The Five Gods, Abaddon's taste for eyes, and the Temples of Grenth and Balthazar.

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

The mysteries behind the Temples of Grenth and Balthazar have long been pondered over by many lore researchers in this very forum. For some they became definitive displays of Mursaat architectures, for others a source of much controversy. The eyes that adorned the structures, the key source of all this. Some would say they were depictions of the Eye of Janthir, and for a time this was taken as fact. These Temples were built by the Mursaat. However, I dislike this simple reasoning, the Mursaat are a complex race in Tyria, and should not be taken so lightly.

Two people in particular sparked the thought that brings this theory about, one that the Mursaat were the "architects" of the world, the other that the eye itself is actually a representation of the Five Gods. I think that, in fact, the eye is actually a representation of the Five Gods, that it is a symbol of them watching over Tyria. However, why place such symbols of importance in these strange isolated locations if you want your worshipers to know of it? This is where the Mursaat come in, I think that they worked in the background, building structures and cities before any human. Worshiping the Five Gods at one time themselves, and followed in their every step.

When the Exodus occurred, they felt betrayed, and abandoned their Temples, but did not deny their existence themselves. How could they? They sat on proof in the Ring of Fire Islands Chain, and in Bloodstone Fen. However, they needed to keep the Five Gods' remnants contained, their mess, so to speak. The Bloodstones were mainly guarded by them and they chose to use the ones that were close enough to be of use. It would seem likely that they had not been sacrificing the Chosen prior to their meeting of Saul, and it was by the Eye of Janthir that they discovered this property of the humans. That there was something significant about them, they must have discovered eventually that their blood could activate the Bloodstones.

I suspect that the runes and glyphs we see on Bloodstone Fen and the Bloodstone in Hell's Precipice were not actually there originally, rather they were put there by the Mursaat. Take note that the Bloodstone in the Bloodstone Caves shows no such markings and it looks very much like what may be a Bloodstone in its primitive state.

However, it also seems that the Mursaat may have known of its presence, and learned of another use for the runes that they had used previously. As seen here:



However, I have overlooked something, return to the Temples for a moment and then remember the Temple of Grenth in the Underworld, it seems possible that the Five Gods did not notice their devotion. As such they most likely contracted them to build Temples of grand magnificence in places chosen by the Gods themselves. Grenth perhaps even allowed their presence in the Underworld to construct his very own palace, his throne, of the Underworld.

What brings me to this conclusion is something that has caused endless debate amongst those researching here.

This:


And this:


I think that I, with ideas from one who suggested they were architects, have found the link here. However, you may ask, what does this have to do with Abaddon's taste for eyes? The eyes are a symbol of the Five Gods, as I stated earlier, the Gods erased nearly every trace of Abaddon. His revenge is taken in a similar way, in feasting on the eyes of those who worship the Five Gods. Their symbol becomes torment for their devout worshipers.

Another element, to add to the Mursaat being architects, is found in Abaddon's domain, actually. Something I had noticed quite often as I explored the Atrocity Library is the bridge at the entrance to the Domain of Secrets. Its architecture resembles the Temples to Grenth, and Balthazar, and the very architecture of Grenth's own palace. What secrets are there to be found in that? The Mursaat while devout worshipers, did not want to be known by the other races, indeed it was only by chance Saul found them. So in a way it represents the secrets Abaddon held about the origins of this strange, yet magnificent architecture.

Rhamia Darigaz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2008

your screenshots, like most ppls, make me wish my laptop sucked less enough to turn the graphics up.
am i the only person whos laptop cant run gw amazingly?
well thats my initial reaction, ill maybe edit when i actually read the post

dread slayer

dread slayer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

Somewhere

A guild??? What is that?

A/

Nice info...... but will wait for more arguments...

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

First, I must say I never noticed that symbol on Grenth's Palace.

Second, about the Realm of Torment architecture. I believe that it was said by a NPC that the realm is shifting to look like the real world. That is evident in Nightfallen Jahai and Abaddon's Gate (looks like Istani corrupted), what's to say that the architecture there is not just a copy of something in the world of Tyria?

