use Feast on Jagged-bonded minions, so you get a heal for the army between battles and lose nothing. the DS bomber is going to be absolutely ferocious when it hits mainstream.
cellardweller
Massive upgrade for Hero Minion Necs. Mine are now running this and I can feel the difference right away.
[Empathic Removal][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][putrid explosion][putrid bile][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet Of Lost Souls][resurrection signet]
(Replacing ER with JB in low corpse areas of course)
[Empathic Removal][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][putrid explosion][putrid bile][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet Of Lost Souls][resurrection signet]
(Replacing ER with JB in low corpse areas of course)
joshuarodger
so let me get this straight.
1. an enemy dies
2. olias uses [animate bone minions]
3. he enchants them with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] hopefully while they're all grouped up
4. they begin dying and all nearby human party members get healed for somewhere around 30-40 health each time one dies, while enemies take somewhere around 90-100 damage and suffer from poison each time one dies
5. the new jagged horrors get enchanted with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] and inflict bleeding at the same time.
6. the process repeats itself over and over again.
this will be beautiful if this is all accurate.
1. an enemy dies
2. olias uses [animate bone minions]
3. he enchants them with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] hopefully while they're all grouped up
4. they begin dying and all nearby human party members get healed for somewhere around 30-40 health each time one dies, while enemies take somewhere around 90-100 damage and suffer from poison each time one dies
5. the new jagged horrors get enchanted with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] and inflict bleeding at the same time.
6. the process repeats itself over and over again.
this will be beautiful if this is all accurate.
Axel Zinfandel
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger
so let me get this straight.
1. an enemy dies
2. olias uses [animate bone minions]
3. he enchants them with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] hopefully while they're all grouped up
4. they begin dying and all nearby human party members get healed for somewhere around 30-40 health each time one dies, while enemies take somewhere around 90-100 damage and suffer from poison each time one dies
5. the new jagged horrors get enchanted with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] and inflict bleeding at the same time.
6. the process repeats itself over and over again.
this will be beautiful if this is all accurate. Actually, DS ENCHANTS target ally and all nearby allies, but HEALS all your party, like a weak heal party.
1. an enemy dies
2. olias uses [animate bone minions]
3. he enchants them with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] hopefully while they're all grouped up
4. they begin dying and all nearby human party members get healed for somewhere around 30-40 health each time one dies, while enemies take somewhere around 90-100 damage and suffer from poison each time one dies
5. the new jagged horrors get enchanted with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] and inflict bleeding at the same time.
6. the process repeats itself over and over again.
this will be beautiful if this is all accurate. Actually, DS ENCHANTS target ally and all nearby allies, but HEALS all your party, like a weak heal party.
joshuarodger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel
hence,
Quote:
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Originally Posted by joshuarodger
hopefully while they're all grouped up
i did have to reread for the "your party is healed for..." thank you for correcting me. no need to be nearby for the heal.
even more beautiful!!! Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger
so let me get this straight.
1. an enemy dies 2. olias uses [animate bone minions] 3. he enchants them with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] hopefully while they're all grouped up 4. they begin dying and all nearby human party members get healed for somewhere around 30-40 health each time one dies, while enemies take somewhere around 90-100 damage and suffer from poison each time one dies 5. the new jagged horrors get enchanted with [jagged bones] [death nova] [dwayna's sorr] and inflict bleeding at the same time. 6. the process repeats itself over and over again. this will be beautiful if this is all accurate. You understand correctly, and that indeed seems to be what happens. I checked it out this evening and was pleased to see a pretty nice stream of +29's popping up.
Bront
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Dwayna's Sorrow doesn't heal minions.
No, but Feast of the Dead does, and the one that dies becomes a jagged.
Idealy at least.
Bront
Time for some 4 man Vanquishes...
distilledwill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bront
Time for some 4 man Vanquishes...
damn straight, ive been rolling my way over Cantha for the past few days, its been a breeze.
Moloch Vein
This sounds really promising, will have to check it out when I get home.
