Ok so i'm new to playing an assassin and I have a pretty newb question. I have looked through some builds and I am intrigued by the MS/DB build but I don't see a lead attack listed. Moebius says it is an off hand attack that follows a dual attack and Death Blossom says it is a dual attack that follows an off hand attack. So how do you get the chain started without a lead attack? I thought that the chain had to go ---- Lead-Off Hand-Dual?
Mac
No Lead Attack?
Mac Sidewinder
Kyomi Tachibana
Lead[Golden Fox Strike]-Offhand[Wild Strike]-Dual[Death Blossom]-Offhand[Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
Or while Enchanted - Offhand[Golden Phoenix Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom]-> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
On a hexed foe - Offhand[Black Spider Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
On a KD'd foe - Offhand[Falling Spider]-> Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
Edit: Like Mist says below, [Critical Agility] is hands down the best IAS to use as a PvE sin, I don't use [Critical Defenses] as I don't find myself needing that often, but it's still good defense against some of the harder hitting melee mobs out there.
Or while Enchanted - Offhand[Golden Phoenix Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom]-> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
On a hexed foe - Offhand[Black Spider Strike]->Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
On a KD'd foe - Offhand[Falling Spider]-> Dual[Death Blossom] -> Offhand [Moebius Strike]->[Death Blossom]->[Moebius Strike]
Edit: Like Mist says below, [Critical Agility] is hands down the best IAS to use as a PvE sin, I don't use [Critical Defenses] as I don't find myself needing that often, but it's still good defense against some of the harder hitting melee mobs out there.
Mist Walker Skarloc
MS+DB aren't the only skills in the build. You open with whatever you want, I like [Golden Fox strike] and [Wild Strike] because they both have short recharges and are unblockable. Then you go ahead spamming [Death Blossom] and [Moebius strike] repeatedly.
Remember to take [Critical Defense] and [Critical Agility], 'cause you'd be an idiot to pass up on a permanent (unless you get very unlucky) 75% block chance, +20-30ish armour and 33% IAS. Even if you don't take Critical Defense, ALWAYS take Agility.
Remember to take [Critical Defense] and [Critical Agility], 'cause you'd be an idiot to pass up on a permanent (unless you get very unlucky) 75% block chance, +20-30ish armour and 33% IAS. Even if you don't take Critical Defense, ALWAYS take Agility.
Luminarus
[Falling Lotus Strike] works on KD'd foes instead of [Falling Spider Strike]
But yeah, use one of the offhands that skip a lead, or use [Golden Fox Strike] + [Wild Strike]
But yeah, use one of the offhands that skip a lead, or use [Golden Fox Strike] + [Wild Strike]
miskav
It's not required to follow the chain like that, because certain attacks skip a link, or have to follow-up another link.
Just read some skills and you'll get my point.
Just read some skills and you'll get my point.
Zahr Dalsk
Lead attack like Leaping Mantis Sting, followed by Exhausting Assault, the Moebius Strike.
Kaleban
Don't forget, if running a build with Deadly Arts that there are several skills like Iron Palm or Mantis Touch that count as a link in the lead-offhand-dual chain, and can add in some real variability and versatility to any sin build.
But every skill says what it requires or follows, such as [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill], which will hit an opponent ONLY if you the sin are enchanted. But it does not require a lead, and for the longest time was the preferred opener of AoD sins.
But every skill says what it requires or follows, such as [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill], which will hit an opponent ONLY if you the sin are enchanted. But it does not require a lead, and for the longest time was the preferred opener of AoD sins.
Mac Sidewinder
Thx everybody. So I guess if you qualify (ie are enchanted, etc) then you don't have to have a lead attack, the off hand will still hit. But I guess its still wise to have a lead attack so that if for some reason you don't qualify (get enchantments stripped, etc) then you can still open with your skills? Seems to me that there are quite a few enchantment stripping foes out there.
Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.
Thx for the help
Mac
Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.
Thx for the help
Mac
Tyla
Minors and Survivors.
If your build is out of energy, it needs more energy management and not energy, in all reality.
And lead skips won't trigger by lead.
If your build is out of energy, it needs more energy management and not energy, in all reality.
And lead skips won't trigger by lead.
