Eight gods, not six?

I've been reading the Lore sections on GW Wiki and found the following:-

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tyria_%28world%29

The first section states that Abaddon defeated two of the gods, but was in turn defeated by the combined power of the other five. We know that the five were Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa and Melandru. So who were the other two?

They are unlikely to be Dhuum and Menzies, as both of these are explicitly stated as working with Abaddon in other lore sections. I find it unlikely that they would work with Abaddon if they were defeated by him previously, gods being capricious and all. Plus of course, Dhuum was supplanted by Grenth and would ally with Abaddon against the other gods (or Grenth at least). Menzies is never specifically referred to as a god, according to Wiki, so I discount him too.

Also unlikely to be the Titans, despite them being referred to as Charr gods, as we know them to be servants of Abaddon.

Also unlikely to be the Great Destroyer, as he is a minion of Primordus. Having said that, it's also unlikely to be the Dragons themselves, as there are more than two of them buried out there in Tyria.

Naturally we can also discount Kormir, who replaces Abaddon, and the unnamed predecessor of Abaddon.

Anyone have any clues as to the identity of these missing two gods?

[Apologies if this question has been posted before. Searched Lore but found nothing].

plus the dragons are servants of the gods I thought

But they're not very nice, are they? They do turn Norn into Nornbears and command the destroyers to eradicate all life on Tyria, after all.

Maybe you're right, I don't know a huge deal about the dragons, but it seems odd the gods would let their servants do what the dragons do (and we'll most likely end up fighting them in GW2).

shouldnt the title be "Seven gods not Five?"

I'm counting Abaddon as the sixth god, a reference made often in Nightfall.

Ah yes, I forgot about Abaddon.
As for the missing gods. Maybe the great dwarf was one of them? I forgot about the others.

Wasn't there mention before of an unused storyline regarding a spider god?

Im not sure about the great dwarf being one, Droknar was the great dwarf if im not mistaken and i always assumed that he was just a king and nevet a god.

I'd considered that and it might be plausible given the events of the Eye of the North storyline. When Jalis Ironhammer uses the Hammer of the Great Dwarf to transform the Deldrimor Dwarves, he uses the phrase "We are all the Great Dwarf now". Given that the Hammer has lain dormant in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks for some time prior to its liberation by the players, maybe the Great Dwarf WAS one of the gods defeated by Abaddon, and the Hammer is one of the few relics (perhaps along with the Tome of Rubicon) left of him.

Not something I've heard of. Care to post a link or some details?

Dwanya, Melandru, Lyssa, Balthazar, Grenth... and...

The Great Dwarf is a god, right?
The Goddess of Truth has the name goddess...
Titans are considered gods, right?

You might have missed the point. The link I posted speaks of two gods defeated by Abaddon BEFORE the five gods cast him into Torment.

The Goddess of Truth clearly can't be one of the missing two gods, as she didn't exist until Abaddon was destroyed/dethroned.

I've also discounted Titans, as they are servants of Abaddon, despite the Charr worshipping them as gods at one point. Clearly they are not gods, as the players defeat them in Hells Precipice and the Titan Quests.

As I mentioned before, the Great Dwarf has merit in possibly being one of the missing two gods, although there's no direct evidence to back this up.

god of :

- life

- Death

- Chaos/Energy

- Nature

- War/Battle/Fire

Abbadon - Secrets/lies

Kormir - Truth/knowledge

Great Dwarf = God of Stone/Strength (?)

well thats how i break them down.

seeing that even though Kormir replaces Abbadon she does not really replace him.

maybe Tyria needs a god of secrets/lies and will generate one again eventually.


i think there are two BIG missing ones as it stands though.

God of Air, sky, messenger god?

God of Water, Oceans. There HAS to be one.


I dont think Anet really though this through when they created the gods but any civilization that has a god of fire will have one for each of their known elements as well (either combined or separate).

Looking at the concept art of Chapter 4 i think its probable that Anet was going to perhaps introduce us to two more gods of the pantheon.

Sun god. (Aztec inspired)

Time god. (Chronomancer Class)

From GW Wiki:-
Balthazar: God of war and fire
Dwayna: Goddess of life and air
Grenth: God of death and ice, defeated Dhuum to obtain this position
Lyssa: Twin goddess of beauty and illusion.
Melandru: Goddess of nature and earth

So there already is a goddess of Air, and Abaddon himself was god of Water (but Grenth took this particular domain over and became god of Ice/Cold).

