IAS for imbagon

Princess Pwnage

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Quit Barkin If U Don't Bite [RAWR]

P/W

I know that Aggressive Refrain is the standard IAS for any paragon, and thus Imbagon. But I was thinking, it only increases attack speed 25%, lowers your armor by 20, and its obnoxious to cast anthem of flame every 10 seconds to keep it up. So why not tap into the warrior side of an imbagon and use either flurry, frenzy, or flail.

Flurry could work if you don't care about damage, personally, my imbagon is mainly to reduce damage, and the damage output is a nice little bonus. Plus with all the SY! and other shouts you'll have plenty of energy. It also increases attack speed by 33% instead of 25% like AR.

Frenzy is the same as above except it lets you keep the nice damage. Since you're a paragon you don't have to worry too much about getting attacked...until you use SY and all the baddies target the 100 less armor target, so that might be a problem. This double damage also makes the -20 armor from Aggressive Refrain irrelevant. But on the otherhand, monks will probably (hopefully) be concentrating on you more since you're the main target, so it may even out.

Finally, there's Flail, which will last for 5 seconds with 0 str. If you have a long lasting SY, or adrenaline isn't much of a problem, I feel like this would probably be the best option.

Please comment with what you think of this. I'm sure I skipped some important stuff so correct my wrongdoings please.

[DE]

[DE]

Hugs and Kisses

Join Date: Oct 2005

Scars Meadows

Since when did Imbagons bring Anthem of Flame? Aggressive Refrain is mainly kept up by TNTF and SY.



edit: ups, forgot SY doesn't affect yourself. Regardless TNTF let's you keep it up 24/7

Mitchel

Mitchel

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2007

Almkerk, The Netherlands

P/W

You could try Drunken Master, but then you'd have to take out a PvE skill.

Princess Pwnage

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Quit Barkin If U Don't Bite [RAWR]

P/W

Well first SY doesn't help at all cause it doesn't affect you. I really don't wanna cast AR at the beginning of every battle and drain my energy. And I don't wanna cast TNtF outside of battle to help keep up AR, I'd rather use Anthem of Flame and make sure that TNtF is charged for battle.

Nightow

Nightow

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]

12 Leadership only gives you back a max of 6 energy. Trying to keep it up outside of battle could be costly if someone has to afk and sorry for going off topic but if you really wanted to reduce dmg, bring [anthem of weariness].

petrorabbit

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
I know that Aggressive Refrain is the standard IAS for any paragon, and thus Imbagon. But I was thinking, it only increases attack speed 25%, lowers your armor by 20, and its obnoxious to cast anthem of flame every 10 seconds to keep it up. So why not tap into the warrior side of an imbagon and use either flurry, frenzy, or flail.

Flurry could work if you don't care about damage, personally, my imbagon is mainly to reduce damage, and the damage output is a nice little bonus. Plus with all the SY! and other shouts you'll have plenty of energy. It also increases attack speed by 33% instead of 25% like AR.

Frenzy is the same as above except it lets you keep the nice damage. Since you're a paragon you don't have to worry too much about getting attacked...until you use SY and all the baddies target the 100 less armor target, so that might be a problem. This double damage also makes the -20 armor from Aggressive Refrain irrelevant. But on the otherhand, monks will probably (hopefully) be concentrating on you more since you're the main target, so it may even out.

Finally, there's Flail, which will last for 5 seconds with 0 str. If you have a long lasting SY, or adrenaline isn't much of a problem, I feel like this would probably be the best option.

Please comment with what you think of this. I'm sure I skipped some important stuff so correct my wrongdoings please. Personally, i use flail, its fairly easy to maintain, and easy to get enough adrenaline to start it. The duration is short enough that you're not slowed for too long. The only downside is it can slightly throw off you SY cycles, but that can be easily compensated for with a little attention.

Besides, its funny to see a spear turret in action.