FengShuiDove
P.S. One more fine tuning point, you could also OFFHAND skip with that build by slapping [Exhausting Assault] in your build after [Golden Fox Strike]. That gives you fast and spammable interrupts on important casters like Ele and Monk bosses especially in HM.
Just a thought for some time you might need it =).
P.P.S. I keep Zealous Daggers around and swap if my target doesn't die before my MS+DB starts running out of energy.
Just a thought for some time you might need it =).
P.P.S. I keep Zealous Daggers around and swap if my target doesn't die before my MS+DB starts running out of energy.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder
Thx everybody. So I guess if you qualify (ie are enchanted, etc) then you don't have to have a lead attack, the off hand will still hit. But I guess its still wise to have a lead attack so that if for some reason you don't qualify (get enchantments stripped, etc) then you can still open with your skills? Seems to me that there are quite a few enchantment stripping foes out there.
Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.
Thx for the help
Mac There are a variety of skills that skip leads or require certain conditions to be met. I used to run builds that avoided leads like the plague, but have since gotten back into it. Why? Because to have a solid chain that can be used under any circumstances is better imho than a fragile chain that means you sit around auto-attacking for twenty seconds. Also, I hate blocking stances, so I usually do something like:
[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill]*Insert Dual Attack*[skill]Impale[/skill]
Depending on the dual attack, you have an attack chain who's only counter is blind/blurred vision, and most people/mobs don't use blurred vision. Good dual attacks are:
[skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] - Note it being unblockable
[skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - Especially good if using [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] as well
[skill]Vampiric Assault[/skill] - armor ignoring life steal
[skill]Blades of Steel[/skill] - my personal favorite, simply for the animation
[skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill] or [skill]Trampling Ox[/skill] - for the knockdown
A fun combo to use in PvP against spamming casters (making sure you're not blinded or can bypass block somehow, such as [skill]Rigor Mortis[/skill]) is to use:
[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill][skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - give three interrupts plus exhaustion very quickly on casters, then allows you to do some serious damage, possibly getting Moebius' conditional recharge after one or two combos, at which point you can chain interrupts. Will shut down a caster very quickly, although if energy becomes an issue, sub in [skill]Critical Strike[/skill] for DB.
As for the preferred insignias and such, I almost always run full radiants, a superior attribute rune for whichever I'm speccing in (usually Dagger or Deadly), a Superior Vigor, minor Critical Strikes, a Rune of Clarity and one Rune of Attunement, giving me 35 energy base. I also usually use Zealous Daggers as my main, switching to Vampiric for spiking and Ebon vs. Warriors. My Ebon set is +5 energy with an enchant 20% mod on it. My attributes usually look like 16 DM, 13 CS, and 3 DA, with some variation depending on daggers, secondary, and overall build (such as a DA spike caster). Some people recommend only using minor runes to conserve health, the way I look at is I want to kill as quickly as possible, and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for. Especially considering the already massive damage that can be caused by elementalists and other high damage classes, its better to depend on a skill set rather than a small life buffer, IMHO.
Also what seems to be the perferred insignias and runes. I take it most people run minors to avoid the hp loss? I'm wondering if the regular 25 points for energy suffice or do you usually pump it up a bit with radiants? I know there are a few energy regaining skills but most of them seem to only grant energy off a critical hit so they seem a little iffy to me to depend upon for needed energy.
Thx for the help
Mac There are a variety of skills that skip leads or require certain conditions to be met. I used to run builds that avoided leads like the plague, but have since gotten back into it. Why? Because to have a solid chain that can be used under any circumstances is better imho than a fragile chain that means you sit around auto-attacking for twenty seconds. Also, I hate blocking stances, so I usually do something like:
[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill]*Insert Dual Attack*[skill]Impale[/skill]
Depending on the dual attack, you have an attack chain who's only counter is blind/blurred vision, and most people/mobs don't use blurred vision. Good dual attacks are:
[skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] - Note it being unblockable
[skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - Especially good if using [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] as well
[skill]Vampiric Assault[/skill] - armor ignoring life steal
[skill]Blades of Steel[/skill] - my personal favorite, simply for the animation
[skill]Horns of the Ox[/skill] or [skill]Trampling Ox[/skill] - for the knockdown
A fun combo to use in PvP against spamming casters (making sure you're not blinded or can bypass block somehow, such as [skill]Rigor Mortis[/skill]) is to use:
[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill][skill]Exhausting Assault[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] - give three interrupts plus exhaustion very quickly on casters, then allows you to do some serious damage, possibly getting Moebius' conditional recharge after one or two combos, at which point you can chain interrupts. Will shut down a caster very quickly, although if energy becomes an issue, sub in [skill]Critical Strike[/skill] for DB.