Also, I believe the architecture of the Temples look a lot like the Eye of the North, which also looks similar to the building in Asford Abby/Sardelac Sanatarium. I personally think that the Seers built the eye of the north, as it its different then the usual Jade buildings by the Mursaat. If that were truem then the temples and that building in Asford Abby would be by the Seers too. Of course thats pure speculation on my part.

Nice theory and evidence, none the less.

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Technically only Nightfallen Jahai really resembles the real-world. More areas like it would almost certainly be added, had he successfully managed Nightfall. In the case of the Domain of Secrets, however, it's known for the, well, secrets it holds and not to mention the presence of the Atrocity Library.

Oh, and you wouldn't believe the in-between hypothesis/theory I have on the Eye of the North. No, I'm completely serious, it'd blow you away.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Well, the only GW theory that "blew me away" as I read it was the whole Odran was a mursaat, which was what started the Mursaat being architects, was it not? Also, only Nightfallen Jahai is close to resembling the real world, however there are bits here and there that resembles the real world, like the corrupted Great Sunspear Hall that can be seen in Abaddon's Gate outpost.

Gmr Leon

Gmr Leon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin
Well, the only GW theory that "blew me away" as I read it was the whole Odran was a mursaat, which was what started the Mursaat being architects, was it not?
Not really, I'd say it was the Odran was a Mursaat thing that brought about the everything is related to Mursaat contagion.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

I just remembered that there is a fan-made comic of GW. It has that symbol you talked about as the symbol of Odran. Of course that is probably that person's idea on that symbol, but its a possibility and seeing how Odran traveled through the rift, I think it may be possible that he left his symbol in the Underworld and in places throughout the world.

Here is a link to that fan-made comic for those who could use a funny read.

Neo Atomisk

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

W/

nice idea.

And the idea just occured to me that abaddons 6 eyes could represent all 6 gods.
Sadly, this leads to the "abaddon was a good guy" path, so I'll get flamed on it.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

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Actually, Neo, people overall are more Abaddon sympathizers then haters as it seems. This includes Jeff Grubb(sp?) (one of the lore writers for Anet - who wanted to have Abaddon redeemed instead of killed).

And I highly doubt that Abaddon's six eyes represents all 6 gods, I think that the six eye thing is just a fav of Anet, as many things have six eyes - like many things have spikes.

carnage-runner

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

[Sith]

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6 eyes. One to maybe watch each god.. Including himself.???

mist12

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

What if the 6 eyes were a mutation from being in the RoT for so long? Yeah I know that's out there but just a thought. I mean having spent so much time plotting a way out Abbadon could have forced new eyes to help over see his many followers trying to help him. He could have not trusted them to the point he wanted to watch what they were doing to help him escape. Just random thought.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

Mutation is highly unlikely.

The depiction of Abaddon in Gandara shows him with 6 eyes, and that is a depiction prior to the Exodus (supposedly).

Also, a recent find in the Dasha Vestibule mission:



"My eyes see all"

With that, I'd say that the eyes are a representation of Abaddon's knowledge, and with removing the eyes of his enemies, he (symbolically) removes/steals their knowledge.

Him removing eyes of his enemies like Kormir is like shouting out "I'm Baaaaaaaack!"

Neo Atomisk

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

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Wow! My idea didn't get shitted on. And with all the other stuff that gets made up here, 6 eyes to watch over the gods doesn't seem preposterous. And you yourself, azrael, said I shouldn't bring up abaddon b a good guy.ein

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk View Post
Wow! My idea didn't get shitted on. And with all the other stuff that gets made up here, 6 eyes to watch over the gods doesn't seem preposterous. And you yourself, azrael, said I shouldn't bring up abaddon b a good guy.ein
First,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
the six eye thing is just a fav of Anet, as many things have six eyes - like many things have spikes.
Second, Shouldn't bring it up, yes, but many people favor him. The reason why you shouldn't bring it up is because it has brought flames and going off-topic debates in the past, however it seems those have quelled, as shown by your first post in this thread.

carnage-runner

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

[Sith]

W/Me

The count of eyes must have some significance. If six is a number anet favors, there is a reason. As for him taking eyes to steal knowledge, I agree, but that doesn't explain why he has exactly 6 eyes and not 100,000... Look at your list of gods Azazel.. 6 gods inlcuding himself. One for each god, one for himself to use. This could also mean 1 eye for each special field that each god is attuned to. Balth- War-smite. etc. Things like that. 6 has some sort of significance, it's a matter of putting 3 and 3 together to figure it out.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

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Carnage, I think you are going in too deep for the eye thing. Many things have six eyes, from the Hell Hound and the horse of the Necrid Horseman, to Titans and Abaddon.