If this is indeed true I'm going to update the sticky a lot with this, because it's a HUGE addition to a MB build. I need a major overhaul on the sticky. I'll create this as soon as I get home. In the meantime this is the new "baseline" build for a hero Minion Bomber, for which, by now, there is NO reason to go other than /Mo which completely outclasses all other options. [build prof=N/Mo name="Hero Minion Bomber May 2008" death=12+1+3 soulr=8+1 healing=10 desc="Weapon Set: Spear w/ 20% enchantments, Focus (Healing or Death Magic) w/ Master Of My Domain/20%"][Jagged Bones][Infuse Condition][Death Nova][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Bone Minions][Heal Area][Feast For The Dead][Foul Feast][/build] Will try Infuse Health and see if the hero still infuses minions (urgh.) cgruber
I usually run the sabway curse and mm minons along with a healing prayers monk so I tossed dwanyas sorrow on him and it seemed to work pretty well. Not sure if he was specifically targeting the minions or another front liner but they certainly were getting enchanted with it.
Carinae
Moloch, don't run HA on a hero. They won't use it properly, and it's very expensive. I know you just trying to get the most out of your spec in Healing, but ...
Actually, what I'd do is drop HA and ABM and take Vamps and Fiends. [Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Animate Vampiric Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Dwayna's Sorrow][Feast For The Dead][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition] This is a strong build, on paper. I'm gonna have Olias run it and see how it does. Best of all worlds: Party healing, party condition removal, self-heal and e-management, NO sacrifice spells (which compensates for lacking Dark Bond), minions contribute damage, better meatshields. On a different note: Death Nova still needs a recharge time to keep Olias from spamming it in inappropriate situations.
Hatchet Child
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
On a different note: Death Nova still needs a recharge time to keep Olias from spamming it in inappropriate situations.
That is the only thing that annoys me about MBs.
The hero uses it at the wrong time nearly all the time. Back on topic it's also the FFtD and ToD that's been updated right? Well my Livia 'Still' Refuses to use it. Moloch knows of my whining about the two skills i mentioned & the heroes actually using them, Could just be me but she's not using it. --Justi Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
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Quote: [build prof=N/Mo name="Hero Minion Bomber May 2008" death=12+1+3 soulr=8+1 healing=10 desc="Weapon Set: Spear w/ 20% enchantments, Focus (Healing or Death Magic) w/ Master Of My Domain/20%"][Jagged Bones][Infuse Condition][Death Nova][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Bone Minions][Heal Area][Feast For The Dead][Foul Feast][/build] 1. I'm going to have to agree with Carinae on HA. At least, I don't see it as central to the build.
2. Why Feast for the Dead? A MB doesn't exactly need a minion heal. Unless they're using it for active minion detonation really well. Are they? And better than Taste (a pretty decent emergency self-heal)?
Quote: Will try Infuse Health and see if the hero still infuses minions (urgh.) I was going to ask about that. I still remember laughing my ass off the first time that happened. (Although Olias did save me at least once with infuse that run...)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Actually, what I'd do is drop HA and ABM and take Vamps and Fiends.
1. Is the AI smart enough to feast the jaggies and not the expensive minions?
[Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Animate Vampiric Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Dwayna's Sorrow][Feast For The Dead][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition] 1. Is the AI smart enough to feast the jaggies and not the expensive minions? 2. Feast can only keep a minion's delta(health) positive up through 5 degen (80 sec); after that natural degen is going to outpace healing. Is that a long enough lifespan for fiends/horrors to really fill out an army? Long enough to be worth he investment? Quote:
It's a minion-popper. It's this or ToD. He already has 3 healing sources and no sac spells, but no minion heal. Figured it rounded the build better than ToD.
Quote: |
Probably not. But these minions deal damage before they pop, and they are better meatshields, even Fiends @18 are better than BM @14.
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Originally Posted by Chthon
2. Feast can only keep a minion's delta(health) positive up through 5 degen (80 sec); after that natural degen is going to outpace healing. Is that a long enough lifespan for fiends/horrors to really fill out an army? Long enough to be worth he investment?