As for the preferred insignias and such, I almost always run full radiants, a superior attribute rune for whichever I'm speccing in (usually Dagger or Deadly), a Superior Vigor, minor Critical Strikes, a Rune of Clarity and one Rune of Attunement, giving me 35 energy base. I also usually use Zealous Daggers as my main, switching to Vampiric for spiking and Ebon vs. Warriors. My Ebon set is +5 energy with an enchant 20% mod on it. My attributes usually look like 16 DM, 13 CS, and 3 DA, with some variation depending on daggers, secondary, and overall build (such as a DA spike caster). Some people recommend only using minor runes to conserve health, the way I look at is I want to kill as quickly as possible, and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for. Especially considering the already massive damage that can be caused by elementalists and other high damage classes, its better to depend on a skill set rather than a small life buffer, IMHO.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for
Do your monks agree with your views?
moriz
i know i don't
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Do your monks agree with your views?
Most of the time, yes. The secret to playing a good sin is not trying to play a 600 smite monk in flash armor, its killing your opponent so quickly that they cannot do damage back, as well as proper positioning and knowing how and when to aggro.
I'd say 95% of my death count was from doing Raisu chest runs back when they were profitable.
In most cases, a competent monk casts [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] on my sin to protect against elemental spiking, and I usually hit Critical Defenses before charging in. Nearly impervious to melee, and spell spikes are kept to 48 damage per hit, which any good monk can heal through.
My first character was a monk, and I can tell you that the biggest problem with any melee class is the tendency to charge in without regard for protection or defense, the sin's shadowstepping can exacerbate the problem. However, a sin is no different from an overextending whammo or overconfident dervish. The sin however has several skills to make escaping a bad situation easier, the whammo and dervish do not (unless secondary assassin).
Most of the people in my guild and alliance really enjoy playing with me when I'm on my sin, because I kill fast and don't over-aggro. I usually run with anywhere from 455 to 485 life, and have no problems in any group, whether H/H, PUG or guild-play. You just have to adjust your build based on your teammates' capabilities, like any other profession.
I'd say 95% of my death count was from doing Raisu chest runs back when they were profitable.
In most cases, a competent monk casts [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] on my sin to protect against elemental spiking, and I usually hit Critical Defenses before charging in. Nearly impervious to melee, and spell spikes are kept to 48 damage per hit, which any good monk can heal through.
My first character was a monk, and I can tell you that the biggest problem with any melee class is the tendency to charge in without regard for protection or defense, the sin's shadowstepping can exacerbate the problem. However, a sin is no different from an overextending whammo or overconfident dervish. The sin however has several skills to make escaping a bad situation easier, the whammo and dervish do not (unless secondary assassin).
Most of the people in my guild and alliance really enjoy playing with me when I'm on my sin, because I kill fast and don't over-aggro. I usually run with anywhere from 455 to 485 life, and have no problems in any group, whether H/H, PUG or guild-play. You just have to adjust your build based on your teammates' capabilities, like any other profession.
moriz
what you described only works in pve and lower level arenas. as soon as you face competent opponents, your low hp will come back to bite you very hard. the few extra damage you're doing will be miniscule compared to the punishment your opponents are doing upon your mom's energy pool. as soon as your opponents realize you have low hp, they'll burn every enchant strip on you as soon as prot spirit goes up, forcing your monk to spend 10e after 10e, or watch you blow up.
playing smartly, also, does not work against competent opponents. why? because they will be too. unfortunately for assassins, they can't do a whole lot outside of their combo. so in the time between you can spike, the least you can do is to not be a detriment to your team. having a low HP total will definately do that.
playing smartly, also, does not work against competent opponents. why? because they will be too. unfortunately for assassins, they can't do a whole lot outside of their combo. so in the time between you can spike, the least you can do is to not be a detriment to your team. having a low HP total will definately do that.
