I was originally considering this thread for just the paragon thread but I think it has to do with all the classes in the game.
Now I think we can all agree that paragons are pretty imbalanced within the game. They have received nerf after nerf in PvP yet remain as formidable opponents.
The strength of the paragon over other classes comes in many different forms. Imbalanced energy management, unremovable party wide buffs, almost a permanent IAS with virtually no negative, the DPS of a warrior at range, I'm sure the list goes on but those are what I can think of off the top of my head.
Basically there is very few counters to what the paragon can do. When they buff a party member, that buff remains for its entire duration, it can't be stripped like an enchant or removed like a stance.
Now what I'm asking is, if the paragon had been a core class would it have been less imbalanced? Basically what I'm thinking is if the paragon had existed from the beginning of prophecies there would have been more time to evaluate the strength of the class. Subsequently with the release of factions/NF/EotN there would have been skills added to ALL classes which could have helped counter some of the paragon's abilities.
Now some of you may say that would have put ppl who only own prophecies at a disadvantage but is that no different than how it is now? Clearly someone who owns all 3 campaigns + EotN will have an advantage over someone who only owns one game.
The second argument I can think of, is had skills been developed to counter a paragon, they would have to be skills which are solely targeted against paragons thus making the skills useless against any other class. Ie. the removal or prevention of refrains, echos, chants and shouts. Well I can't think of too much against this... other than potentially the skills have some kind of additional bonus or use.
With this thread I'm basically leading into GW2, it has been rumored that with GW2 there may be the removal of some classes. Many ppl have put the paragon up on the chopping block for removal. Well with GW2 they can start from the beginning with balance much in the same way as if the paragon had been a core class originally. But hey, sounds like GW2 is going to be aimed more at solo play anyways so party wide buffs really don't seem to serve much purpose right?
If the paragon was a core class would it have been less imba?
Inger
GaaaaaH
I thought that the imba--ness of the paragon is due to the new balance system that they tried with NF, which was to tone down the power with each update compared to incresing the weaker ones that thye used to do.
Similar to the paragons unstripable buffs is the ritualist (weapon spells), and as i found out recently, there is no specific way to stop their rituals exept the generic skill interupts.
Similar to the paragons unstripable buffs is the ritualist (weapon spells), and as i found out recently, there is no specific way to stop their rituals exept the generic skill interupts.
dilan155
ya like the above poster said para buffs are like weapon spells they are both unstrippable short of interrupting the skill itself. However unlike rit wep spells there are ways to stop paras such as ulcerous lungs etc which pretty much renders a para useless. i know cause i hate skills like that in pve, i never play one in pvp. i dunno if there are ways to stop rits, if there is then pls mention themn if anyone know
Songbringer
They could just buff the wild's. You know the wild blow wild strike and wild throw. To remove chants and shouts or something like that. I don't know how many played during beta but there was a skill that a warrior had to remove wards. Something like that would be nice for weapon spells and chants. Maybe like a warrior shout that was like Be Quiet or I Command You To Shut Up. That removed all chants shouts and anthems. Weapon spells could weaked by allowing shatter/rend/inspire and the 15 million other enchant removers to also include weapon spells.
DarkNecrid
If the Paragon was a core class, it wouldn't of made it to release.
1 up and 2 down
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Originally Posted by Songbringer
They could just buff the wild's. You know the wild blow wild strike and wild throw. To remove chants and shouts or something like that. I don't know how many played during beta but there was a skill that a warrior had to remove wards. Something like that would be nice for weapon spells and chants. Maybe like a warrior shout that was like Be Quiet or I Command You To Shut Up. That removed all chants shouts and anthems. Weapon spells could weaked by allowing shatter/rend/inspire and the 15 million other enchant removers to also include weapon spells.
If Anet does this, then they can make it so multiple weapon spells can be on one person.
The Meth
Paragons being a core class would just mean we would have a hundred more useless nerfed into the ground skills and still be relying on the 1% overpowered stuff and our infinite energy machine.
Paragon was a straight up badly designed profession. Unremovable (mostly) instant cast party wide defensive and offensive buffs while simultaneously putting out more DPS then a warrior and at a range, along with a permanent IAS. Also, you can for all intents and purposes delete the energy bar from your screen, its meaningless. Yeah, looks fine to me.
Paragon was a straight up badly designed profession. Unremovable (mostly) instant cast party wide defensive and offensive buffs while simultaneously putting out more DPS then a warrior and at a range, along with a permanent IAS. Also, you can for all intents and purposes delete the energy bar from your screen, its meaningless. Yeah, looks fine to me.