I don't want a fulll on MM army. I want them to die fast, but not TOO fast. Feast spreads out their death rates because a meatshield is better than 30hp and no meatshield.
Cathode_Reborn
Good update. Might have to start using Dwayna's Sorrow on an MM hero.
Still not really sure about Feast for the Dead though - small heal, bad recharge. And from what I'm seeing right now, heroes arn't really doing anything amazing with it. Another benefit that I see about Dwayna's Sorrow is since it'll enchant a bunch of your minions, any disenchants a mob might have will be wasted on those minions.
Moloch Vein
I'm a bit leery about bringing only one 25e minion spell with a short recharge on a minion bomber, producing a minion isn't going to contribute very well to the decoys.
Heal Area is pretty expensive, true, but the MB will at least use it while standing still with me looking on the map figuring out where to go next. It does tend to maintain the decoys some. Also, he's gaining 3e per cast of ABM, while he loses 6e per cast of AVH and 16e per cast of ABF. I'm not too sure about Taste Of Death/FFtD. I'll have to get home to actually try these options. Olias will spam the hell out of Death Nova. This is an annoyance, but Death Nova is so good... 105 armor ignoring damage and poisoning. Without it, the MB has no dmg output... just short-lived decoys (alright, they'll trigger Barbs some.) Still, this is a problem. This is one of my main reasons why I don't like Mind Blast all that much, either on hero or on human.
distilledwill
This is what Im using atm:
[Build prof=N/Mo Name="Jagged Dwayna" box SoulReaping=8+1 HealingPrayers=10 DeathMagic=12+1+3][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood Of The Master][Dwayna's Sorrow][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build] I much prefer BotM over Feast as it doesnt require my MM to kill something to heal the rest, which I feel is a little counter productive when you could have a spell which heals ALL minions for MORE and has a shorter recharge time. Death Nova is almost always disabled on him, I only reable it when entering a large battle. The DPS from minions + barbs is usually more than enough to kill most foes anyway. Infuse + FF allows me to take some condition removal from my other heroes and replace it when more powerful damage spells ([[Mend Body And Soul] from my N/Rt replaced with [[Ancestors' Rage]) Definately take a +20% enchant weapon, helps with the spammage. Turbobusa
Erm feast kills a minion, but with JB, you also create one. You basically trigger death nova, create a jagged horror, and heal the rest, for free. Ho and you trigger soul reaping.
I agree that the heroes won't use it on a JB'd minion, but you can be sure it'll have death nova on, meaning stuff will die. You can always micromanage JB in between battles. I don't see why you would want to disable death nova since the whole build is designed around this single skill.
distilledwill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
Erm feast kills a minion, but with JB, you also create one. You basically trigger death nova, create a jagged horror, and heal the rest, for free. Ho and you trigger soul reaping.
I agree that the heroes won't use it on a JB'd minion, but you can be sure it'll have death nova on, meaning stuff will die. You can always micromanage JB in between battles. I don't see why you would want to disable death nova since the whole build is designed around this single skill. I disable DN between fights so that Olias can keep up, I often neglect to reactivate it when theres only 1/2 enemies as it seems a waste of energy (for both Olias and me!). However, as Ive mentioned, when anything more than a simple skirmish crops up, I always re-enable it. Yes, I do see the logic of using Feast, it makes sense to pop a few minions to kill the enemies, and if I could take both, itd be quite nice to have Feast disabled and force cast it to pop a minion everysoften. Nevertheless BotM, I feel, is a better all round spell. It works between battles with no micro management (no need to make sure he casts it on a JB'd minion to ensure we don't lose a minion), heals for more (122 rather than 106 at 16DM) and has a shorter recharge (2 rather than 10). Chthon
WTH? My post got eaten.... Grrr...