Kaleban
So for the warrior who chases down the sin and is smacking him around for 60+ damage a hit, what does the monk do then? A difference of 30 health is not going to amount to much will it?
Putting in an extra double attack because of high energy with maxed out dagger mastery and critical strikes can easily hit 120+ damage, more on caster squishies. If the monk is burning energy to protect a sin who's trying to duke it out with a Shock whammo or bunny thumper ranger, then neither player is doing their job right obviously.
The only sins who run dagger builds with minor runes, at least in my experience are simply not pumping out enough damage to do what they're supposed to do, i.e. kill quickly. Sins in PvP who build too defensively are doing two things wrong instead of one:
1. They don't have enough defensive skills to actually play a successful defense AND
2. They hamper their primary ability to deal out damage and kill targets.
Besides, your logic applies to ANY character who gets focus fired by an enemy team, most people assume a sin's low armor is the reason for damage, not a slightly lower hp pool. If you're telling me you can tell the numerical value of a sin's health by watching how fast it drops, when the difference is only 30 health, I won't believe you. If the sin has 300 health, that's a different story altogether.
Putting in an extra double attack because of high energy with maxed out dagger mastery and critical strikes can easily hit 120+ damage, more on caster squishies. If the monk is burning energy to protect a sin who's trying to duke it out with a Shock whammo or bunny thumper ranger, then neither player is doing their job right obviously.
The only sins who run dagger builds with minor runes, at least in my experience are simply not pumping out enough damage to do what they're supposed to do, i.e. kill quickly. Sins in PvP who build too defensively are doing two things wrong instead of one:
1. They don't have enough defensive skills to actually play a successful defense AND
2. They hamper their primary ability to deal out damage and kill targets.
Besides, your logic applies to ANY character who gets focus fired by an enemy team, most people assume a sin's low armor is the reason for damage, not a slightly lower hp pool. If you're telling me you can tell the numerical value of a sin's health by watching how fast it drops, when the difference is only 30 health, I won't believe you. If the sin has 300 health, that's a different story altogether.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for
Yay math.
More health is good, what has that got to do with Ursan?Quote:
Quote:|
Originally Posted by Kaleban
Sins in PvP who build too defensively are doing two things wrong instead of one:
1. They don't have enough defensive skills to actually play a successful defense AND 2. They hamper their primary ability to deal out damage and kill targets. 1. On the contrary: one would expect such players to have too many defensive skills. 2. This an argument against minor runes? Live moar = kill moar
moriz
the difference between 16 dagger and 14 dagger is miniscule, about 2 more damage per hit wit autoattacks. a tiny bit more with dagger skills. if you factor in the additional 4% extra critical hits.... that's still very little damage difference.
on the other hand, the difference between 560hp and 485hp is huge. that's the equivalent of running around with about 8% death penalty at all times, with very marginal gains on damage. congrats, your spike on a SP sin now deals 590 damage instead of 580, and you are now much more vulnerable to sudden bursts of damage in return. purposely lowering your health total, for such tiny gains, equals stupidity. why do you think the shove assassins, mo/a smiters, sig of toxic shock builds, etc work so well in AB? that's because most of the people there run around with 460hp. each one of those builds just happen to deal 450 to 470 damage, just enough to kill those idiots.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
why do you think the shove assassins, mo/a smiters, sig of toxic shock builds, etc work so well in AB? that's because most of the people there run around with 460hp. each one of those builds just happen to deal 450 to 470 damage, just enough to kill those idiots.
Or could it be that Alliance Battles are not exactly organized PvP, and any tard with a Factions account linked can jump into a game, regardless of build, skill-level or gear?
Nah, it must be a 30hp total difference. In point of fact, I rarely see one single person in AB JUST barely killing character after character, its usually four to 12 people who gang up on one person, then move on to the next. Which is why the score is usually 500 to 50 in most battles. You can believe what you want, and call everyone who does not agree with your opinion an idiot, I'll reserve the right to play as I want, and since I have fun and am pretty effective with 485 hp, I don't consider myself an idiot, tyvm. Again, if your vision is so acute that you can tell all these differences while playing your monk and healing 11 other people at the same time, then I bow to your superior skills. If on the other hand, you are simply just making uninformed assumptions, as I suspect, then perhaps you should cut people some slack. 30 hitpoints is not enough of a buffer in most battles, and your example of AB is foolish because of the amount of people and damage, as well as the random and chaotic nature. Some teams don't even have a monk, you might take that into consideration as well. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
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Originally Posted by moriz
just enough to kill those idiots.