Bo Fairfield

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

Mu Tants [MU]

Me/

[build=OQGjUqmIKTWYAhxgPYhfpbubybA]
That's what my para uses... I use a sup leadership hat at the start when I first cast AR, so I get 26 seconds in which to renew. that means I only have to cast [[Anthem of Weariness] every once in a while, not at all if it's a quick group, so it really isn't that big of a deal.
I know it doesn't have EBSoH, but I like having a res, and gfte is awesome

uby

uby

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

P/

the alternative to [Aggressive Refrain][Focused Anger] is [Soldier's Fury][For Great Justice][Enduring Harmony]. it takes up an extra skill slot, but the adrenaline gain is about the same over time and you don't deal with cracked armor. There is a long 15 second period of time where you don't have increased adrenaline gain, during which time you won't be able to keep up SY constantly.

edit to add: 25% IAS means attack rate of 1.13 per second for spear, versus 1.00 per second at 33% IAS. meaning, ignoring adrenaline modifiers, you gain 13% more adrenaline using a 33% IAS versus 25% IAS. focused anger at 12 leadership (typical value for imbagon) is 120% adren gain with 25% downtime. FGJ+Enduring Harmony is 100% adren gain with 33% downtime. so, they are almost identical in terms of adren gain rate. 4 strikes either way to renew SY.

knoll

knoll

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Washington State.

[ToA]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
12 Leadership only gives you back a max of 6 energy. Trying to keep it up outside of battle could be costly if someone has to afk and sorry for going off topic but if you really wanted to reduce dmg, bring [anthem of weariness]. It is easy to keep it up. You are doing it wrong.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
Plus with all the SY! and other shouts you'll have plenty of energy.
Aggressive Refrain is a one time 25 energy use, after 5 uses of Flurry you're using more energy to keep up your IAS.

Quote: Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage Frenzy Aggressive Refrain is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
Finally, there's Flail, which will last for 5 seconds with 0 str. If you have a long lasting SY, or adrenaline isn't much of a problem, I feel like this would probably be the best option. In a perfect world without blocks, miss hexes, and Soothing Images maybe. That and Aggressive Refrain not existing.

Zsig

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

You don't want to use AR before battles start because you don't want to waste your precious 25 energy. Ok, that I understand.... but.

What else would you use your energy for?

Providing you have no Death Penalty (and if you do, just bring a staff for extra energy) , 30 energy is enough to use AR and then follow with [[for great justice].

Next thing, you'll be spamming [[go for the eyes] and [[save yourselves] like crazy and when you notice your energy will be up back to 30 in no time.

Going a bit off topic, what's the point of having more energy than you could possibly spend?

Sir Owns Alot EP

Sir Owns Alot EP

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

[Town]

P/W

Tweak builds to your own preferance. I use Frenzy, despite the oftentimes bad rep it gets on this site, and it works fine for me.

Nightow

Nightow

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by knoll
It is easy to keep it up. You are doing it wrong. Always bring a battery necro? (please explain)

BTW, when I say keep it up, I mean like there's afker's and you have no idea if they're going to be afk for like 10 seconds or 5 minutes.

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

I do this when I enter an area:

Aggressive Refrain->For Great Justice

By the time FGJ runs out, I can start keeping up AR with TntF. And yes that is with 30 energy

If I happen to party wipe, I'll switch to a +5 energy spear and repeat the same procedure, then go back to my 15^50 when I have enough energy to keep TntF up easily or my DP goes back down.

MisterB

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

Enter zone.
Equip Superior Leadership helm and a staff.
Activate [[Aggressive [email protected]] and [There's Nothing to Fear]. You could use FGJ as above poster suggested, I suppose.
Switch back to your regular helm and weapon.
Maintain AR with TNtF throughout the rest of the zone.
Aggressive Refrain will refresh at the attribute you use to first apply it, so you only need a temporary boost to Leadership.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
Always bring a battery necro? (please explain)

BTW, when I say keep it up, I mean like there's afker's and you have no idea if they're going to be afk for like 10 seconds or 5 minutes.
Unless everyone has spread really far out you should be able to just hit There's Nothing To Fear! on recharge to keep Aggressive Refrain up. 6 energy returned on use and the other 9 will regenerate in the 20 seconds it takes for TNTF to recharge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Owns Alot EP
I use Frenzy, despite the oftentimes bad rep it gets on this site, and it works fine for me. Okay it works for you, but AR is just infinitely better. Cracked Armor vs. double damage; Aggressive Refrain is better. One time 25 energy investment vs. using your natural energy regeneration to maintain constant IAS; Aggressive Refrain is better. Unstrippable vs. strippable; Aggressive Refrain is better.