Interesting ideas with regards to the cancelled Utopia. Might be possible that the two missing gods were to have been included there, maybe as fallen gods after defeat by Abaddon?

Another interesting snippet from Wiki:-
Abaddon is the former God of Secrets. He used to be among the six Gods of Tyria, as the God of Water and Knowledge. However, he was visited by The Seers of Twilight, who told him how to defeat the other Gods, he failed in his attempt and was banished to the Realm of Torment. He remained the god of secrets during his imprisonment, while Grenth ruled over water as the God of Cold.

Who, or what, are/were the Seers of Twilight? Some sort of group dedicated to the destruction of the gods? Perhaps the Dragons?

What about the god of Earth, Ground, Dust? If you have fire, and suggest water and air, then there must be Earth (elementalist atts).

The sun god might be a good one, cuz all of elona became dark (hence the name nightfall) probably in the beginning. Of course, if the sun god was destroyed then there wouldn't be light now either.

thing is apart from wiki we (well i certainly didnt) get the impression that Dwayna and Abbadon really took their "elemental" responsibilities seriously.

but maybe i missed out on critical text (i doubt it), not that im contesting it...it makes sense but its not forcibly what Anet had in mind (since they left it so vague, IE: they had nothing in mind).

Melandru is no doubt the god of nature. Gaia in RL terms and thus by extension "Earth" but not "Rock" (which Gaia is a part of here).

Its weird, God lore in GW is kinda like they took bits of the colours from MTG and gave them an avatar. Even adding the legendary 6th colour (Abbadon/purple) and at the same time....gave up 1/3 of the way through.

sorry im rambling.


I dont feel that Anet would have gone and given us the 2 gods overthrown by Abbadon spiel for C4. The world and lore of Tyria is sufficiently vague for them to be able to add new stuff whenever they want and just introduce them as " far away other gods looked upon these brave heroes with interest..." etc.

its easy, which is partly or even fully the reason for which lore is soooooo imprecise. so they could just tack on new chapters quickly.

Melandru. He just overlooked that aspect of her portfolio, is all.

The closest thing to air would be Dwayna, she's the goddess of life, warmth AND air.

As for water, Abaddon's the god of secrets/knowledge/magic and water.
By the way, I didn't know Abaddon was the god of lies? Maybe he is, but I always thought he, being the god of secrets, gave truthful knowledge to his followers that he should have kept secret. He did, after all, give mortals magic and he did give them too much which is why the other gods were pissed with him.

youre right but in the end he sure came across as a big fat liar.

I looked around for the source of that lore, and I believe the author of that article just worded it badly. Abaddon defeated two of the five gods, not two other gods.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abaddon
Although Abaddon was strong enough to defeat the joint forces of two gods, he still could not withstand the power of all five gods united.

The original source is the ncsoft taiwan gw website.

Abbadon defeated two of the five gods but was defeated when the other 3 joined in. Its best to read the actual source of the information rather than the wiki. There are only 6 True Gods.

Ok, that kinda owned this whole thread. But still, Abaddon defeated 2 of the 5 gods? What happened to them?

They licked their wounds and came back with the others. Defeated doesn't mean killed. Abaddon was defeated by the Five, but he wasn't actually killed/absorbed until we came along.

Exactly. By defeated it probably means they could not stop him rather than him using some uber powerful spell to destroy them. I'm going to guess the two gods were Melandru and Lyssa - though its just guess. Grenth and Balthazar dont sound like the types to lose a battle easily and Dwayna probably united them for the final battle.

Link to the information if you will. There was no Prima Guide released alongside Nightfall, so where this information is coming from is most intriguing.

First thing I must mention. Abaddon did not kill two gods, he had the strength of two gods. This could mean that he killed 2, one when he was a mortal, and one as a god, but that is never confirmed. The only in-game lore source of Abaddon killing another god was by The Apostate, which never mentions if Abaddon was a god or mortal at the time Abaddon killed his 'predecesor' so it is possible he killed one god and gained the powers of a second god.

Now, I will name all dieties, that are not proven to be false *Mursaat and Titans*.

1. Dwayna
2. Grenth/Dhuum
3. Melandru
4. Balthazar
5. Lysaa
6. Abaddon/Kormir
7. The Great Dwarf

If the god(s) Abaddon killed were ever mentioned, it would have to be the Great Dwarf.