HawkofStorms
It would still be imbalanced, but if it was around for 3 years, I bet there would be less noob/scrubs saying "paragons suck"
Natures Spirt
YOUR SAYING TO NERF PARAGONS WHEN THEY REALLY NEED TO BE BUFFED. Sorry i had to do that ok the shouts and echos and stuff could be nerfed a little bit but paragons need more skills that do damage because i dont like paragons being support/casters with a spear i want a support/damaging all around profession
credit
Get rid of Rits/Sins/Para/Derv, then maybe this game would be decent.
Tyla
No. It wouldn't.
byteme!
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Originally Posted by credit
Get rid of Rits/Sins/Para/Derv, then maybe this game would be decent.
What difference does it make? The average PuG is either using Ursan or The Holy Trinity. If you get rid of the 4 said classes this game would die a hard death.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by byteme!
What difference does it make? The average PuG is either using Ursan or The Holy Trinity. If you get rid of the 4 said classes this game would die a hard death.
He was talking about PvP.
And yes, the game would be far better without them.
And yes, the game would be far better without them.
Inger
Well I think weapon spells don't really have the same level of scope as a paragon because:
1. Weapon spells can't be cast party wide, not everyone in the party becomes affected by a weapon spell at once
2. Only one weapon spell can be placed on a person at once.
Thus for example if someone gets enchanted with weapon of warding, you have no way of removing it yes, but you can simply switch targets. Much like you would if someone activated a blocking stance and you had no stance removal.
Now if a paragon uses Defensive Anthem... you've got no where to turn, switch targets and that new person has just as much blocking ability as the previous target.
1. Weapon spells can't be cast party wide, not everyone in the party becomes affected by a weapon spell at once
2. Only one weapon spell can be placed on a person at once.
Thus for example if someone gets enchanted with weapon of warding, you have no way of removing it yes, but you can simply switch targets. Much like you would if someone activated a blocking stance and you had no stance removal.
Now if a paragon uses Defensive Anthem... you've got no where to turn, switch targets and that new person has just as much blocking ability as the previous target.
Woop Shotty
In Tyria, they call them Elementalists. Headgear joke. Sorry for bringing a little humor to something serious.
Panais
u can blind, the para, then use those mesmers to drain his energy. If the para cant build up adrenaline to cast chants, he cant get energy, and without energy he cant do anything. So a blinding ele and a mesmer can render a para useless, and u usually see both in a team. Also necros have skills specially to counter the paragon. The paragon is imbalanced but there is a way to destroy him. And before u start flaming over how its useless to have 2 ppl focus on 1 person to shut him down, the ele could be the runner(useless anyway) and blind the para eveytime he brings the flag, and the mesmer can alternate between the para and every1 else. That was for GvG btw. Why not nerf the warrior and dervish so they cant run? Why not nerf the monk so he cant heal as effective? why not nerf the necro so he cant use echo SS and destroy an area? Why? Why? Why?
All classes are imba in a way or another. The paragon was meant to be a party wide buffer.
All classes are imba in a way or another. The paragon was meant to be a party wide buffer.
Tyla
^
Once again: JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING CAN BE COUNTERED DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT IMBALANCED.
How many times do you have to say that before it sinks in?!
And besides, with that logic, nothing can be imbalanced. Just. Because. It's. Counterable.
So then skill balance will be useless, why? Because nothing is imbalanced!
Please come up to the top 100 and show you're in one of them guilds and playing on observe before you say something as retarded as that. For the millionth time.
And I'll even lol then.
Once again: JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING CAN BE COUNTERED DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT IMBALANCED.
How many times do you have to say that before it sinks in?!
And besides, with that logic, nothing can be imbalanced. Just. Because. It's. Counterable.
So then skill balance will be useless, why? Because nothing is imbalanced!
Please come up to the top 100 and show you're in one of them guilds and playing on observe before you say something as retarded as that. For the millionth time.
And I'll even lol then.
Adja1005
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Originally Posted by Tyla
^ Once again: JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING CAN BE COUNTERED DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT IMBALANCED.
How many times do you have to say that before it sinks in?!
And besides, with that logic, nothing can be imbalanced. Just. Because. It's. Counterable.
So then skill balance will be useless, why? Because nothing is imbalanced!