He said the word "Idiots". Comparable to "Tard" if I'm right with what you're saying.
All you did there is just expand on his point while agreeing. Less health can work in AB, PvE and RA, but anywhere else? Out of luck, buddy. Well, unless you come against a bad TA / HA / GvG team...
Kaleban
Sorry, but it sounds to me like the health boost from Ursan is spilling over into your guys' brains lol.
Look, it works for me. I kill things faster than most sins, therefore eliminating potential sources of incoming damage, period. If you want your sins to walk around with 600 hp, not killing things, not spiking, and not doing their jobs, well that's fine. I'll stick to having slightly lower health and eliminating targets one after another in rapid succession due to having maximized damage output. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
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Quote:
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Look, it works for me. I kill things faster than most sins, therefore eliminating potential sources of incoming damage, period. If you want your sins to walk around with 600 hp, not killing things, not spiking, and not doing their jobs, well that's fine. I'll stick to having slightly lower health and eliminating targets one after another in rapid succession due to having maximized damage output.
Yeah I know because when you run around jumping into mobs of even 4 by shadowstepping, jumping back in 2 seconds when they all die, I guess you're good. Until then? The damage you miss because of not using superior runes is marginal. It is NOT, read: NOT worth the -75 health loss. 75 health is ALOT of health.
moriz
so you're claiming that by doing approximate 10 less damage on spikes, my sin will never get a kill? that characters with 560+hp can only score kills if they get multiple players to jump the same target? if you're claiming that you're not an idiot, your statements seem to prove otherwise.
Kaleban
You guys are welcome to your opinions, although the continued insinuation that I'm an idiot is not helping your case most likely.
You bring up AB. In AB, how many times are there 12 instances of 1v1 duels? Not often. Tyla, I'm not talking only about PvE mobs, where a Critical Defense Moebius-DBer can blow them away, with a four or five skill attack chain which includes two dual attacks, the difference is larger than you think. Moriz, I'm sure if you do the calculation you'll find the difference to be considerably more than 10 damage in a 5 skill chain. Skewing the numbers to back yourself is a fallacy of argumentation and improper use of statistical analysis. I'm not going to bother with you two anymore, because your opinions are obviously set and you are hostile to counter opinions. Back on topic, if you two notice, the OP asked what are a person's preferred runes and insignias. I answered him what mine were, and you two jumped me, instead of providing a reasoned counter opinion(s). Also, as he sounds inexperienced with the assassin, its probable that hardcore PvP will not be his first foray into the class. In any case Mac, good luck with the class, and don't be afraid to experiment, the sin in my opinion is one of the most capable classes in the game, and can do a varied amount of roles from farming, to running, to obliterating everything in its path with minimal downtime. Tyla
What did my post have to do with PvE?
PvE mobs most of the time have more or less than 4 enemies in them. And if you can give me a reason why blowing your health for a little more damage is good, give it now. And AB isn't "Hardcore PvP". If you, or anyone thinks it is, I will lol. Epicly. And by the way, Bobby "jumped" you.
Bobby2
I'll take responsibility fo any jumping.
Originally Posted by Kaleban
Quit the nonsense with your '30HP difference' talk. This'll be the third time I use this damn quote: Quote: and the difference between 480 life and 550 life is not so great that an extra critical on a couple dual attacks won't make up for
On Topic (because it wasn't about Runez anyway):
- in PvE [skill]golden phoenix strike[/skill] is the mostly used 'shortcut', no Dagger Sin would leave out [skill]critical agility[/skill]. Do realize it HAS to be up or GPS will miss - this becomes an issue in higher levels of play, when exnchant strips become more common. - in PvP, all irregular attacks have been popular at some time. Mac Sidewinder
My questions are strictly for pve since I don't care for pvp. If we look at it in that light, what difference are we talking about between taking a sup rune for dagger mastery, using a sup vigor to help compensate, in both damage and health? I could see how having more "firepower" using a sup rune would help but I don't want to be gimping myself in the health dept to the point that I am over taxing the monks to heal me. If the difference isn't that great then more health would be more beneficial.