O, no no no. The Dragons oppose the gods. They are supposedly older then the gods and stronger then them. If anything, the Gods served the Dragons, and after the Dragons went into hybernation, the gods changed how they did things. And now that the dragons are awakening, the gods are fleeing *according to the little info we know of GW2, the Gods completely leave tyria, aka no blessings/transport to the realm of the gods ever again*.

No, I hope to god your joking.
No, Droknar was the first Dwarven king, not the Great Dwarf. The Great Dwarf was a 'giant' supposedly, as he used Anvil Rock as an Anvil, thats one big 'dwarf' .

Let me fix it for you, and make it easier to understand who is what.
Dwayna - Goddess of Air and Life
Grenth - God of Cold and Death
Melandru - Goddess of Earth and Nature
Balthazar - God of Fire and War
Lyssa - Twin Goddess of Beauty and Illusion
Abaddon - God of Water and Secrets
Kormir - Goddess of Knowledge
Great Dwarf - Unknown *can't be stone as that is same as Earth, which is Melandru, and Balthazar basically takes Strength*

There is a God(dess) of air, Dwayna.
And there is a God of Water, Abaddon.

As for your element arguments, it is thought out. Ice, Earth, Air, Fire are all covered right away, and Water *a form of Ice* is brought in in NF.
Sun God would mean the leading god, which wouldn't happen as Dwayna is the head goddess. Time god is a good idea. One god that I believe is absolutely necessary in any belief would be a God of Balance. Can't have totality on one side or the other, always must be a balance of forces or else it would create Chaos.

In the scriptures of the gods, they use their elements quite well. Abaddon sinks a ton of ships, Grenth freezes the land over, Balthazar is symbolized by fire*I think, not sure on that one*, etc etc. To me, the god lore in GW was taken from ancient mythologies, multiple gods each governing different things, fire and war is usually put together, as is air and life, death is cold in a way so that makes sense, as does earth and nature. I personally think you don't look into lore enough, because I have only seen loopholes in lore that is "ancient" in the game, which is actually VERY natural if ANet is trying to make the game more realistic, older things are, the less we know.

Abaddon isn't called a god of lies, he just took that out of the idea of secrets, when you keep a secret, usually you lie, same thing with calling Kormir the goddess of Knowledge and Truth, although called that in game, the same principle exists.
The day has finally come, when I disagree with Free Runner. He did not actually defeat two of the five gods, in actuality, there were 7 gods, he killed on to gain the power of two gods. It says that Abaddon was able to overpower two of the five gods. That is, unless I misread it, which I don't think I did, and what I read was not wiki, but directly ANet supplied info. I'll search around for it and post it up later when I do find it. I think it was a NPC in NF.

Ok, from the above post, I assume Abaddon pretty much left two of the gods lying on the floor, bloodied and beaten using the power he gained from the two of the seven gods he did kill, and was about to kill/absorb their energy when the other 3 turned up and beat him back.

As for the argument for the Great Dwarf being a god, I think so. he could be the god of forge, since dwarfs do say that they'll go to the Great Forge when they die and be with the Great Dwarf. About Anvil Rock, he probably used that as an anvil when the gods of Tyria lived among mortals and we know from meeting Abaddon that gods are giant humanoids, so that does seem likely.

Actually he won over those 2 two gods. He did not go on a massive killing spree to absorb power from different deities (unless your talking about him becoming a god). Two of the five gods tried to stop him and failed. That is called defeat.

The Great Dwarf is considered different from the 6 gods therefore he is not included in the group. We still dont exactly know the power behind the great dwarf - as in is he an actual god in the Mists or is he just power.

Also Mist if he had killed 2 and defeated 2 more that would mean there were 8 gods not 7....

i agree with the notion that the way this is written can lead to confusion.

scenario 1. Abbadon overpowers 2 gods.

scenario 2. Abbadon has the power to defeat 2 gods (but doesn't since he is faced by five).

In scenario 1 we read the text as is, in scenario 2 we interpret Abbadons "power level" as a description.

example : Tom Strong had the strength of ten men.

This link comes from the Wiki:-
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon

But, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, the information there is not necessarily 100% accurate due to Wiki's subjective nature. I've never heard mention of these Seers of Twilight, so wondered if anyone else can corroborate with an Anet/in-game reference.

That actually makes a lot of sense, the Great Dwarf could be the "God of Creation" or something of that nature, not as much of a "god" as the other 6 but more of a powerful diety with rather straightforward powers, maybe even "contracted" by the other gods to create Tyria in the first place. It makes sense, he's worshipped by the Dwarves, some of the most inventive and creative races in GW (save the asura), and most things attributed to the Great Dwarf are things having to do with creation, Anvil Rock and all the aforementioned forge refrences.