Some things have two eyes, some have four, some have 10. The amount of eyes doesn't have to have significance. That's not saying it doesn't, but I find it highly unlikely. And you can link anything to "6 eyes."

But if you do find something, and that is something that isn't "well this occurs so this and that must be connected!" - provide backup - then I'll be sure to listen.

carnage-runner

carnage-runner

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.

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But we are reffering to a god. Someone of mass importance to the plot line. Every physical/mental aspect of each god has been picked apart. (I remember the talks of Menzies Spikes lasting days) 6 eyes on a god, should have some significance. Maybe this is a new post. I'll start a new thread discussing physical attributes of gods.? Or is that already out there somewherE?

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

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As far as I know, physical aspects of gods do not have a thread - and seeing how I went through every thread in this forum, I would know.

I do have comments on the physical aspect thing, but I shall leave that to your thread.

Neo Atomisk

Neo Atomisk

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2008

State College, Pennsylvania, United States

Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]

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I believe what carnage is trying to say is that things with 6 eyes could be followers of abaddon. Similar to the way dryders and insects have many legs, similar to arachia.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

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Uhhh, Neo. It is known that Titans - which have 6 eyes - follow Abaddon, and the Orrian Undead were caused by Abaddon's tainted magic. Other things with 6 eyes would be the Jade Armors, which is believed to have connections to Abaddon but nothing proven, and I think the Enchanted Armors have 6 eyes as well.

While not everything with 6 eyes follow Abaddon, most of Abaddon's followers have 6 eyes, or have representations of that.

But I don't think that is what is meant because Dwayna's followers don't have wings *don't say paragons do, just don't*, Not all of Grenth's followers have skull masks, etc. etc.

Also, Dryders are followers of Dhuum (however, I believe, as stated in my thread which I believe is where you got that Neo, that Arachnia is the source of the Dryders).

Hyper Cutter

Hyper Cutter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Knights of the White Eye [HINA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin View Post
and I think the Enchanted Armors have 6 eyes as well.
I don't think they do.

Kerwyn Nasilan

Kerwyn Nasilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2007

WHERE DO YOU THINK

W/

IF the eye represents the gods and the Mursatt made the original shrines and worshiped the gods, and they eventually abandoned the gods and tried to hide them from humans then the name "The Unseen" makes sense, as in not seen by the gods, not worshiping them.

draxynnic

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

The Unseen has already been explained. The Mursaat are able to hide themselves from sight - according to the game storyline, you have to be Ascended in order to be able to see them unless they choose to be seen (something that isn't actually represented in-game, as you can still fight the Mursaat normally if you bypass Ascension and get the Drok Run instead, but it is given as part of the reason the characters need to Ascend before they can fight the Mursaat), and they slay all but their most devoted worshippers that are allowed to see them. Thus they are Unseen for the simple reason that they do not allow themselves to be seen by mortals, not through any aspect of their relationships with the Old Gods.

sajuuk_khar

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2010

Mod Edit: I removed the "first find" and merged the second find with this thread
Recently i found two things that connect to things found by many players a long time ago.

Secondly in another currently Archived thread called "The Five Gods, Abaddon's taste for eyes, and the Temples of Grenth and Balthazar." they discuss a image which appears on several places including the temple of Grenth and Balthazar and on some Mursaat places. I have found another one of these symbols. In the third level of the Cathedral of Flames Right near the entrance is a strange statue with this symbol

what the implications of this are i cant really say but it does lead to the fact that WHOEVER or whatever made the temples of Grenth and Balthazar had some had in the charr homelands which would mean they had a Tyria Continent wide stretch of existence. If anymore of these places with the eye exist i don't know but given the fact its on 3 separate locations from the Charr Homenalds to Lornar Pass to The Wilds we can see that the makers of these places had a great grasp in some bygone age.

agrios

agrios

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

South America

Naked Stalkers of America[Nude]

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I believe Abby's eyes thing is a visual metaphor.