I realize I could test this out myself but seeing how I already have bought my armor I don't want to have to buy a perfect salvage kit to remove an incorrect rune or insignia. Also I'm interested to see the different viewpoints from experienced players and how they work for them. Also I run with zealous daggers and was wondering if there is enough space on the skill bar to be able to have good damage AND energy management at the same time? I would rather run survivor insignias instead of radiant if possible but I don't want to have to be waiting on energy all the time. Please keep the flames and insults to a minimum. I was just wanting to know all the pros and cons of the different playstyles. Thx
moriz
well, if you want to look at whether a superior dagger rune is truly worth the cost of -75hp, here's a few things to consider:
-first, a superior vigor rune should never be thought of as "compensating" for health lost. a character with a superior vigor, but also a superior dagger, will always have -75hp compared to a character with superior vigor but no superior dagger. since with superior vigor prices dropping to acceptable levels, having a superior vigor is now standard for most people. -now, let's take a look at the effects of going from 14 dagger to 16 dagger: average damage without attack skills: goes from ~14 damage/hit, to ~15.5 damage/hit death blossom damage: [[death [email protected]] vs [[death [email protected]] so on average, you'll get 1.5 more damage per hit on auto attacks, and 8 (4 x 2) extra damage per death blossom. that totals to 11 extra damage per death blossom if count everything together. is it worth the cost of -75hp? you be the judge.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
I'll take responsibility fo any jumping.
Quit the nonsense with your '30HP difference' talk It isn't nonsense. The quote with the difference of 70 life is obviously right around what a superior rune would take away, duh. Some people... Mac, I run around with 485 life on most builds, with a superior attribute rune. I can Vanquish and do HM missions easily enough with the build, and without making use of skills like [skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill] or [skill]"Save Yourselves!"[/skill]. Contrary to what some people's opinions are, there are multiple ways to play the game, and your setup may work better for you than someone else. You really won't need to worry about perfect salvaging the armor, sin runes are so cheap that its a simple matter to just overwrite the current rune to test a build. Or make a pvp sin and test its capabilities on the target dummies in the practice PvP area. I always run zealous, yet sometimes its not enough for expensive attack chains, even with a 13 critical strikes and critical eye. But that's usually high damage spike builds, Moebius-DB chain type builds are not usually too energy intensive, given the occasional critical hit. I didn't see what campaigns you have, but if you have them all, most likely one of the first elites you'll cap as a sin is [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]. I've used this build to great effect when not running any of the other Moebius or Shatter builds that I usually run: OwBk0xe6nMi0CEBIA0w3BDZG/TNI Try it sometime, it can pretty much kill anything straight out in NM, and with a little help in HM. Of course, it also uses 16 DM and 13 CS, and apparently that's a nono, but my guildmates enjoy seeing things explode left and right, and with Shadow Fang's shadowstepping and deep wound, its quite a fun build. Also has great e-management too... 
Mac Sidewinder
Yes I have all campaigns and EOTN so acquiring skills is no problem. I still haven't made up my mind concerning the value of sup runes so I guess I'll just try both ways and see which one I am more comfortable with.
I have beat all the campaigns and EOTN with a couple different characters and never really looked at the sin much till now. My interest was waining with GW as a whole untill i created one and started playing around with him. It's a pretty amazing character.
moriz
last time i checked, 30hp != 75hp. just so you know.
and yes, pve sins are amazingly hilarious to play now. before i scoffed at the idea that a sin can out-DPS a warrior, until i made my moebius sin. she can dish out a constant 85-90 DPS with aoe attached at 14 dagger mastery. while it's true that my warrior CAN out DPS my sin if i play absolutely perfectly, my sin can deal more damage with me not trying nearly as hard.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder
Yes I have all campaigns and EOTN so acquiring skills is no problem. I still haven't made up my mind concerning the value of sup runes so I guess I'll just try both ways and see which one I am more comfortable with.