To me makes more sense that the god of lies is Lyssa and not Abaddon. Lyssa is the goddess of Illusion and Chaos.

Ilussion=Lies

And in any case Abaddon and Lyssa are not the only ones who lie. if not what is the whole "His name has been eradicated from all history,
burnished from all monuments, condemned as blasphemy".

Abaddon fit more with the Lovecraftian horror theme of Knowledge=Madness because when you have knowledge you can see the true horrors of reality. Maybe Abaddon was aware of the imminent awakening of the dragons and everything that he did was a preparation for that.

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents...”

We do not know what these dragons are and Judging by their descriptions are far more ancient and powerful than the gods.
Perhaps the ancient dragons were the first or among the first creatures in existence before the gods appear or perhaps they were servers of other beings.

Personally I would ask to Arenanet a little more originality on this point. Instead of the typical story "Gods created the world" I would suggest something in the style of Greek mythology or Nordic: In the beginning there was only chaos and from there emerged the first beings or primordial forces.

Lyssa is not the goddess of Chaos. Where do people get this? It clearly states "Goddess of Beauty and Illusion" no where does it say Chaos.

I do like your imput of "Knowledge=Madness" because in many cases it does act like that, and in many games too, one that comes to my mind right away is Prince of Persia:Warrior Within, the Empress of Time knows her fate, and is grief stricken with it till she meets the prince, according to her at least .

I still hold to the theory of the gods being servents of the Dragons, who then rebelled and sent the Dragons into hibernation. And, seeing how the gods are no longer around in GW2, they leave in fear. Makes good sense to me at least. And if not that then it should be that the Dragons and the Gods are the same beings, but different sides of their personalities. That also works with the Gods leaving and having no contact at all.

Is it a possibility that ArenaNet made the GuildWars gods almost identical towards the Gods of Mythology.

If so, then shouldn't there be 'half' gods (which are half human/god; offbreed of a human and a god).

Also if the heroes of GuildWars was able to defeat Abbadon and create the Goddess of Truths in the process, then we should have a little bid divine power like the gods.

If my theory is correct, then whose our father/mother. Maybe in GuildWars2 we will be able to find this out throughout the storyline.

Blizzard, there is a half god, his name is Menzies.

Just as in mythology, there are normal humans who get lucky and can kill strong monsters. For us, Abaddon was chained so he was weakened, allowing us to kill him.

1. Dwayna
2. Balthazar
3. Grenth
4. Melandru
5. Lyssa
(+6. Abaddon/Kormir)

The original Pantheon.

6. Abaddon (fallen God)
7. Menzies
- Balthazar's evil half-brother. God or aspiring to become one. Half-brother means same mother or father, but who is the other mother/father then? Who is the father/mother of Balthazar???
8. Dhuum (fallen God, Grenth conquered his realm)
9. Kormir (replacement-God for Abaddon)
10. The Great Dwarf (Dwarven homie)
11. The Great Destroyer (god or demon, no idea)
12. Primordus + other ancient dragons (more Dragon than god, but powerful for sure)
13. Akivasha (my Necro, Grind-God Walking Amongst Mere GW-Players)


Who knows how many gods are out there, if we refer to the Gods in GW, we usually mean the original 5/6 that are worshipped by the humans.

Just the impression it gives combined with the way mesmers are.

1. Corresponding damage type.

2. If Mesmers had a DnD style alignment they would be Chaotic (imo).

from dndwiki.

"Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

sounds like mesmer to me.

Menzies is a half-god because his brother, Balthazar, has more power.

I ment half-god as in half-human, half-god/divine figure

Seeing how Balthazar is struggling in the war with Menzies, I don't think that Balthazar truly has more power, I think that Menzies is in fact a demi-god *may not be half-human, but is half-non-divine*.

Perhaps, that the Great Dwarf, is not a god at all, remember, in 10,000 BE (before exodus) was the last sign of the Giants on Tyria, maybe the Great Dwarf was a giant, that could explain his massive height and using Anvil Rock as his forge.

Considering that Menzies has an entire army of shadows at his disposal, and Balthazar only has a select few chosen who has died and gone to the Mists, It would make sense that Menzies has somewhat of an upperhand, like most good army vs bad army scenerios.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Seer

Rembemer that Mursaat Vs Seer topic? All is relationated.