The eye is a symbol of knowledge. Its tru the vision the most of knowledge is passed on, mostly by books.

Since he has a lot of eyes, one for each god, he watches all and every realm and its inhabitants. Learning everything from it.

His taste for eyes? Since knowledge and secrets can increase one's power, the way to hinder one from obtaining them is to strip he/she of vision. When he "eats" their eyes, he also learns theirs secrets and absorbs their power, becoming stronger and preventing others to do so.

If I'm right in my theories, Abby was imprisoned because he was getting greedy and power hungry, and, given time, he would discover a way to overthrow all the gods. So, the five others joined forces and didn't let that happen.

Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

N/

We know why Abaddon was imprisoned. It came from the Taiwanese site which has been removed, luckily we got a fan-translation of it (though exact words used may be incorrect out of human error).

The exact fan-translation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanSola
I haven't been around much, so no clue if the English-speaking/reading community already learned of this. Anyways, the following is info from NCTaiwan (http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/gameInfo/intro_03.asp):

(first three paragraphs are generic stuff about Elona that we already know about, so I didn't translate them. Starting from the fourth paragraph).

The nemisis of Campaign Three is the forgotten sixth god of creation - Abbadon. He and his five other brethens: Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Grenth created this world and the creatures. Abbadon's original job is to rule over knowledge and water, but soon he became everyone's abyss of pain and nightmare.

Abbadon originally represented the gods to give the precious magic to the sentinent races. But due to his limitless giving, it causes humans and the other races to abuse this gift. Thus, the other gods of creation attempted to use the bloodstone to split his power into four great elements, to suppress Abbadon's magic so it doesn't get abused. Abbadon's of course not happy, but the other 5 gods ignored his opposition. Angered, Abbadon gathered his strongest followers, the Margonites, to attack the weak spot of the Rift (not sure if this actually means The Rift, it literally said "world gap/rift/fissure" in Mandarin). He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty. Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again. The location of his battle with the five gods became known as the "Mouth of Torment" (literal translation: Torment's Mouth, not suer what official English will be).

After taking out Abbadon, the five gods also routed the Margonites. Additionally, they attempted to remove Abbadon's name from all monuments and holy scrolls, so that Abbadon will be forgotten by the people. (PanSola's note: eh, so how come there's still a LOCATION named Abbadon's Mouth???)

Nowadays, civilized nations only worship the Five gods, but a group of pagans secretely follow what they refer to as the Sixth god - a god who lost his power long ago. The pagans deeply believe this legend: thounds of years ago, their spiritual vanguard the Margonites had a sad but vailent battle in northern Elona, the power of the battle swept through the plains and turn it into a wasteland, which people nowadays know as the Crystal Desert. The Margonites back then used the power given by the sixth god to wreck hovac, destroy shrines, defile holy places, and killed everything in their path. Even though they had strong divine power to back them, the Margonites finally could not escape the fate of being destroyed. Legend says the sixth god finally is imprisioned in the Realm of Torment. Now some of the wise have noticed signs that says the fallen god might be returning to this world to wreck hovak again. Even though his name has been erased from all historical scrools and monuments, it isn't the end of the story. His loyal servents has been sharpening their blades, practicing their spells, preparing to welcome back the god that has been forgotten and abandoned. They continue to believe, just like night follows the day, He will eventually return to this world. The Margonites bring their will which obeys the great evil power, and paitently wait for the day of Nightfall.

agrios

agrios

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

South America

Naked Stalkers of America[Nude]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes View Post
We know why Abaddon was imprisoned. It came from the Taiwanese site which has been removed, luckily we got a fan-translation of it (though exact words used may be incorrect out of human error).

The exact fan-translation:
Well.. I didnt know that. Thx for the info.

But I still think my theory of eating eyes suitable with the lore and domain of Abby.