The only IAS better than Aggressive Refrain on a paragon is going to dip into your bank account (Essence, Drunken Master).

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

Listen to Racthoh people, AR is infinatly better then any IAS you can use (and arguably better then Drunken Master). Personally though, I use Racway and bind hero's Anthem of Flame to keep up AR.

I don't see why people see Cracked armor and flail around like a chicken with it's head cut off. If you using Centurion (Like you know you should be), your AL should -still- be around 80 or some. Even so, If you are being targeted with enough aggro that Cracked armor is making a difference, your either doing it wrong, or your team has died (Which essentially means your doing it wrong anyway, since your a imbagon). Paragons do not attract much aggro (Yes, even without Vitae, you health nuts.).

Darkside

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

D/

I had my doubts about AR when I first made my Paragon and initially I wanted to use Flurry but was convinced by the peeps here that AR was the way to go. I tried it out and it hasn't left my bar. More often then not the Cracked Armor gets removed almost instantly by one of my hero's and if not it's not a big deal anyway since you're a mid liner and generally not targeted.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

AR only gives 100% SY uptime if you have either

1) Near max Luxon rank (5 seconds)
2) Dark Fury

Lacking either of those, 33% from frenzy has its virtues. But I wouldn't trust it without a human prot monk.

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat
AR only gives 100% SY uptime if you have either

1) Near max Luxon rank (5 seconds)
2) Dark Fury

Lacking either of those, 33% from frenzy has its virtues. But I wouldn't trust it without a human prot monk. Not true.

I have rank 7 Kurz. and when I'm in a party without someone throwing around Dark Fury I'm able to keep it consistantly. Having Dark Fury allows you effectively overlap your SY's-I'm noticing that my SY recharges about halfway through it's duration.

Now if you have a low Kurz/Lux rank then Dark Fury has a major impact.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

I always use Flurry when my party is going to have 8 members; any lower than that and you'd have to use AR because of energy problems.
Healing/Prot Monks never use smiting skills, so why should the "Imbagon" use spear attacks when it is supposed to fill in the exact same role in a group? Besides, Smite Condition/Hex do more damage than something like Spear of Lightning just because it's AoE but Monks never use it.

Off topic: If you want Weakness, use Enfeebling Blood from a SS Necromancer.

Shaz

Shaz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS]

AR should be a staple skill on every paragon bar. While it's true that Drunken Master and Celerity/Alcohol works, most of the time you're better off with some other PvE skill.

Any paragon that have no spear mastery/no attack skills is just bad. Your role as a paragon is a damage dealer while providing some partywide support, defensively/offensively, to the team. You're not suppose to fill your whole bar with support skills.

Princess Pwnage

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Quit Barkin If U Don't Bite [RAWR]

P/W

A lot of you have addressed the cracked armor, and the coolness of only casting AR once and then keeping it up, but what about the 25% and 33% difference, although it looks like not much there's actually a significant difference in the adrenaline gained. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but I found them to be enough to not ignore.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
A lot of you have addressed the cracked armor, and the coolness of only casting AR once and then keeping it up, but what about the 25% and 33% difference, although it looks like not much there's actually a significant difference in the adrenaline gained. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but I found them to be enough to not ignore. 25% IAS with a spear = 1.13 attack rate.
33% IAS with a spear = 1.00 attack rate.

5 or 6 second SY and it makes absolutely no difference. 4 second SY you'd keep it up maybe half a second longer with a 33% IAS. 3 second SY I'd always have an order bot with Dark Fury, or monks who aren't bad and can perform well without permanent +100 AL.

Mr Pink57

Mr Pink57

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

a van down by the river

iBench

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
I always use Flurry when my party is going to have 8 members; any lower than that and you'd have to use AR because of energy problems.
Healing/Prot Monks never use smiting skills, so why should the "Imbagon" use spear attacks when it is supposed to fill in the exact same role in a group? Besides, Smite Condition/Hex do more damage than something like Spear of Lightning just because it's AoE but Monks never use it. Because spear attacks take nothing away from the paragon, they only add. You can reduce over 80% of non armor ignoring damage and put out some serious damage. My last highest crit from my gon was 111 +3 (vamp) and that was in HM why remove this from your gon?