XDeadboltX
I think Ill only run this in normal mode. In hard mode [protective spirit] and [aegis] are better to have on the necro
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by XDeadboltX
I think Ill only run this in normal mode. In hard mode [protective spirit] and [aegis] are better to have on the necro
I'm going to try very hard not to laugh or cry here. The prot doesn't go on the MB in Sabway because it's a good place for prot. (It's a terrible place -- you can't spec very high and the skills have ZERO synergy with the rest of the bar.) The prot goes on the MB because you need to have prot and there's no place else to put it given what the other two builds are. There's never a reason to cram half-assed prot onto a MB hero when you have more than 4 spaces in your party. In fact, even for 4-man areas, I'm *this* close to declaring Sabway "dead," because recent updates allow the MB to take over the party healing and condition removal roles from the healer, which makes Mo/X or N/Mo heal/prot hybrids look more and more attractive for that slot.
---------------- On to some build testing: [Build prof=N/Mo SoulReaping=10+1 HealingPrayers=8 DeathMagic=12+1+3][Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Bone Minions][Taste of Death][Resurrection Chant][/build] and [Build prof=N/Mo SoulReaping=10+1 HealingPrayers=8 DeathMagic=12+1+3][Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Bone Minions][Feast for the Dead][Resurrection Chant][/build] both work fine. On Carinae's suggestion, I tried swapping to heavier minions. Tried [Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Animate Vampiric Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Dwayna's Sorrow][Feast For The Dead][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition]. It didn't work. It just wasn't able to get the minions up and running. It usually hovered around 5 and never reached 10. So then I tried [Build prof=N/Mo SoulReaping=9+1 HealingPrayers=9 DeathMagic=12+1+3][Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Shambling Horror][animate bone fiend][Feast for the Dead][/build]. That worked, very nicely even (see below), but he did get targeted and spiked more than I would like. So I moved to [Build prof=N/Mo SoulReaping=9+1 HealingPrayers=9 DeathMagic=12+1+3][Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Animate Shambling Horror][animate bone fiend][Taste of Death][/build] and I was quite happy with the results. At least for now I'm going to be satisfied with this as a hero MB build. Couple of notes: 1. Seems the AI will use FftD on bone minions quite a lot, but it really doesn't like to cast it on fiends/shamblings/jaggies, even if the whole army is degen-ing out and dying because FftD isn't getting cast. That makes FftD really only appealing on bone-minion-based builds for me. 2. I've been running a variant on Moloch's AP-MoP Bomber for vanquishing recently, and, at least in combination with that build, bone fiends are definitely worth the trouble. They offer a pretty noticeable increase in damage over bone minions, provide a couple of decoys for melee monsters that rush your backline, and, best of all, trigger Barbs/MoP like crazy.
distilledwill
With the above post in mind, Im going to try out this hero setup for a while:
[Cursing Channeler;OAhjYgHsoO5BhmdoMs7wYV1kLA] [Dwayna's MB;OANDUshtSLVVB4BoBGNLCJgVVA] [Icy Prot;OANCY8zTNDqJQqHBkXXVdnA] The final build is very very much a work in progress, I was thinking a blood/prot hybrid, but I was struggling to find blood skills that were worth the investment. Similarly, I was thinking about a second Curser to fit MoP in there, but again I was loathed to substitute more damage in for a bit less protection. Edit: Hell, I did it. I forced MoP and Weaken Armour into the build: [Cursing Prot;OANDY5xfO1MLxnAqFQedV1dC] I actually have a +1+1 SR headpiece, so Icy Veins is significantly more powerful than the build above suggests. why not? Turbobusa
Icy veins does very mediocre damage if used on foes >lvl20.
Extinguish...if you encounter desease maybe but otherwise the JBer will get rid of conditions, even if he's busy most of the time that shouldn't be that much of a problem. I'd stick with a n/rt healer with either WoD (disabled) or WoR.
Cathode_Reborn
Icy Veins basically is just a really weak SF. Hardly worth the elite slot in pve. I was usin an N/Mo prot for HM and I usually had him using Shield of regeneration - no hero monk can spam it without some hefty e-management but necs don't have that problem. Like turbobusa it does pretty bad damage at when you start fightin lvl20+ enemies.
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