Please come up to the top 100 and show you're in one of them guilds and playing on observe before you say something as retarded as that. For the millionth time. Elitism FTL! and considering you have a spongebob square pants avatar i'm not so sure you should be giving out criticism...
And seriously Paragon's are not all that hard to kill in PvP. Either the Paragon's i've faced really suck or you fail at killing them in PvP.
And as noted already there are counters to Paragons that are semi effective at their job. It just takes some time and effort to use them effectively. Also before you decide to be a smart arse i'm not saying because there are counters that Paragons are instantly balanced. I'm just saying there are counters that if used properly can be quite effective.
How many times do you have to say that before it sinks in?!
And besides, with that logic, nothing can be imbalanced. Just. Because. It's. Counterable.
So then skill balance will be useless, why? Because nothing is imbalanced!
Please come up to the top 100 and show you're in one of them guilds and playing on observe before you say something as retarded as that. For the millionth time. Elitism FTL! and considering you have a spongebob square pants avatar i'm not so sure you should be giving out criticism...
And seriously Paragon's are not all that hard to kill in PvP. Either the Paragon's i've faced really suck or you fail at killing them in PvP.
And as noted already there are counters to Paragons that are semi effective at their job. It just takes some time and effort to use them effectively. Also before you decide to be a smart arse i'm not saying because there are counters that Paragons are instantly balanced. I'm just saying there are counters that if used properly can be quite effective.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Adja1005
Even then, it's still stupid.
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What are you talking here? Alliance Battles?
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oh right, you mean Blinding Surge, the skill that just got nerfed to shit? Good one.|
And as noted already there are counters to Paragons that are semi effective at their job. It just takes some time and effort to use them effectively. Also before you decide to be a smart arse i'm not saying because there are counters that Paragons are instantly balanced. I'm just saying there are counters that if used properly can be quite effective.
And when you've also got 2 Warriors / Dervs? You can't B-Surge all of them at once because the Paragon is ranged, which leads you to having 2 stronger DPS characters bashing you in for even more damage. The Paragon's DPS isn't the only thing you have to worry about. And don't think people don't use these counters already. Anti-melee counters are usually in teams. Things like Aegis, Guardian and basically skills which stop big damage are already there. They also use skills that they develope through normal play and learn anyway, such as kiting for instance. DarkNecrid
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u can blind, the para,
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If the para cant build up adrenaline to cast chants, he cant get energy, and without energy he cant do anything.
That'd be cool if Paras used chants that required adrenaline to use. They use Anthem of Flame, which requires Energy to make more energy than it costs. Quote:
[skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill]
What up. Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex the Great
are you saying you cant bring vocal minority, any blind skills
Theorycrafting from someone who clearly doesn't PvP. In order to bring a Paragon shutdown hex, you need to be running a full hex build or something close. Throwing a single hex out, such a powerful hex at that, is going to get it removed almost instantly. Unless you can overload their hex removal or disrupt their hex removal enough to stick the hex, it has no real effect. Sure, you can run hex builds, but not everyone does. As for blind, people do bring that, yet Warriors still kill things. This is because of a magical thing called removal. Quote:
[defensive anthem][aggressive refrain][bladeturn refrain][burning refrain][mending refrain][hasty refrain][soldier's fury] Yeah, they don't.
Oh yeah, chants ARE unremovable buffs... Quote: How do you counter chants? With same interrupts.(mesmer interrupts work just fine) |
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Everyone does use them, or something.|
The skills themselves are not a problem(they have been nerfed so far it's ridiculous. Paragon secondaries are almost never seen and even then it's just R/P spear. Absence of paragon secondaries shows how crap para skills are).
Look at a Paragon's armour level. Look at it's unremovable IAS. Look at it's energy management. Look at base spear damage. Quote:
The Echoes fulfill the condition of the skills he listed.
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Especially when you're brought down to zero and your shouts are only giving you 4 energy a shot. It just goes bye bye.
*8. Quote:
They aren't ment to be all powerful killing machines.
They deal slightly less damage than a Warrior with the application of deep wound being a bit harder, at range while throwing out defensive / offensive buffs. Quote: |
Quote: Energy draining skills do effect the 'unlimited' energy paragons have. Especially when you're brought down to zero and your shouts are only giving you 4 energy a shot. It just goes bye bye. Yet that energy would be back in what, a few seconds?
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Those skills that stop you gaining adrenaline are a bastard and so is blind.
Yeah I know, it's a shame there isn't something called hex removal or condition removal. Quote:
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