The imba is based on 13 to 14 spear mastery not 13 to 14 leadership which just shows how strong it really is.

The only thing I have ever found flurry good on was a IW mesmer.

pink

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
A lot of you have addressed the cracked armor, and the coolness of only casting AR once and then keeping it up, but what about the 25% and 33% difference, although it looks like not much there's actually a significant difference in the adrenaline gained. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, but I found them to be enough to not ignore.
You should be filling up adrenaline fast anyway. .5 seconds doesn't really make much of a difference for me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Schmerdro I always use Flurry when my party is going to have 8 members; any lower than that and you'd have to use AR because of energy problems. Why would you use Flurry over AR anyway? AR is a free IAS, and allows more spamming of attack skills.

Quote:
Healing/Prot Monks never use smiting skills, so why should the "Imbagon" use spear attacks when it is supposed to fill in the exact same role in a group? Because the Imbagon reaches it's goal without a dedicated bar. Not to mention running a Paragon with no spear mastery is stupid because spears are one of the strongest weapons in the game.

Quote:
Besides, Smite Condition/Hex do more damage than something like Spear of Lightning just because it's AoE but Monks never use it. Have you took into account recharges of those skills, along with aftercast and the requirement to have a condition or hex?

A Paragon can also autoattack for strong, steady DPS. Spear attacks just enhance the flavour.

odly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

With AR in 5 sec you'll hit 4.5 times on average. This gives you 9 adrenalin.

With furry in 5 sec you'll hit 5 times. This gives you 10 adrenalin, but you'll need 1 to reactivate flurry, so you end up with a gain of 9 as well.

The numbers are not exact, but close enough to conclude that the difference is going to be pretty small.

Since keeping AR up with TNTF is pretty easy once you get accustomed to it, the choice to make is between being slowed down (but ranged) or having -20 armour some of he time.

odly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Healing/Prot Monks never use smiting skills, so why should the "Imbagon" use spear attacks when it is supposed to fill in the exact same role in a group? . Because you can and because you're not supposed to ...

When I'm monking and party members are full heath I can be seen wanding foes. Why ? because I can.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmerdro
Healing/Prot Monks never use smiting skills, so why should the "Imbagon" use spear attacks when it is supposed to fill in the exact same role in a group? Besides, Smite Condition/Hex do more damage than something like Spear of Lightning just because it's AoE but Monks never use it. Paragons are offensive/defensive characters. That means if your party is getting fubar'ed and you decide you need more defense you have 2 choices - you bring a full defensive character reducing, your damage, or you bring an hybrid that will boost your defense without reducing your offense.

Paragons are the most versatile class in that.

So basically your paragon skill bar only starts with 7 open slots cause the 8th is aggressive refrain.

As a side note, loads of people seem to bring Ebon battle standard of honor, but if any other human player can carry it by all means make him/her do so - [[anthem of flame] + spear attack + [[spear of fury] with either focused of for greater justice is a great oponer in any battle.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Pwnage
I know that Aggressive Refrain is the standard IAS for any paragon, and thus Imbagon. But I was thinking, it only increases attack speed 25%, lowers your armor by 20, and its obnoxious to cast anthem of flame every 10 seconds to keep it up. So why not tap into the warrior side of an imbagon and use either flurry, frenzy, or flail.

Flurry could work if you don't care about damage, personally, my imbagon is mainly to reduce damage, and the damage output is a nice little bonus. Plus with all the SY! and other shouts you'll have plenty of energy. It also increases attack speed by 33% instead of 25% like AR.

Frenzy is the same as above except it lets you keep the nice damage. Since you're a paragon you don't have to worry too much about getting attacked...until you use SY and all the baddies target the 100 less armor target, so that might be a problem. This double damage also makes the -20 armor from Aggressive Refrain irrelevant. But on the otherhand, monks will probably (hopefully) be concentrating on you more since you're the main target, so it may even out.

Finally, there's Flail, which will last for 5 seconds with 0 str. If you have a long lasting SY, or adrenaline isn't much of a problem, I feel like this would probably be the best option.