I have beat all the campaigns and EOTN with a couple different characters and never really looked at the sin much till now. My interest was waining with GW as a whole untill i created one and started playing around with him. It's a pretty amazing character. Oh absolutely, I was the same. Although you'll see narutards all over the place (I even dyed a set of shing jea armor bright orange lol), the versatility and sheer killing power of a sin made him my instant fave character. The rune thing is a sticky issue obviously, people feel strongly about it on both sides. My recommendation stands, but I would suggest when first starting with the profession to use minor runes to conserve health, then as you get comfortable with the play style and skill setups and such that you can move to major and superior, since they're so cheap. I guess my logic is that if I'm going to stick someone with a 5 skill attack chain, and it hits, I want to eke out as much damage as possible and then escape, as a sin is not designed to sit in toe to toe combat like warriors or even rangers. You CAN play tank-sins, but in those situations you usually rely on either Monk Protection Prayers or Dervish Earth enchantments, and there are enough defensive skills to allow any profession to tank, heck I've even had melee necros and rits in the past too! Oh last thing, and again it deals with health. What moriz and the others failed to realize I think was that I was discussing two health mods simultaneously, the -75 from sups along with the +30 from weapons. Especially in PvE, the AI targets lowest health first priority, and then lowest armor next, and I think ANet has modified it a bit to prioritize healing classes as well. If you end up H/H a lot (likely since most people are in EoTN and NF, Factions might be kind of bare lol), then having over 480 life is a good idea, especially if you kit out your heroes well. With a +30 handle and a sup vig, you'll have +80 life, with a sup dag rune and the -75, you'll end up with a total of 485. If you run enchant lengthening mods (nice for critical defenses and such) then it might be a good idea to stick to major or even minor runes, especially if you can't afford a sup vig. But don't forget survivor insignias and vitae runes as well. Something else to consider is that you get +3 and +1 from a sup and minor with -75 health, but -70 health with two majors and +2/+2. Running dual majors is an option, especially considering that it will allow you to splash much more easily into another attribute line or secondary profession and still be very effective. But aggregating damage over time, especially with critical strikes being improved by both dagger mastery and critical strikes attributes, as well as double striking chance, not to mention the extra damage on dual attacks and all the conditional benefits many skills get, I personally prefer to max it out. I'm sure you'll find the right balance for yourself as well. Good hunting! Mac Sidewinder
Thx for the help Kaleban. I'm off to sin, uh play with my sin, uh play my sin. You know what I mean.
Mac
Shaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Sidewinder
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There is no such thing as 'covering for the sup'. Every character starts with 670 HP. Everything else is a tradeoff against that.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83
Bobby2
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Quoted for mother-effing truth
What does your Sin gain by having >100 less HP than mine?
- 4 more damage per Blossom
- a bad reputation with good monks
gg
I too like Ensign's post, he makes some excellent points.
What does my sin gain by having a higher dagger mastery? More critical strikes, which means better energy management, more double strikes, increasing virtual IAS, more raw damage, meaning quicker and more efficient kills, etc., etc.
You get a bad rep with good monks by trying to tank Afflicted or elementalist bosses, not by having low hitpoints with 75% chance to block vs. melee. Also, I gain more versatility in the Dagger Mastery line, so you know, when NOT solely using Moebius+DB, which seems to be the only acceptable thing these days. My sin gets along quite well without it, even while vanquishing in HM.
As I've said, your opinion, and even the entire forum is not fact, simply opinion bolstered by those of like mind. Doesn't mean the other million people out there agree with you. I'm just trying to provide alternative ideas and options for people who aren't locked into a specific playstyle or methodology.
What does your Sin gain by having >100 less HP than mine?
- 4 more damage per Blossom
- a bad reputation with good monks
gg
I too like Ensign's post, he makes some excellent points.What does my sin gain by having a higher dagger mastery? More critical strikes, which means better energy management, more double strikes, increasing virtual IAS, more raw damage, meaning quicker and more efficient kills, etc., etc.
You get a bad rep with good monks by trying to tank Afflicted or elementalist bosses, not by having low hitpoints with 75% chance to block vs. melee. Also, I gain more versatility in the Dagger Mastery line, so you know, when NOT solely using Moebius+DB, which seems to be the only acceptable thing these days. My sin gets along quite well without it, even while vanquishing in HM.
As I've said, your opinion, and even the entire forum is not fact, simply opinion bolstered by those of like mind. Doesn't mean the other million people out there agree with you. I'm just trying to provide alternative ideas and options for people who aren't locked into a specific playstyle or methodology.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleban
/snip
If that's supposed to be the answer to my question, thx4tehlulz.
In response: OK
In response: OK