Please comment with what you think of this. I'm sure I skipped some important stuff so correct my wrongdoings please. Anthem of Flame sucks big time.

An imbagon not doing damage is kinda missing the point of playing paragon in the first place - high, ranged damage.

Creatures rarely attack you so cracked armor should rarely be an issue. It's usually removed fairly quickly anyway.

Flail as you said is the best option, but Aggressive refrain doesn't have the problem with taking up your adrenaline.

Mort Mythoryk

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2008

Houston, Tx

Wracked With Indecision [iffy]

N/

honestly.

I always use flurry for my IAS. I do not want the cracked armor stacked with the fact that Im not armor buffed as well... like the starter said.. big bullseye on you.. not a good idea imo, also the 33% vs. 25% is a big factor in adrenaline gain.. and if you're using a zealous mod (explained momentarily) it really helps.

As far as most imbagon builds I've seen using attacks skills... >.> WTF?
The paragon dmg output as a whole imo is lack. even at 16 spear you're skill.. mediocre at best. So, with that being said.. and guild wars as a generalized game being focused on role's and team effort.. I strongly feel that the imbagon is a support build.. and should be focused on souly that. I put my leftover attributes into spear.. putting major leadership and major moto. using ballad of resto, mending refrain and sig of synergy for when I get in a bind for some quick self heal/support for the healer... and as always TNtF. I use FA and FGJ for adrenaline gain.. and a furiour or zealous spear depending on what's needed at the moment.

I have no energy problems keeping flurry up every 5 seconds, and with it being about the same duration as SY.. it's not too bad of a chore to maintain.
As for Ballad, with SY ending every 5 seconds.. you have the energy to maintain that... and mending refrain is maintained throughout the battle..
But with mending refrain.. as always.. it's a chore and a half to cast it on everyone in the group.. so I usually try and keep it up on melee or heavily targeted allies.

just my perspective.

Rhamia Darigaz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort Mythoryk
honestly.

I always use flurry for my IAS. I do not want the cracked armor stacked with the fact that Im not armor buffed as well... like the starter said.. big bullseye on you.. not a good idea imo, also the 33% vs. 25% is a big factor in adrenaline gain.. and if you're using a zealous mod (explained momentarily) it really helps.

As far as most imbagon builds I've seen using attacks skills... >.> WTF?
The paragon dmg output as a whole imo is lack. even at 16 spear you're skill.. mediocre at best. So, with that being said.. and guild wars as a generalized game being focused on role's and team effort.. I strongly feel that the imbagon is a support build.. and should be focused on souly that. I put my leftover attributes into spear.. putting major leadership and major moto. using ballad of resto, mending refrain and sig of synergy for when I get in a bind for some quick self heal/support for the healer... and as always TNtF. I use FA and FGJ for adrenaline gain.. and a furiour or zealous spear depending on what's needed at the moment.

I have no energy problems keeping flurry up every 5 seconds, and with it being about the same duration as SY.. it's not too bad of a chore to maintain.
As for Ballad, with SY ending every 5 seconds.. you have the energy to maintain that... and mending refrain is maintained throughout the battle..
But with mending refrain.. as always.. it's a chore and a half to cast it on everyone in the group.. so I usually try and keep it up on melee or heavily targeted allies.

just my perspective. ups, you just described how not to play an imbagon.

Dairith

Dairith

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2008

Our Titles are [SiCK]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort Mythoryk
As far as most imbagon builds I've seen using attacks skills... >.> WTF?
The paragon dmg output as a whole imo is lack. even at 16 spear you're skill.. mediocre at best. We playing the same game?

Sure a paragon's damage is "mediocre" when compared too, say, a D-Slash war whose entire bar is centered around getting out as much damage as possible. But when compared to a prot monk, which you'd need to get anywhere even close to the benefit that a para would bring to a party, a para's damage is amazing.

-------------------------

While I haven't played around with other IAS's much, AR > other IAS's, simply because it takes nothing for me to maintain. I use "ToF" to maintain mine and I'm netting energy, not loosing energy (or even worse adren).

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

[aggressive refrain][anthem of weariness][save yourselves]

OH NOEZ THE SYNERGY